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Post by msdemos on Jan 8, 2022 22:03:54 GMT
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Post by twothousandonemark on Jan 9, 2022 5:18:38 GMT
Not sure no, considering it was highly likely the mafia who turned on the Kennedy's - after they did Jack the favour of helping his son win the WH, only to have RFK turn on the mob in return... or whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 19:50:40 GMT
I do wonder what is in those files. It could very well just be Cold War stuff loosely related to JFK that they don’t want known. Or it could confirm the involvement of others. Both are possible.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 9, 2022 20:16:21 GMT
Maybe to Boomers it still matters. In 20 years, when they’re all dead or completely senile, perhaps they’ll finally release the files saying that the CIA killed him.
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Post by mstreepsucks on Jan 10, 2022 2:39:39 GMT
The gov. did it.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 13, 2022 12:58:25 GMT
Lee Harvey Oswald and ONLY Lee Harvey Oswald did it. It's the solution that crosses the most "t's and dots the most "i's". His gun, his prints, his building. He shot a Dallas PD officer minutes later, he would have fried for that. If he was innocent, why? I've said it before, he was a man with nothing to lose. His marriage was over, he had been laughed at by the only thing he ever loved, Marxism. He was a mean spirited, wife beating loser in a dead end job, jealous of his brother and resentful of his mother. I think he seen that Kennedy was passing right in front of him and said "A blow for Marxist Cuba! Why not?"
Boring I know
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 14, 2022 9:43:42 GMT
Lee Harvey Oswald and ONLY Lee Harvey Oswald did it. It's the solution that crosses the most "t's and dots the most "i's". His gun, his prints, his building. He shot a Dallas PD officer minutes later, he would have fried for that. If he was innocent, why? I've said it before, he was a man with nothing to lose. His marriage was over, he had been laughed at by the only thing he ever loved, Marxism. He was a mean spirited, wife beating loser in a dead end job, jealous of his brother and resentful of his mother. I think he seen that Kennedy was passing right in front of him and said "A blow for Marxist Cuba! Why not?" Boring I know Clearly he had something to lose. Otherwise he would have admitted to being the killer.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 11:59:56 GMT
Lee Harvey Oswald and ONLY Lee Harvey Oswald did it. It's the solution that crosses the most "t's and dots the most "i's". His gun, his prints, his building. He shot a Dallas PD officer minutes later, he would have fried for that. If he was innocent, why? I've said it before, he was a man with nothing to lose. His marriage was over, he had been laughed at by the only thing he ever loved, Marxism. He was a mean spirited, wife beating loser in a dead end job, jealous of his brother and resentful of his mother. I think he seen that Kennedy was passing right in front of him and said "A blow for Marxist Cuba! Why not?" Boring I know Clearly he had something to lose. Otherwise he would have admitted to being the killer. Ever meet a narcissist? They can't admit any wrongdoing.
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 14, 2022 12:25:29 GMT
Clearly he had something to lose. Otherwise he would have admitted to being the killer. Ever meet a narcissist? They can't admit any wrongdoing.
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies?
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 13:06:02 GMT
Ever meet a narcissist? They can't admit any wrongdoing.
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. - I'll never say LHO fired those shots because of Marxism, just because Kennedy was an enemy of Cuba.
Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Not completely. But Oswald left his wedding ring and all his money on his dresser for Marina that day. And he took his "curtain rods" with him. It's all circumstantial sure, but Oswald alone isn't as thin as the rest.
Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? - NO. That was Oswald. He wanted to defect to Cuba and thought the Russians would vouch for him. They both just laughed at him. Betrayed by your one true love, kind of makes you want to do something drastic, no?
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Post by tommyrockarolla on Jan 14, 2022 13:51:17 GMT
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. - I'll never say LHO fired those shots because of Marxism, just because Kennedy was an enemy of Cuba.
Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Not completely. But Oswald left his wedding ring and all his money on his dresser for Marina that day. And he took his "curtain rods" with him. It's all circumstantial sure, but Oswald alone isn't as thin as the rest.
Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? - NO. That was Oswald. He wanted to defect to Cuba and thought the Russians would vouch for him. They both just laughed at him. Betrayed by your one true love, kind of makes you want to do something drastic, no?
