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Post by twothousandonemark on May 28, 2022 14:08:12 GMT
Maybe the entirety of Barbarossa? Should've aimed right for the oil fields from the get, shoring up supply lines. Their mad dash as it were to Moscow & environs was doomed yes? Nothing was sustainable about it all. The Baku Oilfields were a long, long way from the starting point.
A lot of people wonder about driving toward Moscow in the first place. After all, the city didn't do Napoleon a lot of good, did it. But Moscow 1941 was a lot different than Moscow 1812. First, it wasn't the capital in 1812. And it wasn't the industrial/communication/transport center that it was in 1941. I don't think Hitler believed that the USSR would be finished even if he took Moscow and Leningrad by the end of '41. He wanted the Urals and he had to know that line couldn't be reached by the time the winter hit. But it was a good resting place to start the final push in '42. And he thought Barbarossa would destroy the Red Army and undermine the Bolshevik Regime. After all, how could Hitler hope to conquer Russia when Charles XII and "Nappy" couldn't. But the Kaiser's army all but conquered Russia in 1917, due to the political and military collapse
I'd heard a pod about Barbarossa the other week... & they pointed out some very layman's terms why it was doomed: When Hitler invaded France... there were roads, highways(?), & gas stations... the infrastructure to literally drive over France was baked in. Invading backwoods Soviet Union, without proper strategic roadways, gas stations barely anywhere they needed... let alone the ridiculous swath of land mass they encroached upon... it was doomed before it started.
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Post by Zos on Jun 3, 2022 14:19:24 GMT
Attempting "Blitzkrieg" in Russia and in doing so our running supply lines.
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Post by telegonus on Jul 7, 2022 8:23:01 GMT
Invading the USSR may have been his raison d'etre, but the timing of his invasion could be considered a blunder. Germany should have waited until they've either conquered Britain (not a sure thing, obviously), or just completely neutralized it before Operation Barbarossa. Opening a second front doomed them, especially once the Red Army got going. Yes, and, as I've pondered this as well: with or without Hitler's declaration of war on the U.S.A., if, in addition to invading the USSR, Hitler had chosen to invade Great Britain, whatever his timing, that would have torn it: FDR was an extreme Anglophile,--and he was deeply Eurocentric in the bargain. He despised the Third Reich and all it stood for. Germany aims for the UK by sea, in addition to by air, the President would declare war on the Axis powers. Probably Germany first, but as "England's friend" I believe that FDR was, by nature, predisposed to taking action at such a time.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jul 7, 2022 15:09:59 GMT
Invading the USSR may have been his raison d'etre, but the timing of his invasion could be considered a blunder. Germany should have waited until they've either conquered Britain (not a sure thing, obviously), or just completely neutralized it before Operation Barbarossa. Opening a second front doomed them, especially once the Red Army got going. Yes, and, as I've pondered this as well: with or without Hitler's declaration of war on the U.S.A., if, in addition to invading the USSR, Hitler had chosen to invade Great Britain, whatever his timing, that would have torn it: FDR was an extreme Anglophile,--and he was deeply Eurocentric in the bargain. He despised the Third Reich and all it stood for. Germany aims for the UK by sea, in addition to by air, the President would declare war on the Axis powers. Probably Germany first, but as "England's friend" I believe that FDR was, by nature, predisposed to taking action at such a time. The question remains, could Roosevelt have entered the war without the events of December 7th and December 11th? Polls taken the first week of December showed that a large majority still favored US neutrality. The Isolationist blocs in both parties were very powerful. While there was zero sympathy for the Axis powers, there still wasn't enough hatred toward the Axis to enter the War. If the Germans gone through with Operation Sea Lion and invaded Britain would the US declared war? Maybe, but there would have been little the US could have done to help the British.
