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Post by Aj_June on Sept 18, 2021 7:55:01 GMT
If there is any Muslim here I have a question. Can worshipping Jesus, get you to heaven? Can a pious Jew who follows Judaism attain heaven after death?
If the answer to above questions is No then isn't Allah, a special God of Muslims only?
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Post by Isapop on Sept 18, 2021 12:54:41 GMT
If the answer to above questions is No then isn't Allah, a special God of Muslims only? Why should that follow? I can believe some universal sovereign exists who demands that you worship him correctly to attain a reward. He is the sovereign of everyone, but not everyone is worshiping him correctly.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 18, 2021 13:06:33 GMT
If the answer to above questions is No then isn't Allah, a special God of Muslims only? Why should that follow? I can believe some universal sovereign exists who demands that you worship him correctly to attain a reward. He is the sovereign of everyone, but not everyone is worshiping him correctly. "Muslims worship the god of Abraham, the same god Christians and Jews worship," But this god gives salvation to Muslims and not Christians/Jews. If the later is true then effectively Christians and Jews are not worshipping the same god (God with exact qualities). They are worshipping a God whose teachings have been corrupted by their current followers. The God as described by Christianity/Jews is not the correct one. But the God of Christianity/Jews as should be according to Islam is the correct one . Effectively the correct God is not any God of Abraham but only the one whose qualities are espoused in Quran.
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Post by shadrack on Sept 18, 2021 13:51:36 GMT
Why should that follow? I can believe some universal sovereign exists who demands that you worship him correctly to attain a reward. He is the sovereign of everyone, but not everyone is worshiping him correctly. "Muslims worship the god of Abraham, the same god Christians and Jews worship," But this god gives salvation to Muslims and not Christians/Jews. If the later is true then effectively Christians and Jews are not worshipping the same god (God with exact qualities). They are worshipping a God whose teachings have been corrupted by their current followers. The God as described by Christianity/Jews is not the correct one. But the God of Christianity/Jews as should be according to Islam is the correct one . Effectively the correct God is not any God of Abraham but only the one whose qualities are espoused in Quran. No, I'm with Isapop on this one. If two different people (or groups) ascribe different characteristics to an individual, it does not mean they're talking about two different individuals.
For example, take Bob Smith. Bob is in his 50s, has a family, and runs a small business. Ask Bob's daughter and one of his employees to pick the three words that best describe him. Bob's daughter and his employee will not choose the same three words, but that doesn't mean they're talking about two different Bob Smiths.
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Post by Isapop on Sept 18, 2021 14:15:21 GMT
Why should that follow? I can believe some universal sovereign exists who demands that you worship him correctly to attain a reward. He is the sovereign of everyone, but not everyone is worshiping him correctly. "Muslims worship the god of Abraham, the same god Christians and Jews worship," But this god gives salvation to Muslims and not Christians/Jews. If the later is true then effectively Christians and Jews are not worshipping the same god (God with exact qualities). No, Muslims just understand "God" while others misunderstand him. My (hypothetical) father is a couch potato who hates the outdoors. For his birthday, I give him a large screen TV. My brother gives him a tent and fishing rod. I understand my father and please him; my brother doesn't understand and doesn't please him. But we both have the same father.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Sept 18, 2021 14:59:23 GMT
It is the same God.
What many people don`t understand that Allah is not a name, its just the Arabic word for God just as Dios is the Spanish word for God.
Either way they all belive in something that probably don`t exist. And if there is a God, there is no reason that God is as people belive. Frankly it could just as well be that the Ancient Greeks had it right or the Hindus or the Buddhist or some long forgotten religion as Christians, Jews or muslims.
Its just arrogance that makes people belive that their religion is the correct one. And most people ignore that their belive is based on where they live and how they grew up. If you are born in with muslim Iran you will most likely be a muslim but if the same person was born in Mexico with Catholic the same person would most likely be a Catholic.
That is what people ignore that your faith in the vaste majority of cases is geography and culture.
Religious people will deny this, but that is a fact. If it was not than why do the vaste majority of religious people have the same faith as their parents, country and region ?
