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Post by rizdek on Mar 22, 2022 15:41:18 GMT
if there is a God who decides humans have value and....exactly how much value they have.
I have attached a video below....hopefully it'll show up at the point I intended where the proponent for theism talks about the problem atheist have...their 'existential crisis.'
AT the 39:00 mark, he talks about how 'in atheism' we haven't any reason to think human beings are special. He answers the question, 'no.' We're just evolved creatures, the result of accident and chance, etc.
Ok, so we can take that view, but does he offer any real alternative? He says the atheist view reduces 'us to cosmic junk.' But what does he say? Presumably he goes on to say humans have value because....God. But, if we take his view at face value, we are just 'God's junk.' We have no real intrinsic value, except that God created us and arbitrarily decides we are of value. But what is God's basis for saying humans have value? Just because he created us? Does God have any real reason, any rationale, any particular ability/feature/characteristic that he can point to to say THIS is why humans have value. If so...then THAT rationale, those features are WHY humans have value. If NOT then really, we're just...how does he put it, 'cosmic junk' or more precisely in his view, 'God junk' that God decided, quite arbitrarily to value and to cause us all to FEEL is of value even though humans have no real intrinsic value. Based on that rationale, God could have decided whales, dolphins, elephants or even rain drops have ultimate value and badda bink badda boom, THOSE things are of ultimate value and humans...who have not real basic intrinsic value are worthless 'divine junk.'
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 22, 2022 17:31:10 GMT
if there is a God who decides humans have value and....exactly how much value they have.
I have attached a video below....hopefully it'll show up at the point I intended where the proponent for theism talks about the problem atheist have...their 'existential crisis.'
AT the 39:00 mark, he talks about how 'in atheism' we haven't any reason to think human beings are special. He answers the question, 'no.' We're just evolved creatures, the result of accident and chance, etc.
Ok, so we can take that view, but does he offer any real alternative? He says the atheist view reduces 'us to cosmic junk.' But what does he say? Presumably he goes on to say humans have value because....God. But, if we take his view at face value, we are just 'God's junk.' We have no real intrinsic value, except that God created us and arbitrarily decides we are of value. But what is God's basis for saying humans have value? Just because he created us? Does God have any real reason, any rationale, any particular ability/feature/characteristic that he can point to to say THIS is why humans have value. If so...then THAT rationale, those features are WHY humans have value. If NOT then really, we're just...how does he put it, 'cosmic junk' or more precisely in his view, 'God junk' that God decided, quite arbitrarily to value and to cause us all to FEEL is of value even though humans have no real intrinsic value. Based on that rationale, God could have decided whales, dolphins, elephants or even rain drops have ultimate value and badda bink badda boom, THOSE things are of ultimate value and humans...who have not real basic intrinsic value are worthless 'divine junk.'
So, as I see it, the theist wants people to believe in a god for which there is no direct evidence, because they want to not think of themselves as 'cosmic junk'? Who determines what is 'junk'? And what is the rest of our world, just junk for us to have dominion over? And the point of that is... ? Beautiful waterfalls, towering trees, amazing animals are 'junk'? As an agnostic atheist, I struggle sometimes with the knowledge that we really are just evolved beings, some smart, some not, and there is no meaning to life except what each individual assigns to it. But I cannot believe in an omniscient, all-powerful god that allows things like smallpox and Ebola virus to exist, just because Eve made Adam eat the apple, too, and god wanted us to remain ignorant of knowledge, just like the animals, too. Why bother at all? Why create sentient beings capable of suffering, just because he has nothing better to do? Are we just a youthful god's science experiment gone awry and we were left unattended, and this is the outcome? Sorry, we are just evolved creatures, with not quite big enough brains to deal with it. So we created gods, lots of them, as long as there have been humans.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 22, 2022 18:39:41 GMT
if there is a God who decides humans have value and....exactly how much value they have.
I have attached a video below....hopefully it'll show up at the point I intended where the proponent for theism talks about the problem atheist have...their 'existential crisis.'
AT the 39:00 mark, he talks about how 'in atheism' we haven't any reason to think human beings are special. He answers the question, 'no.' We're just evolved creatures, the result of accident and chance, etc.
Ok, so we can take that view, but does he offer any real alternative? He says the atheist view reduces 'us to cosmic junk.' But what does he say? Presumably he goes on to say humans have value because....God. But, if we take his view at face value, we are just 'God's junk.' We have no real intrinsic value, except that God created us and arbitrarily decides we are of value. But what is God's basis for saying humans have value? Just because he created us? Does God have any real reason, any rationale, any particular ability/feature/characteristic that he can point to to say THIS is why humans have value. If so...then THAT rationale, those features are WHY humans have value. If NOT then really, we're just...how does he put it, 'cosmic junk' or more precisely in his view, 'God junk' that God decided, quite arbitrarily to value and to cause us all to FEEL is of value even though humans have no real intrinsic value. Based on that rationale, God could have decided whales, dolphins, elephants or even rain drops have ultimate value and badda bink badda boom, THOSE things are of ultimate value and humans...who have not real basic intrinsic value are worthless 'divine junk.'