Could anything have drive the US into war except for Germany and Japan declaring war on US? Germany pushed the US into WWI but Hitler was careful not to make the same mistakes Ludendorff and Hindenburg made in 1917. If the truth had came out about the Nazi treatment of Jews and other minorities came out, would the US have gone to war? Maybe, but it would have had to be the whole gory truth and the media might not have printed the stories about Auschwitz, Nanking et al. In the End, the Axis made it easy for FDR
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Post by telegonus on Jul 7, 2022 20:47:22 GMT
Yes, and, as I've pondered this as well: with or without Hitler's declaration of war on the U.S.A., if, in addition to invading the USSR, Hitler had chosen to invade Great Britain, whatever his timing, that would have torn it: FDR was an extreme Anglophile,--and he was deeply Eurocentric in the bargain. He despised the Third Reich and all it stood for. Germany aims for the UK by sea, in addition to by air, the President would declare war on the Axis powers. Probably Germany first, but as "England's friend" I believe that FDR was, by nature, predisposed to taking action at such a time. The question remains, could Roosevelt have entered the war without the events of December 7th and December 11th? Polls taken the first week of December showed that a large majority still favored US neutrality. The Isolationist blocs in both parties were very powerful. While there was zero sympathy for the Axis powers, there still wasn't enough hatred toward the Axis to enter the War. If the Germans gone through with Operation Sea Lion and invaded Britain would the US declared war? Maybe, but there would have been little the US could have done to help the British.
Could anything have drive the US into war except for Germany and Japan declaring war on US? Germany pushed the US into WWI but Hitler was careful not to make the same mistakes Ludendorff and Hindenburg made in 1917. If the truth had came out about the Nazi treatment of Jews and other minorities came out, would the US have gone to war? Maybe, but it would have had to be the whole gory truth and the media might not have printed the stories about Auschwitz, Nanking et al. In the End, the Axis made it easy for FDR
I didn't take the polls into account when I wrote my response. Truly, the depth of isolationist feeling,--and I have a good understanding of American political history--would have hampered FDR's (presumed, on my part) decision making no matter how much he loved England, loathed what the Third Reich was all about ideologically, and, needless to say, morally. We were readying for war at the time, could not make it "come to our doors" till it did. In a grotesque fashion, and horrible as it was, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and their quick arrival in the Philippine's were fortunate for dragging us into war, as was Hitler's foolish following course, which altered the geopolitical scene overnight. America's involvement in the war till then was like a virtual shadow play, as it were, with the U.S., doing everything but taking literal punches at our future enemies. My sense is that the Axis powers could never have achieved their goals long term. There were too many forces working against them. The tide of history was not favorable for those nations; and especially for what their rulers represented. Their "ideas" were wrong for anyone but themselves, and sooner or later this would have reared its not so ugly head, and brought them down.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jul 7, 2022 22:16:17 GMT
The question remains, could Roosevelt have entered the war without the events of December 7th and December 11th? Polls taken the first week of December showed that a large majority still favored US neutrality. The Isolationist blocs in both parties were very powerful. While there was zero sympathy for the Axis powers, there still wasn't enough hatred toward the Axis to enter the War. If the Germans gone through with Operation Sea Lion and invaded Britain would the US declared war? Maybe, but there would have been little the US could have done to help the British.
Could anything have drive the US into war except for Germany and Japan declaring war on US? Germany pushed the US into WWI but Hitler was careful not to make the same mistakes Ludendorff and Hindenburg made in 1917. If the truth had came out about the Nazi treatment of Jews and other minorities came out, would the US have gone to war? Maybe, but it would have had to be the whole gory truth and the media might not have printed the stories about Auschwitz, Nanking et al. In the End, the Axis made it easy for FDR
I didn't take the polls into account when I wrote my response. Truly, the depth of isolationist feeling,--and I have a good understanding of American political history--would have hampered FDR's (presumed, on my part) decision making no matter how much he loved England, loathed what the Third Reich was all about ideologically, and, needless to say, morally. We were readying for war at the time, could not make it "come to our doors" till it did. In a grotesque fashion, and horrible as it was, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and their quick arrival in the Philippine's were fortunate for dragging us into war, as was Hitler's foolish following course, which altered the geopolitical scene overnight. America's involvement in the war till then was like a virtual shadow play, as it were, with the U.S., doing everything but taking literal punches at our future enemies. My sense is that the Axis powers could never have achieved their goals long term. There were too many forces working against them. The tide of history was not favorable for those nations; and especially for what their rulers represented. Their "ideas" were wrong for anyone but themselves, and sooner or later this would have reared its not so ugly head, and brought them down. I don't think there was any way the Axis could have won, short of Stalin suing for a separate peace. And Japan never could have won. They lost the war when the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto's "sleeping giant" comment was true. Japan was totally not able to wage a long war with the US. Japan had no necessary materials to wage a long war. All their iron ore had to come from Manchuria, their rubber from French Indochina, their oil from Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. Eventually, the US navy could cut off those supplies. And Japan or Germany could never touch the US industrial machinery.