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 18, 2021 16:47:45 GMT
"Muslims worship the god of Abraham, the same god Christians and Jews worship," But this god gives salvation to Muslims and not Christians/Jews. If the later is true then effectively Christians and Jews are not worshipping the same god (God with exact qualities). They are worshipping a God whose teachings have been corrupted by their current followers. The God as described by Christianity/Jews is not the correct one. But the God of Christianity/Jews as should be according to Islam is the correct one . Effectively the correct God is not any God of Abraham but only the one whose qualities are espoused in Quran. No, I'm with Isapop on this one. If two different people (or groups) ascribe different characteristics to an individual, it does not mean they're talking about two different individuals.
For example, take Bob Smith. Bob is in his 50s, has a family, and runs a small business. Ask Bob's daughter and one of his employees to pick the three words that best describe him. Bob's daughter and his employee will not choose the same three words, but that doesn't mean they're talking about two different Bob Smiths.
It is apples to oranges to make reference point dependent comparison to beings that are proclaimed to be eternal (unchangeable) with humans who are mortal. The word "same" means exactly alike, same in respect of every quality/feature/attribute. We are not talking about different names of same god (ex- Ahura mazda is also called Taronish). We are talking about qualities of same God. When can you say that your God is same as that other God? If you say that qualities of your God is the same as that of other God but just the name you use to refer to that God is different. For example if a middle eastern Christian refers to God as Allah then his "Allah" is same as God of Christians. But if the God that you are following (also an unchangeable being according to you) has a different set of qualities than the other God then you are essentially following a different God. Saying that he is the same God as the other when both have different set of qualities is incorrect. More than that when you when you make such claims then you are most likely also omitting further explanation that you are following the misunderstood version of my God.
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Sept 19, 2021 7:23:43 GMT
In Islam, Jews and Christians believe in the same God as Muslims but do so in a wrong way. 5:139 (Hilali-Khan). Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to the Jews and Christians), “Dispute you with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders).”I'm not a Muslim, but I know that Muslims who want to sugarcoat their religon quote this verse to make it seem inclusive: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve - 5:69 Generally, it is believed that Christians and Jews go to hell. That's why Sahih International translates it in the past tense: Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieveChristians and Jews are cursed in the Muslim prayer: 1:6. Guide us to the Straight Way
1:7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). - Hilali-KhanIt is true that Allah, if treated like a generic noun, which comes from Aramaic means God and can be used to defer to any deity. However, Allah is also the personal name for God in Islam. The Arabic intensive is more suited to express Allah's attributes than the superlative degree in English. - Qur'an, Yusuf Ali, footnote 19 - Nothing else has this name; it is not found in female or plural form.
- Some scholars say this is His greatest and most complete name.
- It has three possible meanings: the One who deserves to be worshipped, the One whose existence is a must (He has always been and always shall be), and the Unique One.web.archive.org/web/20080410224041/http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html |
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Sept 19, 2021 9:30:15 GMT
In Islam, Jews and Christians believe in the same God as Muslims but do so in a wrong way. 5:139 (Hilali-Khan). Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to the Jews and Christians), “Dispute you with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders).”I'm not a Muslim, but I know that Muslims who want to sugarcoat their religon quote this verse to make it seem inclusive: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve - 5:69 Generally, it is believed that Christians and Jews go to hell. That's why Sahih International translates it in the past tense: Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieveChristians and Jews are cursed in the Muslim prayer: 1:6. Guide us to the Straight Way
1:7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). - Hilali-KhanIt is true that Allah, if treated like a generic noun, which comes from Aramaic means God and can be used to defer to any deity. However, Allah is also the personal name for God in Islam. The Arabic intensive is more suited to express Allah's attributes than the superlative degree in English. - Qur'an, Yusuf Ali, footnote 19 - Nothing else has this name; it is not found in female or plural form.
- Some scholars say this is His greatest and most complete name.
- It has three possible meanings: the One who deserves to be worshipped, the One whose existence is a must (He has always been and always shall be), and the Unique One.web.archive.org/web/20080410224041/http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.htmlAnd good Christian believes Jews, Muslim, and just about everyone else goes to hell who does not accept the Lord Jesus as his or her personal savior. It is very, very, exclusive and the punishment is more evil than what sends you there. Yes, this is also true. "Neither knoweth any man the Father save the Son
and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him."—Matt. 11:27 I don't usually meet Christians who make an attempt at claiming otherwise, though.