So, as I see it, the theist wants people to believe in a god for which there is no direct evidence, because they want to not think of themselves as 'cosmic junk'? Who determines what is 'junk'? And what is the rest of our world, just junk for us to have dominion over? And the point of that is... ? Beautiful waterfalls, towering trees, amazing animals are 'junk'? As an agnostic atheist, I struggle sometimes with the knowledge that we really are just evolved beings, some smart, some not, and there is no meaning to life except what each individual assigns to it. But I cannot believe in an omniscient, all-powerful god that allows things like smallpox and Ebola virus to exist, just because Eve made Adam eat the apple, too, and god wanted us to remain ignorant of knowledge, just like the animals, too. Why bother at all? Why create sentient beings capable of suffering, just because he has nothing better to do? Are we just a youthful god's science experiment gone awry and we were left unattended, and this is the outcome? Sorry, we are just evolved creatures, with not quite big enough brains to deal with it. So we created gods, lots of them, as long as there have been humans. Frankly, an evolved creature...like humans is an marvelous thing...something that makes us incredibly valuable and likely rather rare in the cosmos. If there are more than 3 such life forms in the milky galaxy alone, I'd be very surprised and not at all surprised if we are alone in our galaxy as sentient beings. But if we're the product of a god's decision, planning, and efforts, I think we're pretty piss poor with all our ignorance/cruelty/frailties/weaknesses/phobias/illnesses/susceptibilities. It's almost like we were programed to be faulty and to succumb to the smallest of obstacles. As evolutionary products, we are amazing, as a special creation by an omnipotent caring god, we suck.
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Post by mystery on Mar 22, 2022 21:37:38 GMT
The only way suffering makes any sense to me is reincarnation. If we're here to learn from our struggles and triumphs, then there's a reason for hardship, because that's where our lessons are and where we grow. I even tend to categorize people by soul age. With older souls, there's more depth and wisdom there, and I have an instant rapport with them. With younger souls, it's almost like we're entirely different species, and I can't relate to them any more than they can relate to me.
I was like that even as a child. One of my earliest memories was looking at myself in the bathroom mirror, and telling my Mom that I didn't used to look like this, that I had brown hair and I was a grown up. I look young for my age, but I always felt very old inside. Even when I was growing up, I felt like I was older than my Mom, and even my grandmothers. My gifts and talents are all over the board, and nothing remotely like the rest of my family members. Reincarnation is really the only thing that helps me make sense of myself and others.
And on a purely practical level, I also think it's very beneficial for people to look at life's challenges as an opportunity for growth, rather than just feeling broken and victimized. Without challenges, we'd all remain very shallow and childlike, so even pain has a purpose. Eventually, there comes a point where all the pain fades away, and all that's left is something beautiful. And I cherish that.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2022 5:04:56 GMT
Belief in the supernatural is irrational so you can't expect rational arguments from deists.
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Post by mystery on Mar 23, 2022 5:55:37 GMT
Belief in the supernatural is irrational so you can't expect rational arguments from deists. Meh. My views are based on my own personal experiences and philosophies, and I'm pretty unapologetic about that. It's not based on physical sciences, but we're not talking about the physical sciences. And the truth is, none of us has access to the full picture here. I'm pretty pragmatic about spirituality. If it answers questions about my unusual life experiences, and it helps me to live a better life, then that's really all that I can ask for. It's just unfortunate that atheists tend to assume that theism prevents people from living life to the fullest. For me, it's quite the opposite. Spirituality has enabled me to live my life without fear holding me back, and I've seen and done things beyond any of my wildest dreams. It's honestly mindboggling. And the truth is, even if I'm wrong, I still have absolutely no regrets. It's been a great life, and I've learned a lot, and followed my dreams, and explored the planet, and human cultures, and myself as an individual. It's been one hell of a journey, and I wouldn't change a thing.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2022 6:51:38 GMT
Belief in the supernatural is irrational so you can't expect rational arguments from deists. Meh. My views are based on my own personal experiences and philosophies, and I'm pretty unapologetic about that. It's not based on physical sciences, but we're not talking about the physical sciences. And the truth is, none of us has access to the full picture here. I'm pretty pragmatic about spirituality. If it answers questions about my unusual life experiences, and it helps me to live a better life, then that's really all that I can ask for. It's just unfortunate that atheists tend to assume that theism prevents people from living life to the fullest. For me, it's quite the opposite. Spirituality has enabled me to live my life without fear holding me back, and I've seen and done things beyond any of my wildest dreams. It's honestly mindboggling. And the truth is, even if I'm wrong, I still have absolutely no regrets. It's been a great life, and I've learned a lot, and followed my dreams, and explored the planet, and human cultures, and myself as an individual. It's been one hell of a journey, and I wouldn't change a thing. That sounds amazing, honestly. I have no qualms about individuals following their own path, even if it's irrational, and I don't understand those who take issue with others making different choices. You can marry a goat for all I care, if the goat doesn't mind. Guy in the video is putting himself out there and is fair game though. Religion puts itself out there constantly. Religion wants to control if, where and when I can buy booze. Who I sleep with and how. What women wear. What I say. What I worship, or don't. What is taught in schools. Religion is about power and I oppose all forms of it. Belief in the irrational is fine until the moment when you decide I need to treat that irrational belief as real.
