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Post by marsatax on Nov 12, 2021 1:17:42 GMT
I keep seeing articles on the Internet saying that it was not the dropping of the atomic bombs, but instead the Soviets entering the war and invading Manchuria.
Can anyone argue specifically that it was NOT the Soviet entry into the war that convinced Japan to surrender?
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 12, 2021 1:51:15 GMT
I keep seeing articles on the Internet saying that it was not the dropping of the atomic bombs, but instead the Soviets entering the war and invading Manchuria.
Can anyone argue specifically that it was NOT the Soviet entry into the war that convinced Japan to surrender?
The article is all supposition. And rotten history.
"Even Gen. George Brinton McClellan — the Union commander of the Army of the Potomac in 1863 during the American Civil War, of whom President Lincoln said sadly, “He’s got the slows” — wasted only 12 hours when he was given a captured copy of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s orders for the invasion of Maryland."
McClellan was sacked in 1862. And the Maryland Invasion was one incident. Like saying Michael Jordan was a poor basketball player by showing one missed basket
Unless you are Hirohito, you don't know what pushed Japan over the edge
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Nov 12, 2021 9:51:06 GMT
Did Nuclear Weapons Cause Japan to Surrender?Transcript:Nuclear weapons shocked Japan into surrendering at the end of World War II—except they didn’t. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union entered the war. Japanese leaders said the bomb forced them to surrender because it was less embarrassing to say they had been defeated by a miracle weapon. Americans wanted to believe it, and the myth of nuclear weapons was born. Look at the facts. The United States bombed 68 cities in the summer of 1945. If you graph the number of people killed in all 68 of those attacks, you imagine that Hiroshima is off the charts, because that’s the way it’s usually presented. In fact, Hiroshima is second. Tokyo, a conventional attack, is first in the number killed. If you graph the number of square miles destroyed, Hiroshima is sixth. If you graph the percentage of the city destroyed, Hiroshima is 17th. Clearly, in terms of the end result—I’m not talking about the means, but in terms of the outcome of the attack—Hiroshima was not exceptional. It was not outside the parameters of attacks that had been going on all summer long. Hiroshima was not militarily decisive. The Soviet Union’s declaration of war, on the other hand, fundamentally altered the strategic situation. Adding another great power to the war created insoluble military problems for Japan’s leaders. It might be possible to fight against one great power attacking from one direction, but anyone could see that Japan couldn’t defend against two great powers attacking from two different directions at once. The Soviet declaration of war was decisive; Hiroshima was not. After Hiroshima, soldiers were still dug in in the beaches. They were still ready to fight. They wanted to fight. There was one fewer city behind them, but they had been losing cities all summer long, at the rate of one every other day, on average. Hiroshima was not a decisive military event. The Soviet entry into the war was. And they said this. Japan’s leaders identified the Soviet Union as the strategically decisive factor. In a meeting of the Supreme Council in June to discuss the war in general, policy, they said Soviet entry would determine the fate of the empire. Kawabe Toroshiro said, "The absolute maintenance of peace in our relations with the Soviet Union is one of the fundamental conditions for continuing the war." Japan’s leaders said Hiroshima forced them to surrender because it made a terrific explanation for losing the war. But the facts show that Hiroshima did not force Japan to surrender. If nuclear weapons are a religion, Hiroshima is the first miracle. What do we make of a religion when its miracles turn out to be false? Nuclear weapons shocked Japan into surrendering in World War II—except they didn’t. Transcript of entire lecturewww.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/010
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Post by Winter_King on Nov 12, 2021 11:11:57 GMT
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Nov 12, 2021 15:35:43 GMT
I had read that article before and thought it made a very convincing case.
I never subscribed to the idea that the motivation for dropping the atomic bombs was more as a warning to Stalin and the USSR than as a means to force Japan to surrender. That's something that some people strongly believe, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But this hypothesis (that Japan surrendered not because of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but because of the prospect of having to fight the Soviets in addition to the Americans) seems plausible.
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Post by Winter_King on Nov 12, 2021 15:40:14 GMT
I had read that article before and thought it made a very convincing case.