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Post by Power Ranger on Sept 19, 2021 10:05:58 GMT
In the way in which the Branch Davidians worship the same God. Many black supremacist cults and also white supremacist groups also believe in the same God. It doesn’t unite the religions in any way.
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Sept 19, 2021 10:52:45 GMT
Yes, this is also true. "Neither knoweth any man the Father save the Son
and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him."—Matt. 11:27 I don't usually meet Christians who make an attempt at claiming otherwise, though. How many Muslims have you met who tell you about God doesn't automatically send non-Muslims to hell? I have met some of those. Especially Ahmadiyya Muslims claim it. www.huffpost.com/entry/in-islam-heaven-is-not-exclusive_b_1447837 |
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Post by Hnefahogg on Sept 19, 2021 11:30:17 GMT
And they probably believe it too. Why wouldn't they? Seventh Day Adventists, the Christian denomination Ben Carson belongs to, teaches there is no Hell at all. There are several Christian churches that teach this. Islam, just like Christianity and Judaism have differing denominations that teach differing theologies. Fair enough. |
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2021 15:32:23 GMT
The Hebrew corollary for Allah is Eloah. Actually, Jews address God as HaShem (Heb: "The Name").
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Post by clusium on Sept 19, 2021 15:34:27 GMT
And they probably believe it too. Why wouldn't they? Seventh Day Adventists, the Christian denomination Ben Carson belongs to, teaches there is no Hell at all. There are several Christian churches that teach this. Islam, just like Christianity and Judaism have differing denominations that teach differing theologies. Pretty interesting, because the SDAs that I have encountered seemed to believe in it.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 21, 2021 4:47:24 GMT
Yes.
Those 3 are the Abrahamic religions and they all are referring to the same God.
They just don't agree on what God's message is.
Christians can't even agree on what God's message is, which is why there are so many different sects of Christianity.
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Post by Cody™ on Sept 22, 2021 11:07:24 GMT
Not the same God. Different personal names, different characteristics, contradictory concepts of paradise, contradictory natures, contradictory plans of salvation etc.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Sept 22, 2021 11:37:38 GMT
Not the same God. Different personal names, different characteristics, contradictory concepts of paradise, contradictory natures, contradictory plans of salvation etc. But both claim to worship the same god that Abraham did - is one side lying/mistaken?
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Post by Cody™ on Sept 22, 2021 12:19:53 GMT
Not the same God. Different personal names, different characteristics, contradictory concepts of paradise, contradictory natures, contradictory plans of salvation etc. But both claim to worship the same god that Abraham did - is one side lying/mistaken? Muslims claim to worship the same God yes. But when we look at the two sources and their presentations of God, there are way too many irreconcilable differences to be speaking of the same entity. Example. The God of the bible is a spirit being by his nature. The God of Islam is not a spirit being as spirit is not one of his personal divine attributes. |
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Sept 22, 2021 14:34:09 GMT
But both claim to worship the same god that Abraham did - is one side lying/mistaken? Muslims claim to worship the same God yes. But when we look at the two sources and their presentations of God, there are way too many irreconcilable differences to be speaking of the same entity. Example. The God of the bible is a spirit being by his nature. The God of Islam is not a spirit being as spirit is not one of his personal divine attributes. Couldn't that still be the same God though - the two sides just massively disagreeing about his attributes. Then again I guess there's not much practical difference between saying Christians and Muslims believe in a different God, and Christians and Muslims believe in the same God but just believe massively different things about it. |
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Post by Cody™ on Sept 22, 2021 16:35:25 GMT
Muslims claim to worship the same God yes. But when we look at the two sources and their presentations of God, there are way too many irreconcilable differences to be speaking of the same entity. Example. The God of the bible is a spirit being by his nature. The God of Islam is not a spirit being as spirit is not one of his personal divine attributes. Couldn't that still be the same God though - the two sides just massively disagreeing about his attributes. Then again I guess there's not much practical difference between saying Christians and Muslims believe in a different God, and Christians and Muslims believe in the same God but just believe massively different things about it. How can the same God be a spirit by nature and not a spirit by nature?
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