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Post by Admin on Mar 23, 2022 7:58:24 GMT
So, as I see it, the theist wants people to believe in a god for which there is no direct evidence, because they want to not think of themselves as 'cosmic junk'? This theist doesn't believe because he wants to, let alone to avoid thinking of himself as "cosmic junk." Furthermore, I also believe it's a determination to be made by the individual, and so IMHO, proselytizing defeats its own purpose. I don't know about anyone else, but I, personally, have never looked for a footprint to prove the existence of feet. But if I see one, I'll argue with anybody who tells me it made itself or that it has existed forever...at least not in a causal universe that precludes such an action.
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Post by Sarge on Mar 23, 2022 16:08:31 GMT
It boils down to the theist having been brainwashed and doesn't think for himself. Since birth he has been told it's reasonable to believe there is an intangible super being that requires humans to believe sans evidence or be punished for eternity, also it needs 10% of your income, and has arbitrary and inconsistent rules for how to live. Everyone around him accepts this, which makes it normal and seemingly reasonable despite the obvious ludicrousness to anyone with an outside vantage. Atheists use the Easter Bunny as an example because it is exactly the same thing, a ludicrous idea that falls apart under scrutiny. Thankfully the Easter Bunny doesn't threaten us with eternal hellfire for doubting his existence.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 23, 2022 16:25:05 GMT
It boils down to the theist having been brainwashed and doesn't think for himself. Since birth he has been told it's reasonable to believe there is an intangible super being that requires humans to believe sans evidence or be punished for eternity, also it needs 10% of your income, and has arbitrary and inconsistent rules for how to live. Everyone around him accepts this, which makes it normal and seemingly reasonable despite the obvious ludicrousness to anyone with an outside vantage. Atheists use the Easter Bunny as an example because it is exactly the same thing, a ludicrous idea that falls apart under scrutiny. Thankfully the Easter Bunny doesn't threaten us with eternal hellfire for doubting his existence. Are you sure about that Easter Bunny? I mean, those ears kinda look like horns... I was raised as a brainwashed kid until, in my teens, certain inconsistencies became evident, and by the time I was in my 30s I was agnostic. I consider myself an agnostic atheist now, and honestly can't imagine why any thinking person would accept this belief system.
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Post by mystery on Mar 23, 2022 16:36:55 GMT
It boils down to the theist having been brainwashed and doesn't think for himself. Since birth he has been told it's reasonable to believe there is an intangible super being that requires humans to believe sans evidence or be punished for eternity, also it needs 10% of your income, and has arbitrary and inconsistent rules for how to live. Everyone around him accepts this, which makes it normal and seemingly reasonable despite the obvious ludicrousness to anyone with an outside vantage. Atheists use the Easter Bunny as an example because it is exactly the same thing, a ludicrous idea that falls apart under scrutiny. Thankfully the Easter Bunny doesn't threaten us with eternal hellfire for doubting his existence. The Easter Bunny was co-opted from paganism, who viewed hares as a symbol of fertility, and Nature reawakening after a long winter's slumber. Many things in religion are symbols and archetypes, rather than literal fact. I've never understood what fertility symbols like bunnies and eggs have to do with Christianity, except for perhaps Christ reawakening from the dead, although that still seems to be quite a stretch. I think they mostly just wanted to convert the godless heathens, so they stole their holidays and holy sites. It's a bit annoying that they didn't have the creativity to come up with their own holidays.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 24, 2022 13:54:05 GMT
Belief in the supernatural is irrational so you can't expect rational arguments from deists. Meh. My views are based on my own personal experiences and philosophies, and I'm pretty unapologetic about that. It's not based on physical sciences, but we're not talking about the physical sciences. And the truth is, none of us has access to the full picture here. I'm pretty pragmatic about spirituality. If it answers questions about my unusual life experiences, and it helps me to live a better life, then that's really all that I can ask for. It's just unfortunate that atheists tend to assume that theism prevents people from living life to the fullest. For me, it's quite the opposite. Spirituality has enabled me to live my life without fear holding me back, and I've seen and done things beyond any of my wildest dreams. It's honestly mindboggling. And the truth is, even if I'm wrong, I still have absolutely no regrets. It's been a great life, and I've learned a lot, and followed my dreams, and explored the planet, and human cultures, and myself as an individual. It's been one hell of a journey, and I wouldn't change a thing. There is a lot to unpack in the phrase, 'living life to the fullest' and that atheists tend to assume 'theism prevents one from....living life to the fullest.'