I never subscribed to the idea that the motivation for dropping the atomic bombs was more as a warning to Stalin and the USSR than as a means to force Japan to surrender. That's something that some people strongly believe, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But this hypothesis (that Japan surrendered not because of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but because of the prospect of having to fight the Soviets in addition to the Americans) seems plausible.
One of the things I've read, I don't remember where, is that at least one American P.O.W. was asked about the atomic bomb under torture. Obviously, the american didn't know shit about it but he told the Japanese that the US had at least 100 nukes ready to go. I don't know if they bought it but it might have been a factor. In reality the US was planning another bombing in August with another three in September because they didn't have that many nukes. Also reading about operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan, tactical nukes were being considered before the invasion. People didn't know much about radiation it seems.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Nov 12, 2021 19:09:44 GMT
The Soviet declaration of war was one more straw on the camel's back. Up to August, the Japanese believed that the USSR would broker a just peace between the US and Japan. A "just peace" meaning that Japan could keep its Empire to the 1937 borders, no US occupation of the Home Islands and try war criminals in Japanese courts. Absolutely unacceptable to the US. The Japanese truly believed that Stalin was friendly to them and the invasion was a stab in the back from a friend. After Midway, the Japanese began losing touch with reality at an amazing rate. They actually believed that 10-15 US aircraft carriers had been sunk at Leyte Gulf and the Kamikaze had virtually destroyed the US Navy. Even though carrier planes were constantly flying over Japan, that division after division of the IJA was disappearing, the population was looking at starvation because the US Submarine fleet had sunk the Japanese merchant fleet, and their cities were being incinerated. It was history, a miracle had saved Japan from Kublai Khan in the Divine Wind and a miracle would save Japan from the US.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Nov 13, 2021 4:56:23 GMT
I heard somewhere that while Japan knew that they were losing the war against the Americans they were hoping to draw out the war long enough and inflict enough casualties on the U.S. armed forces that they could avoid an unconditional surrender. One pathway to this was to bring the war to an attrition and find a third party to mediate terms of surrender that could be more favorable. Japan hoped that the Soviet Union would be this third party. The invasion of Manchuria dashed those hopes and made the Japanese government realize that they had no choice but to surrender unconditionally to the U.S.
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Post by Hairynosedwombat on Dec 18, 2021 13:22:59 GMT
I heard somewhere that while Japan knew that they were losing the war against the Americans they were hoping to draw out the war long enough and inflict enough casualties on the U.S. armed forces that they could avoid an unconditional surrender. One pathway to this was to bring the war to an attrition and find a third party to mediate terms of surrender that could be more favorable. Japan hoped that the Soviet Union would be this third party. The invasion of Manchuria dashed those hopes and made the Japanese government realize that they had no choice but to surrender unconditionally to the U.S. But they didnt surrender unconditionally. They demanded that Hirohito remain as emperor. What would they have done if the US refused that condition?
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Post by novastar6 on Dec 18, 2021 13:28:39 GMT
Every time this discussion comes up, I remember Barefoot Gen, his own father saying Japan has already lost but keeps fighting because its government is evil and stupid, people crying because the emperor surrendered and the war was over, Gen's mother, who's lost her husband and two children in the initial blast, demands to know why he didn't surrender before.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 18, 2021 18:18:42 GMT
I heard somewhere that while Japan knew that they were losing the war against the Americans they were hoping to draw out the war long enough and inflict enough casualties on the U.S. armed forces that they could avoid an unconditional surrender. One pathway to this was to bring the war to an attrition and find a third party to mediate terms of surrender that could be more favorable. Japan hoped that the Soviet Union would be this third party. The invasion of Manchuria dashed those hopes and made the Japanese government realize that they had no choice but to surrender unconditionally to the U.S. But they didnt surrender unconditionally. They demanded that Hirohito remain as emperor. What would they have done if the US refused that condition? Maintaining Hirohito on the throne, provided he renounce his power and his divinity, was always a bone the US was willing to throw Japan, just in secret. The US was afraid that a communist takeover of a Japanese Republic was more likely than a takeover of a Japanese Constitutional Monarchy. Keeping the thousands year old monarchy as a symbol would make the occupation go down easier. It was a risk, reactionary elements rallied around the throne before, and little could have been done to keep Japan from restoring Hirohito to power. And Japan was used to a powerless monarchy. Other than the Meiji Restoration, the Emperors were figureheads. And, Japan might have fought to the last if they thought Hirohito was going to hang after the war.
