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Post by twothousandonemark on Dec 11, 2021 15:58:25 GMT
NBA
#1 Michael Jordan.
#2 LeBron James some/all of:
- of his 10 Finals, be at least 3 wins above .500
- defeating Kobe &/or KD in a Finals
- 2-3 more scoring titles
- fewer HOF teammates might've helped too
MLB
#1 Babe Ruth.
#2 Willie Mays...
- career batting higher than .320
- 4-5+ more NL pennants
- 2-3+ more WS titles ...thus his teams commanding the Mantle years
NHL
#1 Wayne Gretzky.
#2 Bobby Orr... practically impossible, as a defenseman no less, yet it might've taken:
- 2-3+ 50 goal seasons
- 3-4+ more Stanley Cups
- 2-3+ move MVP's
NFL
#1 Jim Brown.
#2 Tom Brady...
- Statistically prolific domination at QB... with daylight ahead of peers like Manning & Brees.
- 4-5 MVP's
- 6+ SB titles & zero losses
I think my #1's commonality is sheer domination of their eras, including their resumes over my #2's. Orr's career to me reminds me of Jim Brown's, & yet that's how ahead Wayne Gretzky was.
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 11, 2021 16:05:28 GMT
Troll
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 11, 2021 16:24:42 GMT
Nothing could put LeBron over Jordan for me. I've gone into it ad nauseum on this board. Jordan was more dominant in his prime, went undefeated in the Finals, and either of his three peats (and the stats that go with them) are more impressive than anything LeBron has ever done or ever could do at this point in his career.
Brady has gone to the Super Bowl half of his career as a starting QB. He's won the Super Bowl 1/3 of his career as a starting QB. That's more impressive than anything Jim Brown ever did. Brady rewrote the record books and expectations for QBs in their 40s, but to be fair that can be at least somewhat attributed to the evolution of the game and healthcare overall. Still, his is a level of dominance in his era greater than that of Jim Brown. I'd also put Jerry Rice ahead of Jim Brown, and probably more if I really thought about it.
What Orr accomplished, as a defenseman, is unbelievable. He's the only guy I'd put in the conversation with Gretzky as GOAT.
To topple Ruth as the GOAT, another player would've had to be decades ahead of the rest of the league in slugging ability. There were years were Ruth had more HRs than any other team combined. And before that, he was a dominant pitcher! Nobody is topping that.
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Post by Heretic on Dec 11, 2021 17:53:58 GMT
NBA
#1 Michael Jordan
#2 Trae Young
- better defense
-4 titles
- a generation that grows up and mimics his play style
Okay, I know it's controversial, but Trae has changed the game with his play style like Jordan did. He is young and will be legend. Give him time. People will mimic him as he has changed the NBA forever. He is an elite dribbler, 3 point shooter, floater shooter, and the assist king!
MLB
#1 Ohtani
#2 Babe Ruth
-resurrect from the dead and prove he can hit in the modern era
Ohtani is simply the greatest player of baseball ever. He's elite as a hitter and a pitcher. We are blessed to be able to watch him.
NFL
#1 Jerry Rice
#2 Peyton Manning
-2 more championships
Let's face it....Jerry Rice was THE receiver of the 90s and that was before we had all these rules that protect soft players today. Manning worked under 7 different offensive coordinators and was always in the hunt for the playoffs. Brady is great, but he only had to work under 2 offensive coordinators.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 11, 2021 18:16:49 GMT
Jim Brown is so tough to quantify. What could he have done with another 5-7 years? Most people who seen Brown play say he was the most dominating offensive player in history. If Brown hit his average yards per season (1300+) for six more seasons, he's over 20,000 yards. Almost 2000 more than Emmitt Smith. Then again, he could have gone into a decline. Look at OJ Simpson's numbers after age 29. But it's tough to base a players place in history for what he could have/should have done. What would Sandy Koufax's career numbers have looked like if the Dodgers hadn't bounced him from bullpen to starting at the beginning and not made him pitch until his arm literally fell off late in his career?