I, as an atheist, don't think theism prevents one from living life to the fullest that they can live their lives. I don't know that many atheists, so am not aware that that attitude...ie that believing in God prevents one from from living their life to the fullest is prevalent in the atheist community. Do you have any examples you can cite? I'm not questioning that you've seen this, but would like to see what someone is saying that gives you the impression they think that.
But when all is said and done, I'm not sure what that phrase 'live life to the fullest' means.
I think that sometimes it seems to me that a theist artificially burdens himself with things I think are unnecessary from any standpoint other than it happens to be something they believe God (which I don't think exists) might require/desire of them. But does it make their life less....'full?' Probably not, maybe to them their life would be less full without all those incantations, rituals and parades that their God belief causes them to do.
Also, I have seen people, theists, who have completely filled their lives with activities aimed at laudable goals. Even if I think the catalyst for those goals doesn't exist outside of in their mind, the goals themselves seem laudable and serve to make their life full(er) and the society around them generally better or at least doesn't do any harm. My brother was a perfect example of that. He believe strongly in the Christian God. He faithfully went to church, helped out in any way he could, selflessly helped people in need and tried to be a friend to everyone he encountered. He believed he was doing all that to honor and obey Jesus. Even though I personally don't think Jesus was a god or the son of God, I appreciated that my brother's beliefs made his life very full. He lived a full life up 'til he died last November. He imagined himself to be going to live with Jesus for eternity. I don't think that happened/s, but HIS life was fuller because he believed that.
And even if someone (like me) comes to somehow believe there IS a god of some sort, you know because of some unusual experience or because of ID, what then? Since I'm absolutely certain none of the Abrahamic religions are true, where would I turn? The reason I don't think they're true is because I don't believe the humans that espouse them/that came up with the doctrines knew what they were doing or had any special knowledge/inspiration. So that would pretty much rule out any other religion I'm aware of since I'm convinced the 'feeling' they have that theirs is the right one is not a trustworthy basis for determining reality. IOW, I don't believe the 'experts' the theologians/apologists/professors/preachers/etc. have any real knowledge...just perceptions and feelings and tons of 'book-learnin' from studying works/tomes/scripture/manuscripts that are written by people who didn't have any real knowledge other than...perceptions and feelings...ad infinitum. It's turtles all the way down.
Finally, based on the experiences you've described, I am not sure I would put what you believe into the category of theism. It sounds like some sort of super-naturalism, which I think could be separate/different/in place of/in addition to theism. I could well believe there is some sort of 'other' world existence that is possible, but see no reason to automatically assume that there is one or a handful or many 'super' beings in that existence. IOW, the supernatural world, if one wants to entertain that concept, may be only populated with beings like humans or serve as a conduit for human 'spirits' to travel through with no one/nothing actually 'dwelling' there or calling it their world.