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Post by amyghost on Jul 10, 2022 12:14:02 GMT
Just being 'Hitler" would be my guess.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jul 10, 2022 16:58:27 GMT
1. The invasion of the Soviet Union 2. The Battle of Britain 3. Cancellation of experimental weaponry programs 4. The order to “never withdraw” 5. Using the Me-262 as a bombardier 6. Absence of women working in the factories 7. The declaration of war against the United States 8. More mistakes in the Soviet Union 9. The Battle of Kursk 10. The Battle of the Bulge historyofyesterday.com/10-mistakes-by-hitler-that-prove-he-was-an-idiot-a8f97d0b81fc |
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Post by theravenking on Jul 10, 2022 17:14:33 GMT
It is believed by some historians, that Hitler suffered from Parkinson's disease which would explain his increasingly erratic behaviour and all the blunders he made throughout the war.
I voted for Dunkirk, since sparing the British forces seems the most perplexing of all of his decisions.
I believe the US would've entered the war anyway sooner or later, so I see the German declaration of war mostly as a symbolic gesture (although Hitler might've hoped that America would lose the war in the Pacific or at least be kept occupied by Japan, in which case the chances of US forces appearing in Europe would've been pretty slim.)
Also didn't the invasion Of Yugoslavia and Greece mostly happen, because Hitler was forced to help Mussolini save face, after the Italian army would prove too weak?
I also remember reading somewhere that Hitler basically abandoned the remaining German forces in Northern Africa, forcing them to stand their ground, even when it became clear that they were fighting a losing battle, leaving them to be captured by the Allies, when in fact he could' ve saved many soldiers by letting the retreat in time and evacuating them to Europe. These forces would be lacking later in the defense of Italy and France further weakening the German army.
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Post by Winter_King on Jul 11, 2022 10:32:55 GMT
Yes, and, as I've pondered this as well: with or without Hitler's declaration of war on the U.S.A., if, in addition to invading the USSR, Hitler had chosen to invade Great Britain, whatever his timing, that would have torn it: FDR was an extreme Anglophile,--and he was deeply Eurocentric in the bargain. He despised the Third Reich and all it stood for. Germany aims for the UK by sea, in addition to by air, the President would declare war on the Axis powers. Probably Germany first, but as "England's friend" I believe that FDR was, by nature, predisposed to taking action at such a time. The question remains, could Roosevelt have entered the war without the events of December 7th and December 11th? Polls taken the first week of December showed that a large majority still favored US neutrality. The Isolationist blocs in both parties were very powerful. While there was zero sympathy for the Axis powers, there still wasn't enough hatred toward the Axis to enter the War. If the Germans gone through with Operation Sea Lion and invaded Britain would the US declared war? Maybe, but there would have been little the US could have done to help the British.
