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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 0:58:47 GMT
In Christianity at least the soul is the "essence of you" that lives on forever. This raises so many questions and all you will ever get is fuzzy answers that make very little sense.
What the heck is the "essence" of you? ME is the the term for the whole of me at every moment throughout my life and can be changed drastically depending on what happens throughout my life. So what part of me is living on? Just the best parts of me? Well, if that is the case then it isn't really me that is in Heaven.
How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body.
What the heck does your soul do in Heaven for all eternity?
People like the idea of being with their loved ones forever, but they really don't think this through.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 3:30:10 GMT
I see soul as the voice we use inside our heads. Well of course, but that is just giving a different label to something we know we experience. I have no problem using the term "soul" that way, but that isn't what most theists think of as the soul.
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Post by mystery on Aug 3, 2021 4:05:28 GMT
Your OP is clearly geared toward Christians, not theists in general, but I'll answer anyway.
I personally see the soul as the spark of the divine within each of us. I believe in reincarnation as a way for us to gain depth and wisdom through experience. I even tend to categorize people I know in real life by their soul ages. For me, they're very easy to read. Younger souls tend to be shallow and materialistic, lack much character or insight into life, and they usually prefer to follow the crowd. The older souls are not materialistic, they usually are not very good followers, they are very grounded and have more tolerance and wisdom than others. It's no better or worse to be one or the other, just like it's not better or worse to be a child or an old person. It's just where we're at at, and we're all still learning and growing.
As for what happens when we get off the incarnation merry-go-round, who knows. Maybe there are other jobs to do, other things to learn, other mountains to climb. I don't think people just sit on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. I tend to think that the ultimate goal is to join back with the godhead, but it doesn't really matter. The main objective for right now is to focus on this life, to learn all we can while we're here, and to try to become better human beings. That's something I wish all people would do, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 4:40:42 GMT
Your OP is clearly geared toward Christians, not theists in general, but I'll answer anyway. I personally see the soul as the spark of the divine within each of us. I believe in reincarnation as a way for us to gain depth and wisdom through experience. I even tend to categorize people I know in real life by their soul ages. For me, they're very easy to read. Younger souls tend to be shallow and materialistic, lack much character or insight into life, and they usually prefer to follow the crowd. The older souls are not materialistic, they usually are not very good followers, they are very grounded and have more tolerance and wisdom than others. It's no better or worse to be one or the other, just like it's not better or worse to be a child or an old person. It's just where we're at at, and we're all still learning and growing. As for what happens when we get off the incarnation merry-go-round, who knows. Maybe there are other jobs to do, other things to learn, other mountains to climb. I don't think people just sit on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. I tend to think that the ultimate goal is to join back with the godhead, but it doesn't really matter. The main objective for right now is to focus on this life, to learn all we can while we're here, and to try to become better human beings. That's something I wish all people would do, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof.It is and isn't. The title of the thread is the broad question about souls and the part about Christians in my OP is specific. I am more interested in one then the other though. I'm glad you answered, since I am asking everybody. I can get on board with the part at the bottom, but that is about all I can get on board with regarding what you wrote. It would be neat if re-incarnation is a thing. That makes a lot more sense to me than what Christians view as a soul. Are you a theist though? Re-incarnation doesn't require the belief that a God exists.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 5:52:23 GMT
Well of course, but that is just giving a different label to something we know we experience. I have no problem using the term "soul" that way, but that isn't what most theists think of as the soul. Does your soul do anything outside of your consciousness? Is there a you and your soul? I don't use the term soul at all.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 6:39:56 GMT
I don't use the term soul at all. I’m confused. Why did you ask a series of questions about it then? Because most people do use the term and think it is something that exists that is separate from the consciousness and body, but also part of it. I am asking because it makes no sense to me and pointing out why I don't believe any such thing exists. I am someone who is interested in other people's opinions and POV about everything.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 7:22:01 GMT
