|
Post by shannondegroot on Oct 4, 2021 23:42:14 GMT
devout Christian and went through all the motions, just to please someone in their family or whatever and died, but secretly all their life was an Atheist, would they be allowed into God's Heaven?
|
|
|
Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Oct 5, 2021 4:51:45 GMT
No of course they wouldn't get into heaven, but neither would the Christian because Allah does not permit infidels to defile paradise.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 5, 2021 8:29:26 GMT
devout Christian and went through all the motions, just to please someone in their family or whatever and died, but secretly all their life was an Atheist, would they be allowed into God's Heaven? You can't fool God. You'd have better luck fooling yourself. However, I don't think it would be held against you if you were literally unable to believe. But then there's Romans 1: Presuming that believing in God's existence is what it means to have faith, I'm afraid the answer is probably no. In fact, you'd probably get an extra smite just for thinking you could outsmart him. lol
|
|
|
Post by Feologild Oakes on Oct 5, 2021 8:30:32 GMT
No of course they wouldn't get into heaven, but neither would the Christian because Allah does not permit infidels to defile paradise. You spelled Odin wrong and you spelled Valhalla wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Oct 5, 2021 12:56:12 GMT
devout Christian and went through all the motions, just to please someone in their family or whatever and died, but secretly all their life was an Atheist, would they be allowed into God's Heaven? You can't fool God. You'd have better luck fooling yourself. However, I don't think it would be held against you if you were literally unable to believe. But then there's Romans 1: Presuming that believing in God's existence is what it means to have faith, I'm afraid the answer is probably no. In fact, you'd probably get an extra smite just for thinking you could outsmart him. lol I don't think the OP describes a person trying to fool God. It's describing a person with their heart in the right place, one who doesn't believe in God but is willing to live his life in the way that God purportedly wants just on the off chance that God might exist. It does bring to mind Pascal's Wager.
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Oct 5, 2021 15:00:39 GMT
I don't think the OP describes a person trying to fool God. It's describing a person with their heart in the right place, one who doesn't believe in God but is willing to live his life in the way that God purportedly wants just on the off chance that God might exist. It does bring to mind Pascal's Wager. The OP said, “went through all the motions,” so there is an element of hypocrisy of engaging in false worship for appearances. So, if indeed the God of this meta-hypothetical is the jealous one, then no, that person is going to hell. But if God is the far less dogmatic one than his spokesmen on Earth claim he is, then yes, because the laidback hippy Jesus welcomes all. Yes, but he also said "just to please someone in their family or whatever", indicating less of an intent to fool God, and more to make somebody (family or whatever) happy. So it's someone being more selfless than selfish. Of course, in typical Christian theology, yeah, he's screwed.
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Oct 6, 2021 9:52:18 GMT
Is this a person who just passively doesn't think God exists or someone who actively (mentally) denies God's existence?
IOW...does he look at the world around him...his close relatives who claim to be Christians and who he's trying to please and conclude THEIR lives don't suggest they are in touch/communing with/have the power of a god? Maybe he looks at them and thinks...they're good people and good intentions aside, they just don't seem to have anything special about that would lead him to think THEY were in touch with a being 'that than which nothing greater can be conceived.'
Maybe he even thinks to ACTUALLY believe in the god his relatives claim to believe in might actually damn his soul because that god is obviously a false and powerless god and he fears going into eternity having whored after a false god like a Christian might view Islam or Hinduism.
Maybe he has faith that everything that is, is answered/explained by/dependent on a natural world. Why should he fear what will happen to him after he dies? All evidence points to his mind being solely dependent on a functioning brain and when the brain ceases to function, then his mind. i.e. the consciousness that gives him the feeling/awareness of "I" will be no more. He will be as aware of things as he was when he was totally out during anesthesia....which was not at all. If that is what heaven will be like...it'll just be one long nap.
And for my part...given my insomnia throughout most of MY life, that seems inviting...a long snooze where nothing will wake me up.
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Oct 6, 2021 21:45:18 GMT
When Christianity started to take off and become accepted in ancient Rome, it wasn't uncommon for wealthier Romans to employ a priest to follow them around 24/7 as they got older or became sick so that if they thought they were approaching their death they could be baptised into the faith and ensure their entry into heaven, but because they hadn't been Christians before this point they were free to do anything they wanted (and would only have to "follow the rules" once they were baptised...).