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Post by mystery on Mar 24, 2022 15:48:47 GMT
rizdek. Oof, that's a long reply! I'll see what I can do... Re: atheists believing that theists don't live life to the fullest. I've talked to atheists who think that theists are inhibited because they're afraid of sinning against their God, so they don't do what they really want to do, and they think that atheism is liberating. And that's basically what I was referring to. Re: what does living life to the fullest mean? For me, it means following your dreams and passions and living with no regrets. I've done a lot of risky things in my life, things that have shocked a lot of people. I have a reputation for being fearless, because I'm not exactly risk averse. But, like I told you before, that's mostly because of my premonitions. I get a head's up before bad things happen, so I don't feel fear. And because of my spirituality, I don't even fear death. I really do believe that the only way we can face life fearlessly is to also face death fearlessly. Far too many people let their fear of death prevent them from being fully alive. Re: rituals and incantations. To tell you the truth, even during my Wiccan years, I wasn't big on ritual. Some people enjoy it, but it always made me feel a bit silly. It's just personal preference. Instead, I do trance work, without words or props, and just get straight to the point. It's found in many religions. Christians call it ecstasy, Buddhists call it piti (I think?), some occult paths call it gnosis, etc. And it's very fulfilling, like being at one with Divinity, although it usually leaves me feeling stoned for a couple hours afterward, and it gives me really vivid dreams. And I can definitely relate to your frustrations when trying to force yourself to believe in something that doesn't make any sense. I felt the same way when I was trying to be a Christian. I started reading the Bible as a last ditch effort to restore my faith, and I ended up so frustrated with it that I got really angry. I finally had to stop, and that was the official end of my Christian faith. Religion tends to be book learning, and spirituality is direct experience. I don't have enough faith in humans to tell me what is true. I have to experience it for myself. Re: am I a theist? I consider myself to be one, because I do believe in a higher power. I don't think it has to be anything like the Abrahamic god, though. I usually avoid trying to define It, because my views do shift over time. Generally speaking, I'm basically a panentheist, where Divinity is around us and within us, and also beyond. I find it to be a positive belief, because it makes me cherish the wonders of life all the more, and to always treat others with kindness and respect. Sometimes I look at all the hatred spewed in this country today, and I'm just horrified by how far we've strayed from the path. We're lost in the weeds at this point, and it's really no surprise that the world is in chaos. It's very sad.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 25, 2022 14:13:16 GMT
rizdek . Oof, that's a long reply! I'll see what I can do... Re: atheists believing that theists don't live life to the fullest. I've talked to atheists who think that theists are inhibited because they're afraid of sinning against their God, so they don't do what they really want to do, and they think that atheism is liberating. And that's basically what I was referring to. Re: what does living life to the fullest mean? For me, it means following your dreams and passions and living with no regrets. I've done a lot of risky things in my life, things that have shocked a lot of people. I have a reputation for being fearless, because I'm not exactly risk averse. But, like I told you before, that's mostly because of my premonitions. I get a head's up before bad things happen, so I don't feel fear. And because of my spirituality, I don't even fear death. I really do believe that the only way we can face life fearlessly is to also face death fearlessly. Far too many people let their fear of death prevent them from being fully alive. Re: rituals and incantations. To tell you the truth, even during my Wiccan years, I wasn't big on ritual. Some people enjoy it, but it always made me feel a bit silly. It's just personal preference. Instead, I do trance work, without words or props, and just get straight to the point. It's found in many religions. Christians call it ecstasy, Buddhists call it piti (I think?), some occult paths call it gnosis, etc. And it's very fulfilling, like being at one with Divinity, although it usually leaves me feeling stoned for a couple hours afterward, and it gives me really vivid dreams. And I can definitely relate to your frustrations when trying to force yourself to believe in something that doesn't make any sense. I felt the same way when I was trying to be a Christian. I started reading the Bible as a last ditch effort to restore my faith, and I ended up so frustrated with it that I got really angry. I finally had to stop, and that was the official end of my Christian faith. Religion tends to be book learning, and spirituality is direct experience. I don't have enough faith in humans to tell me what is true. I have to experience it for myself. Re: am I a theist? I consider myself to be one, because I do believe in a higher power. I don't think it has to be anything like the Abrahamic god, though. I usually avoid trying to define It, because my views do shift over time. Generally speaking, I'm basically a panentheist, where Divinity is around us and within us, and also beyond. I find it to be a positive belief, because it makes me cherish the wonders of life all the more, and to always treat others with kindness and respect. Sometimes I look at all the hatred spewed in this country today, and I'm just horrified by how far we've strayed from the path. We're lost in the weeds at this point, and it's really no surprise that the world is in chaos. It's very sad. I guess I have seen some atheists say that...ie that theists can't live life to the fullest...I can't remember the specifics, but yes, that attitude exists. The same thing applies the other way...ie theists think atheists cannot have a full life, and we both know that it's probably not true...ie that someone not believing there is a higher power somehow limits their life from what it could be or that someone really can't do what they truly want to do because....God. I am convinced that everyone will eventually find a want to justify what they really want to do despite their God belief or lack thereof. They'll either acknowledge they really don't want to do that thing they feel prohibited from doing or find a way to justify it and make it consistent with their particular God belief. And since no one can really challenge them with facts....facts that both agree on, there's nothing to keep them from fabricating that justification.
