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Post by shannondegroot on Oct 2, 2021 18:49:35 GMT
their life is coming to an end, were they ever truly an atheist?
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Post by Sarge on Oct 3, 2021 0:12:33 GMT
No. If a Christian sins, did they ever really believe in Jesus?
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Oct 3, 2021 9:55:57 GMT
No
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Post by Stammerhead on Oct 3, 2021 11:54:25 GMT
If someone starts talking to the curtains before they die were they ever really sane?
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Post by shannondegroot on Oct 3, 2021 13:49:45 GMT
If someone starts talking to the curtains before they die were they ever really sane? They'd have to proclaim their sanity first of all. Second of all no one ever said we can't go insane.
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Post by shannondegroot on Oct 3, 2021 13:54:21 GMT
No. If a Christian sins, did they ever really believe in Jesus? But a Christian is allowed to make mistakes, that's when they go to Jesus for support, help, forgiveness, to get back n the right track. We are told we are not perfect from the beginning.
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Post by shannondegroot on Oct 3, 2021 13:57:16 GMT
When we "talk to God," mostly we are talking to ourselves as "God" tends to fit our expectations using our human facilities. This is why so many folks realize God/Allah/Yahweh always agrees with their particular religion and politics. You can call it a "higher power," if you like, because even an atheist may want to transcend to being a better, more aware person. A atheist can talk to any imaginary person they want, but once they refer to God, they admit that such a being may exist and they immediately become frauds.
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Post by Stammerhead on Oct 3, 2021 13:59:56 GMT
If someone starts talking to the curtains before they die were they ever really sane? They'd have to proclaim their sanity first of all. Second of all no one ever said we can't go insane. Faith is a weird thing that I don’t quite understand. I had a brief period of believing when I was a teen but ultimately I couldn’t feel anything to sustain it up and am now a non believer. Did I actually believe in God or was I just carried along with the experience of spending a week at Bible camp? By the way, I’m not mad and the voices in my head agree with me.
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 3, 2021 16:41:03 GMT
their life is coming to an end, were they ever truly an atheist? I think yes the person would be an atheist. If the person didn't believe in god for last many years of his life but fear of death at the very end moment of life evoked a last minute response for god then as per me the person was still an atheist. Fear situations make us do things that we don't do in normal situations. Others can differ with me but I judge a person's belief by how the person behaves/believes in ordinary/normal circumstances.
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Post by Sarge on Oct 3, 2021 17:21:49 GMT
No. If a Christian sins, did they ever really believe in Jesus? But a Christian is allowed to make mistakes, that's when they go to Jesus for support, help, forgiveness, to get back n the right track. We are told we are not perfect from the beginning.
You are proposing a double standard ... that Christians can be weak, but atheists must be perfect in their commitment. You expect more from others than from yourself.
Matthew 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 12, 2021 6:53:23 GMT
Yes.
Also depends on what you mean. The "no atheists in foxholes" is a bad way of propping up God, even if it could be proved that every atheist starts praying in the end. This is just an act of desperation when you are terrified of Death. Pascal's Wager is something an atheist could take up too, because atheism is just not being convinced that a God exists. There are many people who would do anything to avoid death and possible eternal torment. Hedging your bets by pretending to believe. That would possibly make them a hypocrite, but still an atheist.
If you mean that an atheists literally starts talking to God near the end all of a sudden (like God revealed itself to that person at the end) then this would be a case of an atheist having good reason to believe that God exists at that point and then no longer being an atheist.
There is also the case that in circumstances like the one you are asking about that people aren't thinking straight anymore.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 12, 2021 7:03:41 GMT
No. If a Christian sins, did they ever really believe in Jesus?Christian and atheist is typically a false comparison. General atheism is a response to theism, not a specific religion. The rules don't work the same way for atheists as they do for Christians, because atheism has no rules. They only way someone can be a false atheist is if they believe a God exists. Yes, if a Christian sins (if their is no God it is impossible to sin btw) they still believe in Jesus. I mean, by definition they do. Especially considering the Bible implies that sin is unavoidable. Now just going around sinning and not trying to restrain yourself or make penance is a different story, but they could still believe some the Christian God exists. They would just be rejecting the teachings of Jesus. You are talking about hypocrisy and that is something different.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 12, 2021 7:44:13 GMT
their life is coming to an end, were they ever truly an atheist? Depends on what type of atheists you are talking about. If you are talking about an atheist who claims to know for an absolute certainty that no God exists, then I might agree they were never that specific type of atheist. I think claiming to know the unknowable is nonsensical in the first place. I am someone who believes nothing can be known to an absolute certainty besides logical contradictions. Definitional things, like there is no such thing as a square circle. 1 + 1 doesn't equal 5, we can know this for an absolute certainty. A rock is a rock and not a bear. An atheist can't be a an atheist and also believe a God exists. That is the only thing that would make an atheist not an atheist, because it is a definitional contradiction. Someone either believes a God exists or they don't. There is no other option. I do believe their are people who are confused as to what they believe though, especially if they are indoctrinated at a young age. These are people I might say aren't atheists or theists, because they are in a constant limbo about what they believe. There are people who go back and forth between believing and not believing and that can be a very confusing place to be.
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Post by drystyx on Oct 12, 2021 19:15:18 GMT
You'll have to ask God that question, buddy. He's right over there.
No, not over that way, over there! He's right over there! Look where I'm pointing! He's over there!