Can't really fault the reasoning, although some might think it's slightly cynical? Were they True Believers?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 6, 2021 22:45:58 GMT
When Christianity started to take off and become accepted in ancient Rome, it wasn't uncommon for wealthier Romans to employ a priest to follow them around 24/7 as they got older or became sick so that if they thought they were approaching their death they could be baptised into the faith and ensure their entry into heaven, but because they hadn't been Christians before this point they were free to do anything they wanted (and would only have to "follow the rules" once they were baptised...). Can't really fault the reasoning, although some might think it's slightly cynical? Were they True Believers? Taking God for granted probably wouldn't do anybody any favors. I'd even go so far as to say it's a direct violation of the commandment that says don't take his name in vain.
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Oct 7, 2021 6:12:00 GMT
When Christianity started to take off and become accepted in ancient Rome, it wasn't uncommon for wealthier Romans to employ a priest to follow them around 24/7 as they got older or became sick so that if they thought they were approaching their death they could be baptised into the faith and ensure their entry into heaven, but because they hadn't been Christians before this point they were free to do anything they wanted (and would only have to "follow the rules" once they were baptised...). Can't really fault the reasoning, although some might think it's slightly cynical? Were they True Believers? I’m not putting 21st century rationality into these 3rd century minds. They at least have that excuse. People stilling thinking in those terms today need to have their asses kicked. But weren't they "closer" to the original message (i.e. Christ) than we are? So it's less likely to have been diluted or changed over those (fewer) years? Perhaps they had it right...?
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Oct 7, 2021 21:31:57 GMT
But weren't they "closer" to the original message (i.e. Christ) than we are? So it's less likely to have been diluted or changed over those (fewer) years? Perhaps they had it right...? Christianity was then a whirling mass of several religions competing for customers. What became recognizable Christianity only appears in the 4th century. Even then, the church was not the direct spiritual descendant of the 1st century Jews who established the Church with St Peter as its first bishop they claim to be, but a mixture of the Pauline Cult; the Roman state religion; and Gnosticism and paganism. Even today, the Christianity of the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe have quite a bit gnostic and pagan, i.e. spiritual, in my opinion. The Protestants reformers understood this and purged the pagan influences from the faith in an attempt to be more like the original church. However, they had nothing to base their newer, more Christlike churches on except the 4th century finalization of the Bible, so modern Christians are no closer to the original church than 4th century…which also is the beginning of the Dark Ages. So, I see all Christian experiments in founding the “True Church of Christ” doomed to failure. We have enough data to objectively extrapolate how the earlier followers of Jesus may have formed up. There were several cults with two dominate: the Jewish cult, or Judaizers, probably lead by some of Jesus’ disciples; and Paul’s cult, lead by the self-proclaimed Apostle Paul. Then there were the zealots and other messiahs still working at the time. Simon Magus gets a special mention in the Acts. But when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and ran all the Jews out, including the Christian ones, that cut out the weaker competition, but survival of the faith depended upon attracting new followers. That meant making the church more amenable to less “Jewishy” things like graven images and no shellfish. So all early depictions of Jesus are pagan derived. And so on. It's a good thing that all these people following God's will/word, praying to him and getting guidance were able to decide on what his church should eventually look like only four centuries after he sent his son down to tell us. If it had taken much longer people might think that people were making some of it up.
|
|
|
Post by Stammerhead on Oct 8, 2021 9:43:09 GMT
Yes but it would be a pretend version of Heaven located just outside the real one.
The view won’t be as nice and the angels play music on mouth organs instead of harps.
|
|
|
Post by Stammerhead on Oct 9, 2021 8:38:37 GMT
Yes but it would be a pretend version of Heaven located just outside the real one. The view won’t be as nice and the angels play music on mouth organs instead of harps. Kinda like this? This is what we’ll be missing out on…
|
|
|
Post by Isapop on Oct 10, 2021 14:12:22 GMT
For most Christians, and especially Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe acts have value over an often empty hypocritical confession of faith, that atheist would see the pearly gates.
No, not as far as Catholics are concerned. I haven't seen a Catholic on this board capable of explaining their own religion, but if there was, (s)he would tell you that "justification" is needed to enter those pearly gates, and without faith there can be no justification. Works are also required because works perfect faith. "When Catholics read of Abraham “justified by faith” in Romans 5, we believe it. But we don’t end there. For when Catholics read of Abraham “justified by works” in James 2 we believe that as well. For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taken all of Sacred Scripture into the core of her theology harmonizing all of the biblical texts. Thus, we can agree with our Protestant friends and say as Christians we have been (past tense) justified and saved through our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. But we also agree with our Lord that there is another sense in which we are being saved and justified by cooperation with God’s grace in our lives" www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/justification-process-or-one-time-deal
|
|