I tend to agree. This is after being ‘pretty sure’ there was a big conspiracy the first half of my life. There is plenty of hard evidence against LHO. There’s only speculation turning towards suspicion anywhere else. And, BTW? A guy denied a lawyer, accused of murder, proclaiming his innocence? I don’t find anything odd or suspicious about that. If he wanted to get “credit”, he could have stayed on the sixth floor, where we KNOW he DID fire 3 shots from. If there is hard evidence against ANYONE in those files, I’d definitely entertain it. I’m not dogmatic about my conclusions, for sure. But? As of now, the only FACTS in the case are? LHO fired 3 shots from the book depot. The President was hit twice, once absolutely proven from that direction. LHO split his job, tried to hide, and shot a cop just for taking a hard look at him. Those are facts. All of Oswald’s schizophrenic political leanings and behaviors only add gas to the fire. But there’s already a roaring blaze without it. BTW, I’d be good with the release of those files. It is POSSIBLE LHO was working for the Russians, CIA, mob, who knows? Maybe even Castro. But he shot Kennedy. That’s about the only pure proven fact in the case. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 14:57:49 GMT
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. - I'll never say LHO fired those shots because of Marxism, just because Kennedy was an enemy of Cuba.
Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Not completely. But Oswald left his wedding ring and all his money on his dresser for Marina that day. And he took his "curtain rods" with him. It's all circumstantial sure, but Oswald alone isn't as thin as the rest.
Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? - NO. That was Oswald. He wanted to defect to Cuba and thought the Russians would vouch for him. They both just laughed at him. Betrayed by your one true love, kind of makes you want to do something drastic, no?
I tend to agree. This is after being ‘pretty sure’ there was a big conspiracy the first half of my life. There is plenty of hard evidence against LHO. There’s only speculation turning towards suspicion anywhere else. And, BTW? A guy denied a lawyer, accused of murder, proclaiming his innocence? I don’t find anything odd or suspicious about that. If he wanted to get “credit”, he could have stayed on the sixth floor, where we KNOW he DID fire 3 shots from. If there is hard evidence against ANYONE in those files, I’d definitely entertain it. I’m not dogmatic about my conclusions, for sure. But? As of now, the only FACTS in the case are? LHO fired 3 shots from the book depot. The President was hit twice, once absolutely proven from that direction. LHO split his job, tried to hide, and shot a cop just for taking a hard look at him. Those are facts. All of Oswald’s schizophrenic political leanings and behaviors only add gas to the fire. But there’s already a roaring blaze without it. BTW, I’d be good with the release of those files. It is POSSIBLE LHO was working for the Russians, CIA, mob, who knows? Maybe even Castro. But he shot Kennedy. That’s about the only pure proven fact in the case. I've also seen so many lies from conspiracy loons. Seen one ijit maintained in his video (can't find it) that no way could LHO get three shots off. He aimed, fired, then lifted the rifle up, ejected and chambered another round, dropped the rifle back, reaimed and fired again. What BS. No one who shot in the USMC would have done that. No need to raise the rifle to eject. I could make those shots, done similar things (Not at a car). I just can't see anyone taking the risk. Who
The Soviets - No way. That had agents to take out a president, only if he was a "Madman", threatening nukes. And if the US found out, oy vey. The Cubans - Nope. The agreements that ended the missile crisis pledged the US never to invade Cuba. The USSR backed it. If Castor was linked, adios, Fidel The CIA No. Why? Vietnam? JFK was gung ho for sticking our necks in to that swamp. No need The Cosa Nostra. No. Judith Exner brings down JFK or at least stops a 2nd term. A connection between the Mafia and LHO, poppycock. And despite RFK's bluster, the Mob was fine. WTF, they all went to jail or fled, Luciano, Genovese, Costello. And the FBI was happy to leave the Mob alone. Hoover didn't give two shits about OC, just Commies. The Mafia would have been crushed if the public found out about a connection.
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 14, 2022 15:16:50 GMT
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. - I'll never say LHO fired those shots because of Marxism, just because Kennedy was an enemy of Cuba.
Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Not completely. But Oswald left his wedding ring and all his money on his dresser for Marina that day. And he took his "curtain rods" with him. It's all circumstantial sure, but Oswald alone isn't as thin as the rest.
Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? - NO. That was Oswald. He wanted to defect to Cuba and thought the Russians would vouch for him. They both just laughed at him. Betrayed by your one true love, kind of makes you want to do something drastic, no?
Well that's not what the CIA thought:  And apparently Hoover and LBJ had a talk about someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico: 
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 15:25:00 GMT
Fair enough. But what I find weird is the whole "he killed him because he was dedicated Marxist or whatever [political reason] they can find but then he doesn't take all the glory. He rejects it. He claims that someone else did it. - I'll never say LHO fired those shots because of Marxism, just because Kennedy was an enemy of Cuba.
Obviously we will never know what Oswald was thinking because he was shot before heading to trial. And I believe that's really the main reason why conspiracies took off. That being said there is a bunch of circumstantial evidence of the conspiracy. Not completely. But Oswald left his wedding ring and all his money on his dresser for Marina that day. And he took his "curtain rods" with him. It's all circumstantial sure, but Oswald alone isn't as thin as the rest.
Wasn't someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico before the assassination? Attempting to go the Soviet and Cuban embassies? - NO. That was Oswald. He wanted to defect to Cuba and thought the Russians would vouch for him. They both just laughed at him. Betrayed by your one true love, kind of makes you want to do something drastic, no?
Well that's not what the CIA thought: And apparently Hoover and LBJ had a talk about someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico: The Soviets and the Cubans said it was Oswald. They documented his visit before the shooting. And there's a paper trail from Dallas to Mexico City for LHO. I always though Oswald, other than that pissy little smirk, had a very ordinary face.
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Post by tommyrockarolla on Jan 14, 2022 15:44:17 GMT
I tend to agree. This is after being ‘pretty sure’ there was a big conspiracy the first half of my life. There is plenty of hard evidence against LHO. There’s only speculation turning towards suspicion anywhere else. And, BTW? A guy denied a lawyer, accused of murder, proclaiming his innocence? I don’t find anything odd or suspicious about that. If he wanted to get “credit”, he could have stayed on the sixth floor, where we KNOW he DID fire 3 shots from. If there is hard evidence against ANYONE in those files, I’d definitely entertain it. I’m not dogmatic about my conclusions, for sure. But? As of now, the only FACTS in the case are? LHO fired 3 shots from the book depot. The President was hit twice, once absolutely proven from that direction. LHO split his job, tried to hide, and shot a cop just for taking a hard look at him. Those are facts. All of Oswald’s schizophrenic political leanings and behaviors only add gas to the fire. But there’s already a roaring blaze without it. BTW, I’d be good with the release of those files. It is POSSIBLE LHO was working for the Russians, CIA, mob, who knows? Maybe even Castro. But he shot Kennedy. That’s about the only pure proven fact in the case. I've also seen so many lies from conspiracy loons. Seen one ijit maintained in his video (can't find it) that no way could LHO get three shots off. He aimed, fired, then lifted the rifle up, ejected and chambered another round, dropped the rifle back, reaimed and fired again. What BS. No one who shot in the USMC would have done that. No need to raise the rifle to eject. I could make those shots, done similar things (Not at a car). I just can't see anyone taking the risk. Who
The Soviets - No way. That had agents to take out a president, only if he was a "Madman", threatening nukes. And if the US found out, oy vey. The Cubans - Nope. The agreements that ended the missile crisis pledged the US never to invade Cuba. The USSR backed it. If Castor was linked, adios, Fidel The CIA No. Why? Vietnam? JFK was gung ho for sticking our necks in to that swamp. No need The Cosa Nostra. No. Judith Exner brings down JFK or at least stops a 2nd term. A connection between the Mafia and LHO, poppycock. And despite RFK's bluster, the Mob was fine. WTF, they all went to jail or fled, Luciano, Genovese, Costello. And the FBI was happy to leave the Mob alone. Hoover didn't give two shits about OC, just Commies. The Mafia would have been crushed if the public found out about a connection.