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Post by mystery on Mar 25, 2022 16:22:06 GMT
rizdek . Oof, that's a long reply! I'll see what I can do... Re: atheists believing that theists don't live life to the fullest. I've talked to atheists who think that theists are inhibited because they're afraid of sinning against their God, so they don't do what they really want to do, and they think that atheism is liberating. And that's basically what I was referring to. Re: what does living life to the fullest mean? For me, it means following your dreams and passions and living with no regrets. I've done a lot of risky things in my life, things that have shocked a lot of people. I have a reputation for being fearless, because I'm not exactly risk averse. But, like I told you before, that's mostly because of my premonitions. I get a head's up before bad things happen, so I don't feel fear. And because of my spirituality, I don't even fear death. I really do believe that the only way we can face life fearlessly is to also face death fearlessly. Far too many people let their fear of death prevent them from being fully alive. Re: rituals and incantations. To tell you the truth, even during my Wiccan years, I wasn't big on ritual. Some people enjoy it, but it always made me feel a bit silly. It's just personal preference. Instead, I do trance work, without words or props, and just get straight to the point. It's found in many religions. Christians call it ecstasy, Buddhists call it piti (I think?), some occult paths call it gnosis, etc. And it's very fulfilling, like being at one with Divinity, although it usually leaves me feeling stoned for a couple hours afterward, and it gives me really vivid dreams. And I can definitely relate to your frustrations when trying to force yourself to believe in something that doesn't make any sense. I felt the same way when I was trying to be a Christian. I started reading the Bible as a last ditch effort to restore my faith, and I ended up so frustrated with it that I got really angry. I finally had to stop, and that was the official end of my Christian faith. Religion tends to be book learning, and spirituality is direct experience. I don't have enough faith in humans to tell me what is true. I have to experience it for myself. Re: am I a theist? I consider myself to be one, because I do believe in a higher power. I don't think it has to be anything like the Abrahamic god, though. I usually avoid trying to define It, because my views do shift over time. Generally speaking, I'm basically a panentheist, where Divinity is around us and within us, and also beyond. I find it to be a positive belief, because it makes me cherish the wonders of life all the more, and to always treat others with kindness and respect. Sometimes I look at all the hatred spewed in this country today, and I'm just horrified by how far we've strayed from the path. We're lost in the weeds at this point, and it's really no surprise that the world is in chaos. It's very sad. I guess I have seen some atheists say that...ie that theists can't live life to the fullest...I can't remember the specifics, but yes, that attitude exists. The same thing applies the other way...ie theists think atheists cannot have a full life, and we both know that it's probably not true...ie that someone not believing there is a higher power somehow limits their life from what it could be or that someone really can't do what they truly want to do because....God. I am convinced that everyone will eventually find a want to justify what they really want to do despite their God belief or lack thereof. They'll either acknowledge they really don't want to do that thing they feel prohibited from doing or find a way to justify it and make it consistent with their particular God belief. And since no one can really challenge them with facts....facts that both agree on, there's nothing to keep them from fabricating that justification.
I'm sure you're right that people tend to justify their actions and do whatever they want. After all, Christians aren't exactly paragons of virtue these days. But honestly, I doubt I would have taken so many risks in life if I was a rational, non-woo atheist, especially with backpacking. I don't exactly go to the nice safe touristy places. I've gone wandering through the Middle East, tribal regions of Africa, and remote areas of South America and Asia, which is pretty dangerous for a solo female backpacker. Every morning, I'd see if I sensed any problems on the horizon, and if all was clear, then I'd go on my merry way without worries. If I was an atheist, I don't think I would have been nearly so brazen. And there were times when I sensed a problem. For instance, one time before I boarded a plane, I knew there was going to be some issue with the flight, but it would be okay, so I went ahead and boarded anyway. When we were descending for landing, we hit a flock of birds, and the engine caught on fire. But, I wasn't even rattled, because I was ready for it, and I knew that we'd be fine. Another time, I knew that there was a potential problem for that day, so I had to be extra careful. My taxi driver acted pleasant, but I knew he was going to try something. When we reached my accommodation, he just sat there, and I knew he was waiting for me to get out first, so he could drive off with my luggage in the trunk. I finally had to tell him to get out of the cab with me, which he did, reluctantly, and he was not very happy with me. A couple days later, another girl at my accommodation lost all of her luggage that exact way. I've heard tons of horror stories from other backpackers about being robbed or attacked or getting severely sick on the road. I would say that I've been very lucky, but I don't really think it's luck.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 25, 2022 16:39:42 GMT
I guess I have seen some atheists say that...ie that theists can't live life to the fullest...I can't remember the specifics, but yes, that attitude exists. The same thing applies the other way...ie theists think atheists cannot have a full life, and we both know that it's probably not true...ie that someone not believing there is a higher power somehow limits their life from what it could be or that someone really can't do what they truly want to do because....God. I am convinced that everyone will eventually find a want to justify what they really want to do despite their God belief or lack thereof. They'll either acknowledge they really don't want to do that thing they feel prohibited from doing or find a way to justify it and make it consistent with their particular God belief. And since no one can really challenge them with facts....facts that both agree on, there's nothing to keep them from fabricating that justification.
