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Post by papamihel on Jan 11, 2022 9:31:46 GMT
I like Jordan Peterson but I am a little puzzled by his obsession with God. I mean, initially he presented sort of a secular vision of the Divine - like being aware of the Universe and humanity beyond the basics of one's existence. Knowing history, appreciating art and just sort of understanding that your own moment in time is not everything there is. I could totally dig that.
Then he started talking about Christ being created to serve as an ideal for humans or something like that. And aesthetically I can appreciate it but one has to ask: why Christ? Why not Athena or Osiris?
More recently, I think, he said he can no longer consider himself an atheist. He still discusses religion as a psychologist but... It feels different. I am not that interested in theology, Religion for me is a mirror to humanity - nothing more.
Anyhow, he is big on how important Western culture of individualism was for the creation of modern civilization and, obviously, I agree. However he believes religion to be one of the roots of Western individualism. I can see this in Christianity but Peterson quotes the Old Testament (Torah) to prove his point. Personally, I don't see it. I think Judaism is a very "collectivist" religion. It certainly is now and, I believe, it always was.
Am I missing something here? Do any of you think there is something in this?
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Hnefahogg
Sophomore
@hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 11, 2022 10:00:41 GMT
He explains why not Muhammad here:
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Post by rizdek on Jan 11, 2022 11:17:54 GMT
I like Jordan Peterson but I am a little puzzled by his obsession with God. I mean, initially he presented sort of a secular vision of the Divine - like being aware of the Universe and humanity beyond the basics of one's existence. Knowing history, appreciating art and just sort of understanding that your own moment in time is not everything there is. I could totally dig that. Then he started talking about Christ being created to serve as an ideal for humans or something like that. And aesthetically I can appreciate it but one has to ask: why Christ? Why not Athena or Osiris? More recently, I think, he said he can no longer consider himself an atheist. He still discusses religion as a psychologist but... It feels different. I am not that interested in theology, Religion for me is a mirror to humanity - nothing more. Anyhow, he is big on how important Western culture of individualism was for the creation of modern civilization and, obviously, I agree. However he believes religion to be one of the roots of Western individualism. I can see this in Christianity but Peterson quotes the Old Testament (Torah) to prove his point. Personally, I don't see it. I think Judaism is a very "collectivist" religion. It certainly is now and, I believe, it always was. Am I missing something here? Do any of you think there is something in this? First...as to his fascination about God. I totally understand that. I thoroughly enjoy discussing/ruminating on the 'idea' of a god, gods or God. But it's so hard to find anyone who wants to discuss it objectively...ie without having a strong opinion one way or the other and without the baggage of having their very 'being' and 'identity' tied up in whether there IS a god and if there is...what is said God like.
As to him no longer considering himself an atheist, I wonder if it is due to him rethinking what atheist means or if it reflects a change is what the concept of god/God is or is he actually changing his basic beliefs about God? For me...I'm pretty certain there isn't a 'god' like the Christian God or any of the other major religion's gods. But if I entertain the idea of some sort of universal consciousness...a consciousness 'field' that gives humans and other life forms our consciousness, am I entertaining the idea there might be a 'god' and that I am no longer an atheist?
As to the third, since one can cherry pick from a myriad of ideas from ANY religion, it seems it would be easy to find a basis for almost anything in almost any religion. What about Christianity makes you think it was critical/important/a foundation for 'Western individualism?' First, define what you mean by Western individualism and then which parts of Christianity from. say, the NT promotes this individualism? Seems to me lots of Paul's teachings were anything but promoting individualism. How does what he says compare with Acts where the author speaks of all being in one accord?
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 11, 2022 11:30:22 GMT
You could scour the OT and NT for passages that support either individualism or collectivism to suit your political purposes if you want. Politically, Peterson and, importantly, his audience lean towards both individualism and Western traditionalism (which includes Christianity) so (perhaps unconsciously) he is drawn to Christian passages that seem to support individualism and passes over those that do not. A liberation theologian on the other hand sees Christianity as supporting collectivism and egalitarianism, ignoring the passages that run against that.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 11, 2022 11:55:08 GMT
As to the third, since one can cherry pick from a myriad of ideas from ANY religion, it seems it would be easy to find a basis for almost anything in almost any religion. What about Christianity makes you think it was critical/important/a foundation for 'Western individualism?' First, define what you mean by Western individualism and then which parts of Christianity from. say, the NT promotes this individualism? Seems to me lots of Paul's teachings were anything but promoting individualism. How does what he says compare with Acts where the author speaks of all being in one accord?