I operate under the belief Oswald acted alone of his own volition. I believe he was the ‘perfect storm’ of a personality to possibly do something like this. But I wouldn’t rule out any of the others as potential “aid and abettor’s “. I don’t BELIEVE they did, but I’d entertain evidence if it existed. Only because any “plausible deniability” could easily fit in to the crazy white noise which exists around the events. Castro signing off on covert financial aid to a complete stranger through channels, would be, at the very least? Far more plausible than the intricate spider webs of conspiracy I’ve heard elsewhere. But as of now? I believe he acted alone. Also? Marine trained sharpshooter here (1980’s). I very well possibly could have made those shots back in the day. It’s no where near as ‘impossible’ as some of these conspiracy buffs say. Who even knows how much ‘practice’ Oswald may have added on to his training. Probably didn’t even have to show ID to ‘range fire’ back in 62-63. There’s certainly a lot of unknowns surrounding LHO. But what is known is, by far, the most compelling and damning. Certainly compared to all the other suspicions put together. IMO. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 15:52:38 GMT
I've also seen so many lies from conspiracy loons. Seen one ijit maintained in his video (can't find it) that no way could LHO get three shots off. He aimed, fired, then lifted the rifle up, ejected and chambered another round, dropped the rifle back, reaimed and fired again. What BS. No one who shot in the USMC would have done that. No need to raise the rifle to eject. I could make those shots, done similar things (Not at a car). I just can't see anyone taking the risk. Who
The Soviets - No way. That had agents to take out a president, only if he was a "Madman", threatening nukes. And if the US found out, oy vey. The Cubans - Nope. The agreements that ended the missile crisis pledged the US never to invade Cuba. The USSR backed it. If Castor was linked, adios, Fidel The CIA No. Why? Vietnam? JFK was gung ho for sticking our necks in to that swamp. No need The Cosa Nostra. No. Judith Exner brings down JFK or at least stops a 2nd term. A connection between the Mafia and LHO, poppycock. And despite RFK's bluster, the Mob was fine. WTF, they all went to jail or fled, Luciano, Genovese, Costello. And the FBI was happy to leave the Mob alone. Hoover didn't give two shits about OC, just Commies. The Mafia would have been crushed if the public found out about a connection.
. Also? Marine trained sharpshooter here (1980’s). I very well possibly could have made those shots back in the day. It’s no where near as ‘impossible’ as some of these conspiracy buffs say. Who even knows how much ‘practice’ Oswald may have added on to his training. Probably didn’t even have to show ID to ‘range fire’ back in 62-63. There’s certainly a lot of unknowns surrounding LHO. But what is known is, by far, the most compelling. Compared to everything else put together. IMO. I never served but I know damn well I could make those shots. Kill shots, probably not. I also know the difference between shooting a "moving" target and a "receding" target. Another hoot, "Why didn't LHO shoot when the limo was coming down Houston St, where he was closer. Gee, maybe because there was a windshield, an agent, and John Connelly's fat head in the way. BUT, the Zapruder Film does make it look like the head shot comes from JFK's front and right. I've read it can be explained but it makes me wonder.
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Post by tommyrockarolla on Jan 14, 2022 16:41:02 GMT
. Also? Marine trained sharpshooter here (1980’s). I very well possibly could have made those shots back in the day. It’s no where near as ‘impossible’ as some of these conspiracy buffs say. Who even knows how much ‘practice’ Oswald may have added on to his training. Probably didn’t even have to show ID to ‘range fire’ back in 62-63. There’s certainly a lot of unknowns surrounding LHO. But what is known is, by far, the most compelling. Compared to everything else put together. IMO. I never served but I know damn well I could make those shots. Kill shots, probably not. I also know the difference between shooting a "moving" target and a "receding" target. Another hoot, "Why didn't LHO shoot when the limo was coming down Houston St, where he was closer. Gee, maybe because there was a windshield, an agent, and John Connelly's fat head in the way. BUT, the Zapruder Film does make it look like the head shot comes from JFK's front and right. I've read it can be explained but it makes me wonder.