No, you keep looking the wrong way, he's over there! Now, he moved on you. He's over there now. You keep missing him!
Well, in answer to your question, the problem is the question. No one is an atheist or a theist. Those are nouns. No one is a noun. We like to think of ourselves as nouns because of mirrors and photos and stuff, but we're either verbs or adverbs. So, the point is that since you constantly change over your life, the organism you live in, your noun, will cease at some point. In fact that organism changes more than you do, along with all the organisms inside it, so the question is different.
If a verb of proclamation changes as they feel the end of the organism to sustain the senses the verb acts through, was that verb always in the original state of proclamation?
Well, the verb that proclaims one thing may wind up separate from the verb that proclaims something else. Hopefully, the useless verbs are annihilated, leaving the person only with the useful verbs. A lot of people will be really small verbs in Heaven. Maybe I'll be a small verb. But at least I won't be a "Verbal".
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Post by Sarge on Oct 13, 2021 5:24:29 GMT
No. If a Christian sins, did they ever really believe in Jesus?Christian and atheist is typically a false comparison. General atheism is a response to theism, not a specific religion. The rules don't work the same way for atheists as they do for Christians, because atheism has no rules. They only way someone can be a false atheist is if they believe a God exists. Yes, if a Christian sins (if their is no God it is impossible to sin btw) they still believe in Jesus. I mean, by definition they do. Especially considering the Bible implies that sin is unavoidable. Now just going around sinning and not trying to restrain yourself or make penance is a different story, but they could still believe some the Christian God exists. They would just be rejecting the teachings of Jesus. You are talking about hypocrisy and that is something different.
The comparison is apt. Both questions are about conviction. When Christians accept Jesus as their savior, they ask for forgiveness and all their prior sins are washed away, they get a clean slate. If you sin again, you can get forgiveness, that's the big draw of Christianity, the get out of jail free card. But Jesus said, "Go, and sin no more," meaning don't sin. Most try to make excuses that Jesus didn't mean it, but it's a straightforward statement. Sin is a choice, giving in to desire. Avoiding sin means not acting on cravings for money, possessions, or flesh. If you break a human law, there is a chance of getting away with it, but there is zero chance of sinning and getting away with it. If you sin, God will know and you are at risk of eternal damnation until you ask for forgiveness. The consequences are steep, if you believe.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 13, 2021 6:14:48 GMT
Christian and atheist is typically a false comparison. General atheism is a response to theism, not a specific religion. The rules don't work the same way for atheists as they do for Christians, because atheism has no rules. They only way someone can be a false atheist is if they believe a God exists. Yes, if a Christian sins (if their is no God it is impossible to sin btw) they still believe in Jesus. I mean, by definition they do. Especially considering the Bible implies that sin is unavoidable. Now just going around sinning and not trying to restrain yourself or make penance is a different story, but they could still believe some the Christian God exists. They would just be rejecting the teachings of Jesus. You are talking about hypocrisy and that is something different.
The comparison is apt. Both questions are about conviction. When Christians accept Jesus as their savior, they ask for forgiveness and all their prior sins are washed away, they get a clean slate. If you sin again, you can get forgiveness, that's the big draw of Christianity, the get out of jail free card. But Jesus said, "Go, and sin no more," meaning don't sin. Most try to make excuses that Jesus didn't mean it, but it's a straightforward statement. Sin is a choice, giving in to desire. Avoiding sin means not acting on cravings for money, possessions, or flesh. If you break a human law, there is a chance of getting away with it, but there is zero chance of sinning and getting away with it. If you sin, God will know and you are at risk of eternal damnation until you ask for forgiveness. The consequences are steep, if you believe.
You said "If a Christian sins did they ever really believe in Jesus?" The answer is yes, because sinning is unavoidable. I mean the Bible says that we are fallen and needed Jesus to take on our sins. Him saying "don't sin" is just saying try to avoid sinning and ask for forgiveness if you do sin. Heck, there are some Christians who believe that once you accept Jesus that you are saved no matter what you do. I mean that comparing Christianity to atheism isn't an apt comparison. One has tenets and the other doesn't. There is nothing about atheism that says you have to stay true to anything. Religion is about conviction. Atheism and generic theism/deism aren't. That is just a fact. The only thing I can think is that we have different definitions of atheism. Anyone who doesn't believe a God exists is an atheist, that doesn't mean they are convinced no God exists, and fear and indoctrination are powerful things that stay with many people long after they stop believing. Not sure if you saw where I said I don't believe anything can be known to a certainty, that means that an atheist can cry out to a God they don't know for a certainty doesn't exist just to hedge their bets. That is the whole point of Pascal's wager. One of the arguments against that wager is that you can't fool God, so it is pointless for an atheist to pretend to believe just in case.
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Post by Sarge on Oct 14, 2021 23:32:25 GMT
I was mostly interested in Shannondegroot's answer because they asked the question and as expected there was a double standard at work which not very interesting. The rest of the arguments have been made a million times and it goes nowhere, I have my opinion, others have theirs, I can live with that.
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Post by Stammerhead on Nov 10, 2021 10:53:57 GMT
If someone starts talking to the curtains before they die were they ever really sane? Wake up, baby, it’s Curtains.
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Post by Stammerhead on Nov 10, 2021 14:53:23 GMT
If someone starts talking to the curtains before they die were they ever really sane? That doesn't address the topic. Hopefully I’ll think of a better answer before I die…
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