I think I will avoid the question about "what I mean by Western individualism". It's a really big and critical subject and deserves its own thread. I will also need to think how to define my views on that. As for Christianity... The way I understand Judaism from my own reading and (absolutely unavoidable if you live in Israel) discussions with devout orthodox and ultra-orthodox believers is that Jews have a communal responsibility to bring their (our) level of righteousness to the point which would trigger the coming of the Messiah. And then you have a class\caste of professional priests who direct you how to get there better. And Jesus changed it to a very personal relationship of every man or woman with God. No middlemen, no professionals - just pure belief. I think that makes Christianity very individualistic in its core. Despite the best efforts of both Western and Eastern churches.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 11, 2022 11:56:23 GMT
You could scour the OT and NT for passages that support either individualism or collectivism to suit your political purposes if you want. Politically, Peterson and, importantly, his audience lean towards both individualism and Western traditionalism (which includes Christianity) so (perhaps unconsciously) he is drawn to Christian passages that seem to support individualism and passes over those that do not. A liberation theologian on the other hand sees Christianity as supporting collectivism and egalitarianism, ignoring the passages that run against that. It's possible. Although I'd like to believe his professional skill would allow him to avoid this very obvious trap.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 11, 2022 13:50:27 GMT
I mean not sure what you're saying. Are you asking how crucial Christianity was to the development of "Western individualism"? That was born out the enlightenment/classical liberalism, people who rejected the power structures of the church and the feudal system and wanted to "liberate" themselves from it (or "liberalism" to be more exact) and from there we got what you would call "western individualism" (democracy, secularism, free speech, private property). Funny you mention the Old Testament, I would argue the New Testament was more collectivist (the teachings of Jesus in particular).
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Post by gadreel on Jan 11, 2022 18:01:43 GMT
Then he started talking about Christ being created to serve as an ideal for humans or something like that. And aesthetically I can appreciate it but one has to ask: why Christ? Why not Athena or Osiris? I dont know about Jordan Peterson that much, frankly the guy bugs me too much to listen to before I even figure out what he is talking about. The Christ figures journey is sometimes used as an allegory of the spiritual journey, the temptation, the rising above, being reborn as a spiritual being, I guess he uses Christ as that as he is talking to a western audience and so it will speak to them (and him) with more authority.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 13, 2022 4:37:15 GMT
I suppose he'd argue that Christianity is based on Judaism, hence his quoting the Torah or citing Judaism as an influence on the "west". It's bullshit, but he is full of bullshit, so I guess it makes sense for him to say that.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 13, 2022 4:41:29 GMT
I don't where Peterson is getting the "individualism" part of Christianity. If that were so, then there would no reason for any Christian to belong to a church. He is talking about the "ideas of Christ". Not about the organized religion or any church.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 13, 2022 4:44:43 GMT
I suppose he'd argue that Christianity is based on Judaism, hence his quoting the Torah or citing Judaism as an influence on the "west". It's bullshit, but he is full of bullshit, so I guess it makes sense for him to say that. You can't really argue that Judaism is one of the fundamental building blocks of both Western and Muslim civilizations. Even now. There is, for example, so much in "wokeness" which reeks of Puritan mentality. But I am talking here about a very specific and rather unique trait of the Western civilization.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 13, 2022 4:45:43 GMT
He went through a health crisis several years ago. That often makes people turn to religion. I thought about it too. It would be a bit disappointed if this is so.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 13, 2022 4:54:19 GMT
I suppose he'd argue that Christianity is based on Judaism, hence his quoting the Torah or citing Judaism as an influence on the "west". It's bullshit, but he is full of bullshit, so I guess it makes sense for him to say that. You can't really argue that Judaism is one of the fundamental building blocks of both Western and Muslim civilizations. Even now. There is, for example, so much in "wokeness" which reeks of Puritan mentality. But I am talking here about a very specific and rather unique trait of the Western civilization. Are you specifically talking about "western" individualism? That's a consequence of (among other thing) the Protestant Reformation. Peterson would argue that you can't get Protestants without Catholics, and you can't get Catholicism without Judaism from which Christianity developed from. It's not a very convincing argument, I agree, but I believe that's what he'd say.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 13, 2022 5:05:28 GMT
You can't really argue that Judaism is one of the fundamental building blocks of both Western and Muslim civilizations. Even now. There is, for example, so much in "wokeness" which reeks of Puritan mentality. But I am talking here about a very specific and rather unique trait of the Western civilization. Are you specifically talking about "western" individualism? That's a consequence of (among other thing) the Protestant Reformation. Peterson would argue that you can't get Protestants without Catholics, and you can't get Catholicism without Judaism from which Christianity developed from. It's not a very convincing argument, I agree, but I believe that's what he'd say. I think you are talking about... Individualism as an ideology. Culturally it predates the Reformation. It's been around at least since the Archaic Greek Period and then it re-emerged with Christianity. In fact, I think (although I'm not sure I can explain it convincingly) the Reformation was partly triggered by the Church's attempt to walk away from Christianity's individualistic roots.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 13, 2022 7:17:04 GMT
I think you are talking about... Individualism as an ideology. Culturally it predates the Reformation. It's been around at least since the Archaic Greek Period and then it re-emerged with Christianity. In fact, I think (although I'm not sure I can explain it convincingly) the Reformation was partly triggered by the Church's attempt to walk away from Christianity's individualistic roots. I'm sure individualism has been around far longer than the Archaic Greek Period, whether you want to call it an ideology or not. For as long as civilization has been, there has been the individual. The question is to what role the individual had in society, and which individual, and how many, had any say as how society was ran. When it comes to ancient Greece, we should keep in mind that the culture and society we read about in ancient Greece is coming from the privileged few in Athens who had wealth, owned slaves, and generally had the luxury of free time to wile away the days writing down their musings. Plato's, Sophocle's, and Thucydide's experiences were not the norm in classical Athens and sure as fuck weren't the norm in the rest of classical Greece. So, when they talk freely about Greek life, politics, religion, and culture I tend to take their talk with boulder sized grains of salt. Life, for the vast majority of Greeks was a feudal shit hole, like it was for most people the world over at that time.