The Zapruder Film and Ruby shooting Oswald are really what gives the conspiracy believers oxygen. I believe I could have hit an object from that distance/motion 40 years ago. Maybe not the direct hit, but? Certainly in the neighborhood. The front/right explanation is fairly simple; the instant the bullet pierced his rear, it exploded his head, like a watermelon. The force of his skull blowing out forward, blew his head back, like a rocket almost. Thankfully I can’t speak personally to this, but? It does strike me as plausible, for sure. But, the film, Oswald’s murder, and Jack Ruby being a ‘player’, will always leave a lot of room for speculation. Unless there IS some hard concrete evidence in those files: EVIDENCE, not FASCINATING SUSPICIONS. 😇🇺🇸👍🏻 |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jan 14, 2022 17:33:04 GMT
I never served but I know damn well I could make those shots. Kill shots, probably not. I also know the difference between shooting a "moving" target and a "receding" target. Another hoot, "Why didn't LHO shoot when the limo was coming down Houston St, where he was closer. Gee, maybe because there was a windshield, an agent, and John Connelly's fat head in the way. BUT, the Zapruder Film does make it look like the head shot comes from JFK's front and right. I've read it can be explained but it makes me wonder.
The Zapruder Film and Ruby shooting Oswald are really what gives the conspiracy believers oxygen. I believe I could have hit an object from that distance/motion 40 years ago. Maybe not the direct hit, but? Certainly in the neighborhood. The front/right explanation is fairly simple; the instant the bullet pierced his rear, it exploded his head, like a watermelon. The force of his skull blowing out forward, blew his head back, like a rocket almost. Thankfully I can’t speak personally to this, but? It does strike me as plausible, for sure. But, the film, Oswald’s murder, and Jack Ruby being a ‘player’, will always leave a lot of room for speculation. Unless there IS some hard concrete evidence in those files: EVIDENCE, not FASCINATING SUSPICIONS. 😇🇺🇸👍🏻 Conspiracy rap is fun. "I know something you don't know" is a powerful tug on your self esteem
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 31, 2022 10:21:12 GMT
Lee Harvey Oswald and ONLY Lee Harvey Oswald did it. It's the solution that crosses the most "t's and dots the most "i's". His gun, his prints, his building. He shot a Dallas PD officer minutes later, he would have fried for that. If he was innocent, why? I've said it before, he was a man with nothing to lose. His marriage was over, he had been laughed at by the only thing he ever loved, Marxism. He was a mean spirited, wife beating loser in a dead end job, jealous of his brother and resentful of his mother. I think he seen that Kennedy was passing right in front of him and said "A blow for Marxist Cuba! Why not?" Boring I know I agree pretty much. He was always a loose cannon and there’s nothing that directly ties him to any conspiracy. However, it’s no secret plenty wanted JFK dead at the time. No more so than the Chicago Mob who worked with the Southern organizations in New Orleans and Dallas and whom he and Bobby were trying to shutdown. But Sam Giancana, who once shared a mistress with JFK, thought Kennedy owed him for delivering the Cook County vote. After the Mafia were the anti-Castro, CIA backed Cuban forces stationed in New Orleans who also has strong ties to the NO mob and felt betrayed by the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy shutting them down…and their Mob friends losing their very lucrative Cuban territory. Then a night club owner, also in with the Chicago Mob and in with the DPD, shot and killed Oswald inside the police station so he was forever silenced and there could be no trial. Rudy himself rotted in the Dallas jail cell, he never went to prison, because his first capital case was declared a mistrial and Belli kept him out of court until Ruby died of cancer. Now, you’d think the Warren Commission would want to talk to him, but they never did. Per Ruby’s first trial attorney, Ruby had worked with Cuban gunrunners. Then there are the other oddities. The three men pulled from a boxcar, the so-called Three Tramps. These men disappeared after being questioned and released. One of them was a deadringer for Charles Harrelson, Woody’s father and known professional assassin. There is the unusual activity in the rail yard parking lot behind the fence of the grassy knoll so testified by the man who worked in the yard tower and rail yard workers and police officer who claimed they heard a shot and saw a puff of smoke behind…. And there are many things like this that do pile up. They are probably all coincidences, however because there are so many and can be documented, the JFK conspiracy theories have a plausible rationale to them that other conspiracies, like Pizzagate, don’t. Not that you’ve said this, but it’s not crazy to think more than one person was involved in the assassination. Charles Harrelson also made the claim the he was involved in the assassination. Another "suspect" of being one of the tramps, Chauncey Holt also said that Harrelson was one of the "tramps". Another claim is that the two of the tree tramps are E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis, the guys involved in the Watergate break in. Hunt's kids did claim that his father made a deathbed confession about his involvement in the Kennedy assassination.
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Post by Rufus-T on Feb 7, 2022 21:56:04 GMT
An interest talk I heard related to this...
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