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Dec 11, 2021 18:58:09 GMT
Jim Brown is so tough to quantify. What could he have done with another 5-7 years? Most people who seen Brown play say he was the most dominating offensive player in history. If Brown hit his average yards per season (1300+) for six more seasons, he's over 20,000 yards. Almost 2000 more than Emmitt Smith. Then again, he could have gone into a decline. Look at OJ Simpson's numbers after age 29. But it's tough to base a players place in history for what he could have/should have done. What would Sandy Koufax's career numbers have looked like if the Dodgers hadn't bounced him from bullpen to starting at the beginning and not made him pitch until his arm literally fell off late in his career? Hmmm ... |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 11, 2021 19:01:30 GMT
Jim Brown is so tough to quantify. What could he have done with another 5-7 years? Most people who seen Brown play say he was the most dominating offensive player in history. If Brown hit his average yards per season (1300+) for six more seasons, he's over 20,000 yards. Almost 2000 more than Emmitt Smith. Then again, he could have gone into a decline. Look at OJ Simpson's numbers after age 29. But it's tough to base a players place in history for what he could have/should have done. What would Sandy Koufax's career numbers have looked like if the Dodgers hadn't bounced him from bullpen to starting at the beginning and not made him pitch until his arm literally fell off late in his career? Hmmm ... Damned close. In 1966, the Dodgers had Koufax throw 160+ pitches in an exhibition game when they knew his arm was shot. Imagine a team doing that with a top line starter today
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Dec 11, 2021 19:05:14 GMT
AFL
#1: Ronald Dale Barassi Jr
#2: Garry Ablett Jr
- not leave premierships on the table by going to Gold Coast in his prime
- a long career in coaching with premiership success
- becoming the ultimate statesman for the sport in retirement as Barass did.
Cricket
#1. Sir Donald Bradman
#2: daylight.
- someone to come along who was statistically 45% better than anyone else who ever played the game, rather than The Don's 40%.
NRL: No concensus GOAT. Not that kind of sport.
Someone would have to come along to be the undisputed face of the sport for a decade winning premierships, Dally Ms, Clive Churchills, at least 4 of each. The great Dragons team that won 11 straight had too many great players for one to stand above the rest.
Cam Smith was closest among the modern players but he has baggage with his team being stripped of premierships and first Greg Inglis and then Cooper Cronk leaving Smith to win premierships without him.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 11, 2021 20:28:13 GMT
-2 more championships Let's face it....Jerry Rice was THE receiver of the 90s and that was before we had all these rules that protect soft players today. Manning worked under 7 different offensive coordinators and was always in the hunt for the playoffs. Brady is great, but he only had to work under 2 offensive coordinators.Brady has gone to the Super Bowl with four different OCs, he's won the Super Bowl with three different OCs. None of them have won anything without him.
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Post by Heretic on Dec 11, 2021 21:16:43 GMT
-2 more championships Let's face it....Jerry Rice was THE receiver of the 90s and that was before we had all these rules that protect soft players today. Manning worked under 7 different offensive coordinators and was always in the hunt for the playoffs. Brady is great, but he only had to work under 2 offensive coordinators.Brady has gone to the Super Bowl with four different OCs, he's won the Super Bowl with three different OCs. None of them have won anything without him. 4 is a lot less than 7 |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 11, 2021 21:21:09 GMT
Brady has gone to the Super Bowl with four different OCs, he's won the Super Bowl with three different OCs. None of them have won anything without him. 4 is a lot less than 7 Agreed. Manning has only been to 4 Super Bowls. Brady has won 7.