As for Christianity's individualistic roots...you're going to need to explain that. As far as I see it, the earliest forms of Christianity are all about building a community at the expense of the individual. In its earliest years this was a smart survival tactic, considering the sporadic persecution Christians had to endure from Roman authorities made individualism a liability in the Roman Empire. As Christianity gained prominence, the individual became even more obfuscated as the dogma that coalesced into Roman Catholicism weeded out gnostic teachings and persecuted heretics, forcing all Christians to adhere to orthodoxy. The power and prominence of the church increased throughout the middle ages at the further expense of the individual. It was the Protestant Reformation that broke this trend. Protestantism removed the need of the structured Catholic hierarchy to mediate belief in God. It was now up to the individual. Everyone had their own relationship to God, which resulted in the scattershot of Protestant denominations. Some Protestant leaders bent more towards free thought and expression and others became more even repressive, proto-"woke"...but they're all the result of the rejection of Catholic orthodoxy which suppressed the individuals ability to mediate their relationship to god by forcing all Christians to adhere to their teachings. The Protestant Reformation turned Christianity into a market, with all sorts of denominations to suit every individuals taste.
So, with Protestantism comes Capitalism, and with Capitalism comes the erosion of 'morals' and 'values' that the Catholic Church upheld via its repressive authoritarianism. Peterson likes Capitalism for the wealth and "freedom" it has granted Europeans, and their colonial successors such as himself, at the expense of the rest of the world, but he abhors the erosion of religiousness and "Judeo-Christian" values that are the consequences of Capitalism. Like so many other right-wing "thinkers", he cannot bridge this divide, and so he must obfuscate when called on the many contradictions in his own thought. An example: on one appearance on Joe Rogan, he bemoaned the lefts obsession with equality of outcome saying that that no one will ever achieve the same outcome in any one area because of inherent differences in ability amongst individuals, and to try to force equality is destructive to the will of the individual (equality = communism blah blah blah). Then, IN THE SAME FUCKING INTERVIEW, he suggested that forced monogamy (like Marx in regards to communism, he doesn't explain how that would work) would be good in counterin the weakening of the nuclear family (nevermind that the nuclear family is a purely modern invention) and declining birthrates in 'western' countries (why this is a big deal, he doesn't go into). Joe Rogan actually called him out on this by correctly pointing out that a forced monogamy program would eradicate the individuals ability to find sexual partners...something that some people are better at than others...and so it promotes equality of outcome which is EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING THING THAT PETERSON HAS BEEN BITCHING ABOUT FOR HIS ENTIRE TIME IN THE PUBLIC LIMELIGHT. Peterson only responds by saying, "Oh, hmm I hadn't thought of it like that, but I still think I'm kind of right" and appealing to drivel about the well being of children being preeminent over hot dudes getting their dicks wet every night (nevermind that existing government programs like foodstamps help impoverished children, but promote 'equality of outcome' by his deranged mindset) and Joe is too stupid to hold his feet to the fire, so it doesn't go any further.
TLDR, Peterson doesn't know what he's talking about on any subject. He likes 'western culture' because as a privileged white Canadian, he has benefited from 'western culture'. And he thinks that religion, specifically of the 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, is important because it has been the dominant religion of 'western culture' in one form or another. That's it. That's as deep as it goes. He likes the culture he was born into because he has lived a comfortable life thanks to that culture. This informs and reinforces his worldview, and he will bend and contort his beliefs to keep the structure standing.
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Post by papamihel on Jan 13, 2022 10:11:51 GMT
Just going by what you’ve said he said, Peterson doesn’t know too much about Christianity’s history. Sounds like Neoplatonism. Particular during the Middle Ages, there was the greater outer-church and more spiritualism, arcane inter-church of theologians…not unlike how Kabbalah is to Judaism. Well, this is why I brought this up. There is every possibility that he is projecting his ideas as a psychologist and possibly a philosopher to religion. It's like when some people talk about God you feel they mean God in Bach's chorales or in Renaissance paintings and not the one from the Scripture, if you know what I mean.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 14, 2022 7:31:52 GMT
Peterson's stance on anything these days relates directly to the right-wing speaking circuit which pays for his drug habit. The drugs really messed him up. Once upon a time he was brilliant in his field of study and an exceptional speaker, but he hasn't been that for some years now.
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