I'm sure you're right that people tend to justify their actions and do whatever they want. After all, Christians aren't exactly paragons of virtue these days. But honestly, I doubt I would have taken so many risks in life if I was a rational, non-woo atheist, especially with backpacking. I don't exactly go to the nice safe touristy places. I've gone wandering through the Middle East, tribal regions of Africa, and remote areas of South America and Asia, which is pretty dangerous for a solo female backpacker. Every morning, I'd see if I sensed any problems on the horizon, and if all was clear, then I'd go on my merry way without worries. If I was an atheist, I don't think I would have been nearly so brazen. And there were times when I sensed a problem. For instance, one time before I boarded a plane, I knew there was going to be some issue with the flight, but it would be okay, so I went ahead and boarded anyway. When we were descending for landing, we hit a flock of birds, and the engine caught on fire. But, I wasn't even rattled, because I was ready for it, and I knew that we'd be fine. Another time, I knew that there was a potential problem for that day, so I had to be extra careful. My taxi driver acted pleasant, but I knew he was going to try something. When we reached my accommodation, he just sat there, and I knew he was waiting for me to get out first, so he could drive off with my luggage in the trunk. I finally had to tell him to get out of the cab with me, which he did, reluctantly, and he was not very happy with me. A couple days later, another girl at my accommodation lost all of her luggage that exact way. I've heard tons of horror stories from other backpackers about being robbed or attacked or getting severely sick on the road. I would say that I've been very lucky, but I don't really think it's luck. But does that intuition simply reflect your personal ability or does it require a 'higher' power? I'd say YOU have a special gift, an intuition or a connection in/with/through the natural world. But that's just how I would view your experiences. IOW, I don't doubt for a moment that what you are experiencing is real, but AFAIK, it's part of nature. OTOH, if it helps to think it's due to a higher power, maybe that's part of how the 'gift' works.
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Post by mystery on Mar 25, 2022 17:35:34 GMT
I'm sure you're right that people tend to justify their actions and do whatever they want. After all, Christians aren't exactly paragons of virtue these days. But honestly, I doubt I would have taken so many risks in life if I was a rational, non-woo atheist, especially with backpacking. I don't exactly go to the nice safe touristy places. I've gone wandering through the Middle East, tribal regions of Africa, and remote areas of South America and Asia, which is pretty dangerous for a solo female backpacker. Every morning, I'd see if I sensed any problems on the horizon, and if all was clear, then I'd go on my merry way without worries. If I was an atheist, I don't think I would have been nearly so brazen. And there were times when I sensed a problem. For instance, one time before I boarded a plane, I knew there was going to be some issue with the flight, but it would be okay, so I went ahead and boarded anyway. When we were descending for landing, we hit a flock of birds, and the engine caught on fire. But, I wasn't even rattled, because I was ready for it, and I knew that we'd be fine. Another time, I knew that there was a potential problem for that day, so I had to be extra careful. My taxi driver acted pleasant, but I knew he was going to try something. When we reached my accommodation, he just sat there, and I knew he was waiting for me to get out first, so he could drive off with my luggage in the trunk. I finally had to tell him to get out of the cab with me, which he did, reluctantly, and he was not very happy with me. A couple days later, another girl at my accommodation lost all of her luggage that exact way. I've heard tons of horror stories from other backpackers about being robbed or attacked or getting severely sick on the road. I would say that I've been very lucky, but I don't really think it's luck. But does that intuition simply reflect your personal ability or does it require a 'higher' power? I'd say YOU have a special gift, an intuition or a connection in/with/through the natural world. But that's just how I would view your experiences. IOW, I don't doubt for a moment that what you are experiencing is real, but AFAIK, it's part of nature. OTOH, if it helps to think it's due to a higher power, maybe that's part of how the 'gift' works. But again, I'm a panentheist, so Nature and Divinity are pretty much one in the same. I obviously have a much broader definition of Divinity than you do. I suppose you could possibly even liken it to something like the Force on Star Wars, maybe? (Full disclosure: I have never actually watched the movies, so I could be wrong about that...). I reject atheism because I associate it with materialism, where nothing is more than what meets the eye. I clearly can't accept that, just due to my own experiences. I do believe in some higher consciousness, which is undoubtedly very different than our own. I do not believe in some anthropomorphized Divinity. That's usually just the human ego worshipping itself. Does belief in a higher power help me process the weirdness of my life? I suppose it might help keep me humble, rather than letting my ego get too out of control. That's really the major pitfall in spirituality. But I have other reasons, too. Back when I was an atheist, I challenged Divinity to give me a sign, and let's just say I got way more than what I bargained for. After that, I never challenged Divinity again. I don't know. I'm personally very comfortable walking two parallel paths. I'm comfortable with both science and spirituality. I'm comfortable walking the line between reason and intuition. And I'm comfortable acknowledging that there are things in life that I'll probably never understand or explain. In fact, I even prefer it that way. At least it keeps us curious.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 25, 2022 18:37:42 GMT