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Post by NJtoTX on Dec 11, 2021 21:48:26 GMT
What would Sandy Koufax's career numbers have looked like if the Dodgers hadn't bounced him from bullpen to starting at the beginning and not made him pitch until his arm literally fell off late in his career? Hmmm ... Well, literally has been used figuratively for hundreds of years. slate.com/human-interest/2005/11/the-trouble-with-literally.html
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Post by sdm3 on Dec 11, 2021 21:51:15 GMT
Jim Brown is so tough to quantify. What could he have done with another 5-7 years? Most people who seen Brown play say he was the most dominating offensive player in history. If Brown hit his average yards per season (1300+) for six more seasons, he's over 20,000 yards. Almost 2000 more than Emmitt Smith. Then again, he could have gone into a decline. Look at OJ Simpson's numbers after age 29. But it's tough to base a players place in history for what he could have/should have done. What would Sandy Koufax's career numbers have looked like if the Dodgers hadn't bounced him from bullpen to starting at the beginning and not made him pitch until his arm literally fell off late in his career? Hmmm ... You've never heard of One Hand Sandy?
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Post by weststigersbob on Dec 12, 2021 1:56:23 GMT
AFL #1: Ronald Dale Barassi Jr #2: Garry Ablett Jr - not leave premierships on the table by going to Gold Coast in his prime - a long career in coaching with premiership success - becoming the ultimate statesman for the sport in retirement as Barass did. Cricket #1. Sir Donald Bradman #2: daylight. - someone to come along who was statistically 45% better than anyone else who ever played the game, rather than The Don's 40%. NRL: No concensus GOAT. Not that kind of sport. Someone would have to come along to be the undisputed face of the sport for a decade winning premierships, Dally Ms, Clive Churchills, at least 4 of each. The great Dragons team that won 11 straight had too many great players for one to stand above the rest. Cam Smith was closest among the modern players but he has baggage with his team being stripped of premierships and first Greg Inglis and then Cooper Cronk leaving Smith to win premierships without him. As a casual AFL fan, wouldn’t Leigh Matthews come close ? Everywhere he is, success follows. Lately with an almost basket case Brisbane Lions. Cricket - Bradman then daylight 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The true GOAT. NRL - agree. Cam Smith has many attributes to be the GOAT, but the one he sorely lacks is that he has never been anything than cool and level headed and frankly boring. He has the flair of an industrial lathe. |
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Post by hehatesshe on Dec 12, 2021 3:01:23 GMT
NBA #1 Michael Jordan #2 Trae Young - better defense -4 titles - a generation that grows up and mimics his play style Okay, I know it's controversial, but Trae has changed the game with his play style like Jordan did. He is young and will be legend. Give him time. People will mimic him as he has changed the NBA forever. He is an elite dribbler, 3 point shooter, floater shooter, and the assist king! MLB #1 Ohtani #2 Babe Ruth -resurrect from the dead and prove he can hit in the modern era Ohtani is simply the greatest player of baseball ever. He's elite as a hitter and a pitcher. We are blessed to be able to watch him. NFL #1 Jerry Rice #2 Peyton Manning -2 more championships Let's face it....Jerry Rice was THE receiver of the 90s and that was before we had all these rules that protect soft players today. Manning worked under 7 different offensive coordinators and was always in the hunt for the playoffs. Brady is great, but he only had to work under 2 offensive coordinators. What a shit list full of am radio hot takes. |
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Post by Shane Falco on Dec 12, 2021 9:28:05 GMT
Top of my head
NFL
Aaron Rodgers (Top QB of all time but Rice or Sanders above him for football player in general)
NBA
Bill Russell to piss people off
MLB
Mickey Mantle- outside of Jackie Robinson idk who influenced the game like he did. Mickey was the Jordan of baseball.
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Post by Shane Falco on Dec 12, 2021 9:30:00 GMT
To think of #2 I'd need more time. Not entirely sober atm
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 12, 2021 16:15:49 GMT
To think of #2 I'd need more time. Not entirely sober atmWe figured as much when you chose Rodgers for GOAT. 
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Post by Shane Falco on Dec 14, 2021 9:25:54 GMT
NFL
#1 Jerry Rice
#2 Barry Sanders
- QBs stats and impact have become so bloated now that they basically need to be judged separately. There are arguments on who the best QB is of all time. However I feel there aren't in terms of WR or RB. These two just stand tall. Since they're both retired nothing they could do.