Because most people do use the term and think it is something that exists that is separate from the consciousness and body, but also part of it. I am asking because it makes no sense to me and pointing out why I don't believe any such thing exists. I am someone who is interested in other people's opinions and POV about everything. In the Christian tradition a soul is the part of you that lives on after death to either go to two or three specific places in the afterlife: heaven, hell, or purgatory (for some Christians). Per dogma, the soul is created at conception along with your physical body and takes the punishment or reward for your struggles with sin in this life. I don’t think the soul exists in the churches’ eyes for much else. It’s interesting in our folklore and pop culture stories how demonic creatures like vampires and witches have lost their souls forever and their evil stems from having no moral center. However, there is no Christian doctrine regarding disembodied spirits, good or evil, who didn’t make it to any of the three afterlife locations. Judaism has a less specific map of the afterlife and doesn’t define the soul other than this is what God breathes into a human that gives him or her life. There’s no specific doctrines in Judaism that says what happens to the soul at death. Within both traditions are numerous folk rationalizations and anecdotes about disembodied ghosts lingering after death; spirits and demons; attributes of paganism that get confused with actual religious teachings about the soul. I am aware of all that. I am asking those specific types to explain how a soul can possibly exist in actuality. That specific question is a challenge to justify their belief that such a thing exists. I am just asking everyone else more broadly what their idea of a soul is, because I find people intriguing. Like mystery, who said he believes it is a part of us that goes through multiple stages across different lifetimes.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 8:40:54 GMT
In Christianity at least the soul is the "essence of you" that lives on forever. This raises so many questions and all you will ever get is fuzzy answers that make very little sense. What the heck is the "essence" of you? ME is the the term for the whole of me at every moment throughout my life and can be changed drastically depending on what happens throughout my life. So what part of me is living on? Just the best parts of me? Well, if that is the case then it isn't really me that is in Heaven. How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body. What the heck does your soul do in Heaven for all eternity? People like the idea of being with their loved ones forever, but they really don't think this through. In "What Dreams May Come" (great Robin Williams movie if you haven't seen it), there's a scene that touches on this question. The idea was that if you lose a leg, you're still you. If you lose both of your legs and your arms, you're still you. Etc etc. So if you aren't defined by your physical body, what are you? Just a brain with appendages is probably the best answer, but still somehow not very satisfying. After all, just as with any machine, we are more than the sum of our parts. I dislike "What Dreams May Come."
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 8:47:07 GMT
In "What Dreams May Come" (great Robin Williams movie if you haven't seen it), there's a scene that touches on this question. The idea was that if you lose a leg, you're still you. If you lose both of your legs and your arms, you're still you. Etc etc. So if you aren't defined by your physical body, what are you? Just a brain with appendages is probably the best answer, but still somehow not very satisfying. After all, just as with any machine, we are more than the sum of our parts. I dislike "What Dreams May Come." I had something more to add, which is why I deleted the post. Sorry about that. But you don't seem interested in the actual topic anyway, so it's all good.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 8:49:26 GMT
I dislike "What Dreams May Come." I had something more to add, which is why I deleted the post. Sorry about that. But you don't seem interested in the actual topic anyway, so it's all good. I believe we are just the sum of our parts, but we are under the illusion that we are more. Did I offend you or something?
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 8:59:39 GMT
The main objective for right now is to focus on this life, to learn all we can while we're here, and to try to become better human beings. Isn't that pretty much Christianity in a nutshell? How you treat others is what makes you a bad/good/better human being, and Christianity is all about how you treat others. Even your enemies. I guess the problem here is the overall lack of desire to be a better human being.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 9:01:07 GMT
I had something more to add, which is why I deleted the post. Sorry about that. But you don't seem interested in the actual topic anyway, so it's all good. I believe we are just the sum of our parts, but we are under the illusion that we are more. Did I offend you or something? No, you dismissed me. No worries. I'm not offended and I don't mind. Cheers. youtu.be/rA5qnZUXcqo
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 9:02:02 GMT
I believe we are just the sum of our parts, but we are under the illusion that we are more. Did I offend you or something? No, you dismissed me. No worries. I'm not offended and I don't mind. Cheers. youtu.be/rA5qnZUXcqo I didn't mean it that way. I'm sorry. What I mean is that consciousness is what makes us who we are and is very complicated, but anything else is just speculation imo. I am not yet convinced it is something else besides an emergence from a brain. If that is all you mean and you don't think the "soul" is something separate in some spiritual realm that was somewhere before we were born or goes somewhere when we die then we are on the same page. I misunderstood what you meant by the whole being more than the sum of it's parts. Now I follow. I am watching the video btw.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 9:24:20 GMT
I believe we are just the sum of our parts, but we are under the illusion that we are more. Did I offend you or something? No, you dismissed me. No worries. I'm not offended and I don't mind. Cheers. youtu.be/rA5qnZUXcqo I think I know what the video is saying, which is already what I assumed. Though I don't know if I understand it fully. My brain doesn't click with stuff the way many people's does. Not as fast anyway. So are you calling the soul and consciousness the same thing? I don't think that is what most people mean when they say the soul. Why not just call it consciousness? Then there wouldn't be any confusion.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 9:37:32 GMT