But does that intuition simply reflect your personal ability or does it require a 'higher' power? I'd say YOU have a special gift, an intuition or a connection in/with/through the natural world. But that's just how I would view your experiences. IOW, I don't doubt for a moment that what you are experiencing is real, but AFAIK, it's part of nature. OTOH, if it helps to think it's due to a higher power, maybe that's part of how the 'gift' works. But again, I'm a panentheist, so Nature and Divinity are pretty much one in the same. I obviously have a much broader definition of Divinity than you do. I suppose you could possibly even liken it to something like the Force on Star Wars, maybe? (Full disclosure: I have never actually watched the movies, so I could be wrong about that...). I reject atheism because I associate it with materialism, where nothing is more than what meets the eye. I clearly can't accept that, just due to my own experiences. I do believe in some higher consciousness, which is undoubtedly very different than our own. I do not believe in some anthropomorphized Divinity. That's usually just the human ego worshipping itself. Does belief in a higher power help me process the weirdness of my life? I suppose it might help keep me humble, rather than letting my ego get too out of control. That's really the major pitfall in spirituality. But I have other reasons, too. Back when I was an atheist, I challenged Divinity to give me a sign, and let's just say I got way more than what I bargained for. After that, I never challenged Divinity again. I don't know. I'm personally very comfortable walking two parallel paths. I'm comfortable with both science and spirituality. I'm comfortable walking the line between reason and intuition. And I'm comfortable acknowledging that there are things in life that I'll probably never understand or explain. In fact, I even prefer it that way. At least it keeps us curious. I suppose a lot of atheists are materialists, but it doesn't seem they need to be.
I feel I am a pretty firm atheist, but waver about on the issue of nature including things far above/beyond what we know or can even know/understand. But then my idea of what a god is is kind of narrow. Your experiences would be completely within my world view....well except for your 'challenging' divinity experience and even there...it would depend on what happened. I don't know. But I'm pretty open to a whole lot of things that could happen within my worldview...and would adjust it according to what I experienced.
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Post by mystery on Mar 25, 2022 21:37:44 GMT
But again, I'm a panentheist, so Nature and Divinity are pretty much one in the same. I obviously have a much broader definition of Divinity than you do. I suppose you could possibly even liken it to something like the Force on Star Wars, maybe? (Full disclosure: I have never actually watched the movies, so I could be wrong about that...). I reject atheism because I associate it with materialism, where nothing is more than what meets the eye. I clearly can't accept that, just due to my own experiences. I do believe in some higher consciousness, which is undoubtedly very different than our own. I do not believe in some anthropomorphized Divinity. That's usually just the human ego worshipping itself. Does belief in a higher power help me process the weirdness of my life? I suppose it might help keep me humble, rather than letting my ego get too out of control. That's really the major pitfall in spirituality. But I have other reasons, too. Back when I was an atheist, I challenged Divinity to give me a sign, and let's just say I got way more than what I bargained for. After that, I never challenged Divinity again. I don't know. I'm personally very comfortable walking two parallel paths. I'm comfortable with both science and spirituality. I'm comfortable walking the line between reason and intuition. And I'm comfortable acknowledging that there are things in life that I'll probably never understand or explain. In fact, I even prefer it that way. At least it keeps us curious. I suppose a lot of atheists are materialists, but it doesn't seem they need to be.
I feel I am a pretty firm atheist, but waver about on the issue of nature including things far above/beyond what we know or can even know/understand. But then my idea of what a god is is kind of narrow. Your experiences would be completely within my world view....well except for your 'challenging' divinity experience and even there...it would depend on what happened. I don't know. But I'm pretty open to a whole lot of things that could happen within my worldview...and would adjust it according to what I experienced. Would you mind if I ask you some questions about your views? Do you believe in some form of afterlife? Do you think things happen for a reason, or is everything meaningless? By what mechanism do you think things like premonitions can happen? Just curious. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, of course, but you are rather unusual for an atheist, I think. I find it interesting that you're a firm atheist and I'm a firm theist, and yet our views are still surprisingly similar. The distinction is not quite as stark as we tend to assume.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 26, 2022 1:41:58 GMT
I consider myself an atheist (agnostic - not possible to know) and I have had premonitions that I cannot explain. But I still think it is some sort of natural thing that not everyone has.
And, just FYI, I am not a materialist. I am Secular Humanist, and much of my time is spent volunteering for a non-profit group. I am able to lessen the suffering of some sentient beings, and I consider doing that as a kind of 'mission', and I use that word very loosely. It gives me a reason to keep on living.
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