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Post by Nora on Jan 19, 2022 1:48:14 GMT
while i see that i cant believe they missed the opportunity to have him walk through fire and save someone/something, or something like that. something more tangible i guess. also we never really saw His own reaction or dealing with his emotions - he wanted to know who his mom was so much but we never really see him react to it/deal with it much upon finding out. its more like... cool story bro. They had Daenerys and Arya for the dumb superhero stuff. Jon was the humble one not wanting anything and doing what's right so that's about all he does in addition to fighting. In late seasons, the show is sectioned into easy archetypes and limited to action and emotion. Tyrion is the reflective one so he has to be brought on top of a hill to watch Daenerys slaughter his people and make a sick face. That way the idiots cheering at the bar can maybe understand that something is wrong with the whole idea. The writers have been observing the reception of the show all along and came to the conclusion that the qualities that made the early seasons went way over the head of its mass audience. They adapted and did away with all that was smart or questioning. But the overarching plot designed for them at the start was smart and questioning: it was about the dangers of trusting heroes and that was not something that could be brought successfully to a mass audience. It was going to fail the moment GoT became popular. In a way, I have the feeling they knew this and couldn't be bothered. They just cashed in on the idiots. perhaps. Btw looked at your signature on your profile. Am I correct to think Cersei was your favorite character? What did you like about her so much (other than looks) and how happy were you with her end? I am going to rewatch season1 right now I think. I miss the show. yeah. weird i know but i actually do miss it and want to enjoy the first season again now knowing the characters and their fates.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 19, 2022 4:23:45 GMT
Btw looked at your signature on your profile. Am I correct to think Cersei was your favorite character? What did you like about her so much (other than looks) and how happy were you with her end? Tywin was my original favourite but I always liked Cersei too and she replaced him when he died. Both were intelligent realists (in the show, book-Cersei is not) in a world mostly populated with emoting twits. The Lannisters are capitalists too and honest, assailed by all sorts of murderous or idealistic fools. There was no one else to side with, really. The Tyrells were the acceptable allies but Margaery was a smiling whore I could not abide. Renly was a grabber who started a war because he could and Littlefinger was a murdering crook. I think Cersei's end was fitting: murdered by the main monster of the story. Then she lives on in Sansa who is her daughter more than anyone else in the show. I wish Sansa had been made smarter early on, less naive. I knew Martin would throw plot twists at people's heads until the end so I kept hope he would have Daenerys fail and Cersei keep the throne, only to spite those who were all to sure of her demise. This is definitely what I would have written. I sketched a better ending along those lines before S7.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 19, 2022 4:42:22 GMT
Sadly the ending from Game of Thrones is the only ending we will get. Because George R.R Martin is never going to finish the books, and its time for people to accept that. Maybe I need to ask again…
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 19, 2022 10:01:19 GMT
Sadly the ending from Game of Thrones is the only ending we will get. Because George R.R Martin is never going to finish the books, and its time for people to accept that. Maybe I need to ask again…
He may finish winds of winter, but he still have one book left. Also before we all die is a silly way to frame the question. before he dies is a better way to frame it. This is the last thing i will say in this thread.
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Post by Nora on Jan 19, 2022 10:29:19 GMT
Btw looked at your signature on your profile. Am I correct to think Cersei was your favorite character? What did you like about her so much (other than looks) and how happy were you with her end? Tywin was my original favourite but I always liked Cersei too and she replaced him when he died. Both were intelligent realists (in the show, book-Cersei is not) in a world mostly populated with emoting twits. The Lannisters are capitalists too and honest, assailed by all sorts of murderous or idealistic fools. There was no one else to side with, really. The Tyrells were the acceptable allies but Margaery was a smiling whore I could not abide. Renly was a grabber who started a war because he could and Littlefinger was a murdering crook. I think Cersei's end was fitting: murdered by the main monster of the story. Then she lives on in Sansa who is her daughter more than anyone else in the show. I wish Sansa had been made smarter early on, less naive. I knew Martin would throw plot twists at people's heads until the end so I kept hope he would have Daenerys fail and Cersei keep the throne, only to spite those who were all to sure of her demise. This is definitely what I would have written. I sketched a better ending along those lines before S7. how was the book Cersei different from the tv one?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 19, 2022 10:55:34 GMT
how was the book Cersei different from the tv one? Not smart, impulsive, manipulative, sleeping around with kingsguards to get things done and generally incompetent. Is she petty as well? I don't remember but probably. In the show, she has to make the major blunder of empowering the High Sparrow because that storyline needs to happen but the rest makes sense. We even see Margaery try to get Tommen to distanciate himself from her in more or less subtle ways ("you'll always be her cub") so her move against the Tyrells has some understandable background. In the books it is not so well justified.