NBA
#1 Bill Russell
#2 Michael Jordan/Lebron James
- I dont watch much NBA. In fact i mostly hate the sport. I chose this simply because the argument for best player is idiotic to me. People hold team accomplishments above all else it seems in regards to a single player. Championships aren't a singular accomplishment in team sports like the big four compared to tennis or golf. It annoys me how people say MJ is best because of his 6 titles. Yet those same people ignore Russell's 11. It's such a dumb way to judge a single player in team sports.
MLB
#1 Mickey Mantle
#2 Willie Mays
- Mickey was just insane. His life and career has always fascinated me. Imagine how good he would have been had he taken care of himself? Yet at the same time he was amazing. Again both guys retired so if I chose current Mike Trout. Trout would need a type of cultural significance to him to get to #1. He is gonna have the stats assuming no big injuries but how many people even know who he is?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 14, 2021 13:30:24 GMT
NFL #1 Jerry Rice #2 Barry Sanders - QBs stats and impact have become so bloated now that they basically need to be judged separately. There are arguments on who the best QB is of all time. However I feel there aren't in terms of WR or RB. These two just stand tall. Since they're both retired nothing they could do. NBA #1 Bill Russell #2 Michael Jordan/Lebron James - I dont watch much NBA. In fact i mostly hate the sport. I chose this simply because the argument for best player is idiotic to me. People hold team accomplishments above all else it seems in regards to a single player. Championships aren't a singular accomplishment in team sports like the big four compared to tennis or golf. It annoys me how people say MJ is best because of his 6 titles. Yet those same people ignore Russell's 11. It's such a dumb way to judge a single player in team sports. MLB #1 Mickey Mantle #2 Willie Mays - Mickey was just insane. His life and career has always fascinated me. Imagine how good he would have been had he taken care of himself? Yet at the same time he was amazing. Again both guys retired so if I chose current Mike Trout. Trout would need a type of cultural significance to him to get to #1. He is gonna have the stats assuming no big injuries but how many people even know who he is? Ironically though, winning is the reason Russell should be a part of the conversation for GOAT, but he never really seems to be. In terms of talent, Jordan, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt all have an argument. Russell didn't have their offensive game, but Russell is the greatest winner in the history of the game of basketball. The NBA didn't officially record blocks as a stat until after he was retired, and defense was his strongest attribute. He affected the game at both ends by blocking shots, coming down with the ball and igniting the fast break. Also ironic that the Celtics defensive stalwart was the catalyst for their high scoring offense. Basketball is a team game (is there a team game that isn't a team game? Some say baseball, but I disagree with that, as well), but it should be noted that the Celtics, with all their hall of famers, won 11 championships in 13 years with Russell; and the two they didn't, he was hurt and either didn't play or wasn't 100%. The winning started his rookie season and ended when he retired. Add to that back-to-back NCAA titles and Olympic gold (and there were no 'dream teams' back then), and the man is the most accomplished basketball player ever. As for GOAT, for me it's Jordan all day, every day, but Russell deserves a mention. For QBs, the evolution of the game makes it difficult to gauge impact by looking at stats alone. But when you combine stats, championships and clutch moments, it becomes nearly impossible (I'm being nice here, to me it is impossible) to put anyone ahead of Brady. You can't be this dominant for this long in an era where the league is designed for parity, and not be the GOAT. This isn't the good old days without free agency where you could just run it back for a decade with the same guys; or European soccer where whoever spends the most money wins. He has consistently excelled with an everchanging supporting cast on and off the field. Baseball, if you're going by pure talent, there are plenty of five tool players throughout history you could argue as GOAT. But again, for me the formula for GOAT should include stats and championships-- or at least competing for them. Frank would kill me for saying this, but Trout can't be the GOAT if he plays his entire career in obscurity. Hand him all the MVPs you want, if he never even reaches a World Series, how is he the GOAT? He's been in one postseason series, where he went 1-12 while his team got swept in the divisional round. Now obviously he needs help around him, but a player has to help his team accomplish something for me to consider him the GOAT.
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