Could anything have drive the US into war except for Germany and Japan declaring war on US? Germany pushed the US into WWI but Hitler was careful not to make the same mistakes Ludendorff and Hindenburg made in 1917. If the truth had came out about the Nazi treatment of Jews and other minorities came out, would the US have gone to war? Maybe, but it would have had to be the whole gory truth and the media might not have printed the stories about Auschwitz, Nanking et al. In the End, the Axis made it easy for FDR
I don't know about the US declaring war but if the Germans had gone through with Operation Sea Lion that would've turned into a huge blunder for Hitler. Probably requiring a Dunkirk in reverse, with German troops stranded in British beaches waiting for evacuation to the mainland.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jul 11, 2022 15:52:07 GMT
It is believed by some historians, that Hitler suffered from Parkinson's disease which would explain his increasingly erratic behaviour and all the blunders he made throughout the war. I voted for Dunkirk, since sparing the British forces seems the most perplexing of all of his decisions. I believe the US would've entered the war anyway sooner or later, so I see the German declaration of war mostly as a symbolic gesture (although Hitler might've hoped that America would lose the war in the Pacific or at least be kept occupied by Japan, in which case the chances of US forces appearing in Europe would've been pretty slim.) Also didn't the invasion Of Yugoslavia and Greece mostly happen, because Hitler was forced to help Mussolini save face, after the Italian army would prove too weak? I also remember reading somewhere that Hitler basically abandoned the remaining German forces in Northern Africa, forcing them to stand their ground, even when it became clear that they were fighting a losing battle, leaving them to be captured by the Allies, when in fact he could' ve saved many soldiers by letting the retreat in time and evacuating them to Europe. These forces would be lacking later in the defense of Italy and France further weakening the German army. Hitler never put the screws to the BEF because he thought that when the ground troops reached the Channel, the war was all but over. He felt that Britain would immediately sue for peace, especially when Churchill heard the peace terms (no territorial demands on GB or reparations). He thought that if he massacred the troops on the beaches, it would harden British sentiment.
The Yugoslav/Greek invasion were to bail out Mussolini and to cover his southern flank before Barbarossa. It was a blunder because it pushed back the invasion of Russia by a few weeks. The Wehrmacht might have taken Moscow it they had a few more weeks of good weather.
The surrender of the Axis troops in Tunisia was a catastrophe. Rick Atkinson, in his history on the African Campaign, An Army at Dawn, calls it "Tunisgrad". 250,000 troops surrendered, compared to the 235,000 who surrendered at Stalingrad. Granted, a lot of them were Italians and Hitler didn't give a rats backside about them. But they could have been used well in the defense of Sicily and Italy proper. And it turned the Italian people and King Victor Emmanuel against Mussolini. They probably couldn't have got all of them out of Africa, like Dunkirk, but Hitler never even tried. He only evacuated Rommel.
Hitler did have all the symptoms of Parkinson's (it could have been syphilis also). He took way to many medications, prescribed by a quack named Theodor Morell. Up to 34 different drugs including steroids, oxycodone, caffeine injections, cocaine and methamphetamine (yeah, Methhead Adolf). It's a wonder he was still alive in 1945.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jul 11, 2022 15:55:32 GMT
The question remains, could Roosevelt have entered the war without the events of December 7th and December 11th? Polls taken the first week of December showed that a large majority still favored US neutrality. The Isolationist blocs in both parties were very powerful. While there was zero sympathy for the Axis powers, there still wasn't enough hatred toward the Axis to enter the War. If the Germans gone through with Operation Sea Lion and invaded Britain would the US declared war? Maybe, but there would have been little the US could have done to help the British.
Could anything have drive the US into war except for Germany and Japan declaring war on US? Germany pushed the US into WWI but Hitler was careful not to make the same mistakes Ludendorff and Hindenburg made in 1917. If the truth had came out about the Nazi treatment of Jews and other minorities came out, would the US have gone to war? Maybe, but it would have had to be the whole gory truth and the media might not have printed the stories about Auschwitz, Nanking et al. In the End, the Axis made it easy for FDR
I don't know about the US declaring war but if the Germans had gone through with Operation Sea Lion that would've turned into a huge blunder for Hitler. Probably requiring a Dunkirk in reverse, with German troops stranded in British beaches waiting for evacuation to the mainland. Sea Lion required total German control of the air and sea over the English Channel and the North Sea. The Luftwaffe might have wiped out the RAF but it's difficult to see how Kriegsmarine could have destroyed the Royal Navy. I don't think the invasion of England was ever seriously on the table.
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