I know what the video is saying, which is already what I assumed. So are you calling the soul and consciousness the same thing? I don't think that is what most people mean when they say the soul. Why not just call it consciousness? Then there wouldn't be any confusion. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against the existence of a soul or a so-called afterlife. You're asking for thoughts on what the soul may be, which presumes that existence. CS Lewis said: Maybe it's qualia, but everyone understands what we mean when we refer to the "soul" or "essence" or "id". Here, Lewis calls it "the central part of you, the part that chooses." I'd say that if there is something that continues on after the body dies, that's as good a description as any other: The part that chooses.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 9:46:19 GMT
I know what the video is saying, which is already what I assumed. So are you calling the soul and consciousness the same thing? I don't think that is what most people mean when they say the soul. Why not just call it consciousness? Then there wouldn't be any confusion. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against the existence of a soul or a so-called afterlife. You're asking for thoughts on what the soul may be, which presumes that existence. CS Lewis said: Maybe it's qualia, but everyone understands what we mean when we refer to the "soul" or "essence" or "id". Here, Lewis calls it "the central part of you, the part that chooses." I'd say that if there is something that continues on after the body dies, that's as good a description as any other: The part that chooses. No they don't, because I didn't. The "soul" is something that doesn't rely on something material to sustain it is what most theists believe as far as I can tell. What reason do we have to believe that the consciousness could go somewhere after death? If it entered a different brain that was born in a different body to different circumstances, it would no longer be the essence of ME. C.S. Lewis is just taking something and saying it in a way that is poetic.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 9:54:47 GMT
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against the existence of a soul or a so-called afterlife. You're asking for thoughts on what the soul may be, which presumes that existence. CS Lewis said: Maybe it's qualia, but everyone understands what we mean when we refer to the "soul" or "essence" or "id". Here, Lewis calls it "the central part of you, the part that chooses." I'd say that if there is something that continues on after the body dies, that's as good a description as any other: The part that chooses. No they don't. The "soul" is something that doesn't rely on something material to sustain it is what most theists believe as far as I can tell. What reason do we have to believe that the consciousness could go somewhere after death? If it entered a different brain that was born in a different body to different circumstances, it would no longer be the essence of ME. C.S. Lewis is just taking something and making it sound poetic as far as I can tell. We are all blank slates when we are conceived. I mean, sure, we're born with some innate qualities (the instinct to survive, for example), but I don't think those are what defines who we are as individuals. If the existence of our consciences precedes the existence of our physical selves, then perhaps we signed up for this. Maybe life is a thrill ride for the soul. lol
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 10:12:41 GMT
No they don't. The "soul" is something that doesn't rely on something material to sustain it is what most theists believe as far as I can tell. What reason do we have to believe that the consciousness could go somewhere after death? If it entered a different brain that was born in a different body to different circumstances, it would no longer be the essence of ME. C.S. Lewis is just taking something and making it sound poetic as far as I can tell. We are all blank slates when we are conceived. I mean, sure, we're born with some innate qualities (the instinct to survive, for example), but I don't think those are what defines who we are as individuals. If the existence of our consciences precedes the existence of our physical selves, then perhaps we signed up for this. Maybe life is a thrill ride for the soul. lol Of course genetics alone aren't what defines us as individuals. Our experiences are what defines us as individuals. The part in bold is neat idea, but I have no reason to believe it. Many people believe that it is something more than a product of the brain and our experiences, but I see no reason to believe that. We change through our lives, so what part of us is moving on? What about someone who suffers brain damage at age 15 and loses their memory? They are no longer the same person they were before. So which part goes on when they die? The personality before the brain damage or the personality after the brain damage? That is what people who believe in a literal Heaven can't answer in a way that makes any sense. That is what I am mainly asking about.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 10:29:57 GMT
We are all blank slates when we are conceived. I mean, sure, we're born with some innate qualities (the instinct to survive, for example), but I don't think those are what defines who we are as individuals. If the existence of our consciences precedes the existence of our physical selves, then perhaps we signed up for this. Maybe life is a thrill ride for the soul. lolOf course genetics alone aren't what defines us as individuals. Our experiences are what defines us as individuals. The part in bold is neat idea, but I have no reason to believe it. Many people believe that it is something more than a product of the brain and our experiences, but I see no reason to believe that. We change through our lives, so what part of us is moving on? What about someone who suffers brain damage at age 15 and loses their memory? They are no longer the same person they were before. So which part goes on when they die? The personality before the brain damage or the personality after the brain damage? That is what people who believe in a literal Heaven can't answer in a way that makes any sense. That is what I am mainly asking about. Nobody has a definitive answer for you. Sorry.
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Post by Winter_King on Aug 3, 2021 10:30:05 GMT
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