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Post by oftrollorigins on Dec 19, 2021 20:44:43 GMT
I had read that article before and thought it made a very convincing case.
I never subscribed to the idea that the motivation for dropping the atomic bombs was more as a warning to Stalin and the USSR than as a means to force Japan to surrender. That's something that some people strongly believe, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But this hypothesis (that Japan surrendered not because of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but because of the prospect of having to fight the Soviets in addition to the Americans) seems plausible.
I don’t see why we can’t accept that both had a major influence, but it wasn’t the Soviets attacking the homeland and obliterating their cities. Plus, after Okinawa they knew the Americans would invade the Home Islands next while continuing to devastate their cities with more nuclear bombs. On the 9th of August Japan was hit with a double whammy of a Soviet war declaration and the second nuclear bomb dropped on Japan. At this point the Japanese knew they couldn’t stop the Soviets in Manchuria nor could they have known the US had only two atomic bombs. To them, they were going to get pushed off of continental Asia, be invaded by the Americans, and have had more of their cities nuked into oblivion. To say the Soviets had no role in getting the Japanese to surrender is just as wrong as saying the atomic bombs didn’t. Both played a role, but in the war against Japan the US played the role that the Soviets did in Europe against Hitler. That is, a more decisive role in stopping them. However, we can’t forget about the Chinese. Who had been occupying most Japanese soldiers in a long and bloody land war. They did the dying while the Americans went on the offensive with the Aussies and Brits. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 20, 2021 17:55:44 GMT
I had read that article before and thought it made a very convincing case.
I never subscribed to the idea that the motivation for dropping the atomic bombs was more as a warning to Stalin and the USSR than as a means to force Japan to surrender. That's something that some people strongly believe, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But this hypothesis (that Japan surrendered not because of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but because of the prospect of having to fight the Soviets in addition to the Americans) seems plausible.
I don’t see why we can’t accept that both had a major influence, but it wasn’t the Soviets attacking the homeland and obliterating their cities. Plus, after Okinawa they knew the Americans would invade the Home Islands next while continuing to devastate their cities with more nuclear bombs. On the 9th of August Japan was hit with a double whammy of a Soviet war declaration and the second nuclear bomb dropped on Japan. At this point the Japanese knew they couldn’t stop the Soviets in Manchuria nor could they have known the US had only two atomic bombs. To them, they were going to get pushed off of continental Asia, be invaded by the Americans, and have had more of their cities nuked into oblivion. To say the Soviets had no role in getting the Japanese to surrender is just as wrong as saying the atomic bombs didn’t. Both played a role, but in the war against Japan the US played the role that the Soviets did in Europe against Hitler. That is, a more decisive role in stopping them. However, we can’t forget about the Chinese. Who had been occupying most Japanese soldiers in a long and bloody land war. They did the dying while the Americans went on the offensive with the Aussies and Brits. I think we can forget the Chinese. After Pearl Harbor, the Kuomintang forces and, to a lesser extent, the PLA, quit fighting the Japanese. Chaing and Mao both knew the Allies would win the war and they both started saving their forces for the inevitable civil war that would follow. When the Japanese launched Operation Ichi-Go in January, 1945 to neutralize planned US air bases in south China, the Nationalist forces just ran, on Chaing's orders. The Chinese peasants grabbed abandoned BMT guns and tried to fight the Japanese, losing tens of thousands. Seeing this, the Japanese rapidly began stripping better units from the China Expeditionary Army and the Kwangtung Army to strengthen forces on Formosa, Okinawa and the Home Islands. It was one reason the Red Army went through the Kwangtung Army like hot butter.
When the Soviets invaded Manchuria, they were astonished to find Japanese units with American guns, trucks, jeeps, even a handful of US tanks.After interrogation, the Russians leaned they acquired this material by buying it from corrupt KMT officers. Imagine a US or British officers found to be selling tanks to the Nazis
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