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Post by Marv on Jan 19, 2022 21:49:19 GMT
Tywin was my original favourite but I always liked Cersei too and she replaced him when he died. Both were intelligent realists (in the show, book-Cersei is not) in a world mostly populated with emoting twits. The Lannisters are capitalists too and honest, assailed by all sorts of murderous or idealistic fools. There was no one else to side with, really. The Tyrells were the acceptable allies but Margaery was a smiling whore I could not abide. Renly was a grabber who started a war because he could and Littlefinger was a murdering crook. I think Cersei's end was fitting: murdered by the main monster of the story. Then she lives on in Sansa who is her daughter more than anyone else in the show. I wish Sansa had been made smarter early on, less naive. I knew Martin would throw plot twists at people's heads until the end so I kept hope he would have Daenerys fail and Cersei keep the throne, only to spite those who were all to sure of her demise. This is definitely what I would have written. I sketched a better ending along those lines before S7. how was the book Cersei different from the tv one? The show gave Cersei a fair amount of likeability and understanding, even in season 1. Book Cersei is void of 99 percent of that. All you really see it a pretentious entitled whore queen.
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Post by Nora on Jan 19, 2022 22:49:01 GMT
how was the book Cersei different from the tv one? The show gave Cersei a fair amount of likeability and understanding, even in season 1. Book Cersei is void of 99 percent of that. All you really see it a pretentious entitled whore queen. really?? Now try and look pass the actress being hot. Where is the understanding coming from? I mean I liked the character how it was portrayed and developed, same like Littlefinger, both great bad guys, but I had very little understanding for her... I mean we do see her husband flirting/mkaing out with others in front of her in episode 1 yes but is that enough to justify her A) sleeping with her brother, commiting adultery and inces in the process and B) supporting if not provoking Jamie into pushing Bran out the window and C) mistreating Sansa and D) not controlling Jeoffry more which could have been achievable when he was still younger, before he was king. To me she was clearly a bad guy, always plotting, super petty, very manipulative and power hungry, similar like Daenery but smarter. (to be clear: I love the character, as in i enjoyed watching her be herself and wouldnt mind if she ended up on the Iron throne more permanently, it would have given new interesting plot lines to us, but I could see her marrying her son for how bad she was We know she was bad/super mean from early childhood too, so it wasnt all tywins fault. Either way, she was a great character and Lena portrayed her excellently. I wish she didnt feel so wasted in the last 2 seasons, mostly just staring out of the window. I know Emilia Clark wish she had had more scenes directly with Lena, and I think that would have been great to see them interact much more. Now throw in LittleFinger trying to manipulate both of them in the finale, and Tyrion saving the day (even if he died in the process) that would probably make me very happy as a viewer.
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Post by Nora on Jan 19, 2022 22:51:03 GMT
I cant get over how poorly the choosing of the king was done in the end. So rushed. So stupid. Aargh. that act was deserving of maybe an entire episode devoted to it. Just choosing the new king. Bran saying he is the raven, not wanting to be the king, more kingdoms wanting to separate after they see Sansa do it, more tension and slower development of that decision.
I will really have to work hard to forget about all of that.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 20, 2022 0:03:10 GMT
I mean we do see her husband flirting/mkaing out with others in front of her in episode 1 yes but is that enough to justify her A) sleeping with her brother, commiting adultery and inces in the process and B) supporting if not provoking Jamie into pushing Bran out the window and C) mistreating Sansa and D) not controlling Jeoffry more which could have been achievable when he was still younger, before he was king. To me she was clearly a bad guy, always plotting, super petty, very manipulative and power hungry, similar like Daenery but smarter. Twincest was heterosexual masturbation. No big deal Besides, providing heirs to the king was good for stability. Cersei panicked in the tower and Jaime reacted the way he does. She scolded him for it two episodes later and again in S5E01: "You're a man of action, aren't you? When it occurs to you to do something, you do it. Never mind the consequences." This applies to several of Jaime's actions throughout the show. Pushing Bran was on him, not on her, and judging by what happened next to Joffrey's body later in the show, who's to say how that situation came to be in the first place? She did all she could to control Joffrey and was partly successful in S1 and even later to some extent (Joffrey will mention her twice to Sansa). Her conversation with him in S1E03 is reasoned and wise, going against his impractical impulses and teaching him the realities of feudal politics. Joffrey's misbehaviour is actually rooted in his missing an active father, who dies telling him "I should have shown you how to be a man". And indeed, Joffrey's actions are geared towards appearing manly ("but they are the soft hearts of women") which is why he later distanciates himself from his mother to let his future wife influence him instead. Mothers cannot win this. Cersei is not power hungry either. She has a paranoid, siege mentality, come as a consequence of marrying a victorious rebel whom her father had to finance so he could stay on the throne. When she says "everyone who isn't us is an enemy", it is true. So she takes control of things when Ned threatens to make a mess, works together with Tyrion in S2 (he is the one who doesn't and keeps undermining her) and goes happily back into an idle role the moment Tywin returns and she can feel safe again. She warns him against Margaery because she sees the obvious but does nothing until threatened again 2 seasons later. Power hungry is something else. At the end of S6, she takes the throne because no one else is left to claim it. Doing so avoids a power struggle, which is also what explains her acceptance by Tarly and any other lesser lords (the main reason kings come to power is because others do not wish to fight each other - this is how dynasties come into existence). I never saw Cersei as "a bad guy". She was once a young girl who wanted to be queen, like Sansa and every other girl who's not an angry hothead, then she had to fight to keep it or even stay alive. "You win or you die" was not a fantasy, it was what she saw happen when the Mad King fell and it basically defined her.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 20, 2022 0:28:05 GMT
I cant get over how poorly the choosing of the king was done in the end. So rushed. So stupid. This was maybe the worst thing in the whole show and guess what, it is the last thing the author told the showrunners had to happen. This is what makes me not even want to read further, in the event it ever comes out. Sure, the way it was done and Bran's general ineffectivity in the show was a complete farce but still I cannot accept the whole idea itself. At best, we get both the stupid trope of destiny and the idealistic nonsense of the all knowing ruler to make things good. I truly wanted something smarter from the man who pictured the intricacies of feudal politics in a way that at least pretended to look realistic (it wasn't, nevermind). I watched the Finale, by the way. I wanted to see this at least, and I couldn't believe how bad it was. Everything from the moment the dragon melts the throne (what stupid fucks think this was smart?) to the end is an utter cringe feast.
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Post by Marv on Jan 20, 2022 6:39:34 GMT
The show gave Cersei a fair amount of likeability and understanding, even in season 1. Book Cersei is void of 99 percent of that. All you really see it a pretentious entitled whore queen. really?? Now try and look pass the actress being hot. Where is the understanding coming from? I mean I liked the character how it was portrayed and developed, same like Littlefinger, both great bad guys, but I had very little understanding for her... I mean we do see her husband flirting/mkaing out with others in front of her in episode 1 yes but is that enough to justify her A) sleeping with her brother, commiting adultery and inces in the process and B) supporting if not provoking Jamie into pushing Bran out the window and C) mistreating Sansa and D) not controlling Jeoffry more which could have been achievable when he was still younger, before he was king. To me she was clearly a bad guy, always plotting, super petty, very manipulative and power hungry, similar like Daenery but smarter. (to be clear: I love the character, as in i enjoyed watching her be herself and wouldnt mind if she ended up on the Iron throne more permanently, it would have given new interesting plot lines to us, but I could see her marrying her son for how bad she was We know she was bad/super mean from early childhood too, so it wasnt all tywins fault. Either way, she was a great character and Lena portrayed her excellently. I wish she didnt feel so wasted in the last 2 seasons, mostly just staring out of the window. I know Emilia Clark wish she had had more scenes directly with Lena, and I think that would have been great to see them interact much more. Now throw in LittleFinger trying to manipulate both of them in the finale, and Tyrion saving the day (even if he died in the process) that would probably make me very happy as a viewer. To be clear…I’m not saying Cersei was a good person. But most people in this world aren’t good people and a fair portion of Cerseis logic early on is definitely to keep her and her children alive. A mothers protection makes sense to me. The huge wrinkle in her life is that she fell in love with her brother and incest wasn’t accepted at the time. Most of her misdeeds in season 1 are to cover up either her intimacy with her brother or her children a parentage…which could’ve cost them all their lives. So viewing her actions as someone who puts her immediate family first, most of her actions become understandable. Also she has a very touching moment with Robert about where things went wrong between them and open emotional conversations like that help to make both characters likeable to the audience.
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Post by Nora on Jan 21, 2022 17:28:13 GMT
really?? Now try and look pass the actress being hot. Where is the understanding coming from? I mean I liked the character how it was portrayed and developed, same like Littlefinger, both great bad guys, but I had very little understanding for her... To be clear…I’m not saying Cersei was a good person. But most people in this world aren’t good people and a fair portion of Cerseis logic early on is definitely to keep her and her children alive. A mothers protection makes sense to me. The huge wrinkle in her life is that she fell in love with her brother and incest wasn’t accepted at the time. Most of her misdeeds in season 1 are to cover up either her intimacy with her brother or her children a parentage…which could’ve cost them all their lives. So viewing her actions as someone who puts her immediate family first, most of her actions become understandable. Also she ha s a very touching moment with Robert about where things went wrong between them and open emotional conversations like that help to make both characters likeable to the audience.Oh yeah I forgot about that You are right, that was a very emotional scene. Well executed, it really showed us a lot of important context.
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