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Post by Winter_King on May 18, 2022 14:31:52 GMT
It does feel that the Gospel authors were trying to find way of making Jesus being born in Bethlehem because that's where the Messiah is supposed to be born and they both came up with different ways of making that happen. Even in the Apocryphal Gospels, Our Lord Is Born in Bethlehem, & although St. John does not include the Nativity story in his Gospel, he does acknowledge that Bethlehem is where the Messiah is supposed to be Born (Gospel according to St. John, chapter 7, verse 42). He needs to be born in Bethlehem. Otherwise he wouldn't fit the Messianic prophecies. The point is that the Gospel writers that mention the nativity, don't tell the same story. One might argue that they actually provide different dates for the nativity. Luke mentions the census of Quirinius which took place after Herod's death.
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Post by clusium on May 18, 2022 14:39:44 GMT
Even in the Apocryphal Gospels, Our Lord Is Born in Bethlehem, & although St. John does not include the Nativity story in his Gospel, he does acknowledge that Bethlehem is where the Messiah is supposed to be Born (Gospel according to St. John, chapter 7, verse 42). He needs to be born in Bethlehem. Otherwise he wouldn't fit the Messianic prophecies. The point is that the Gospel writers that mention the nativity, don't tell the same story. One might argue that they actually provide different dates for the nativity. Luke mentions the census of Quirinius which took place after Herod's death. They leave out different details, but, the story is essentially the same. In regards to St. John mentioning that the Messiah is prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem: He does not include the Nativity story. Only the Prophecy regarding where the Messiah Is to Be Born. So, why include that Prophecy in his Gospel, if he knew that Christ Was Born elsewhere (especially since he himself ADMITS to picking & choosing what to tell his readers, when he was concluding writing his Gospel)?
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Post by Winter_King on May 18, 2022 14:55:43 GMT
He needs to be born in Bethlehem. Otherwise he wouldn't fit the Messianic prophecies. The point is that the Gospel writers that mention the nativity, don't tell the same story. One might argue that they actually provide different dates for the nativity. Luke mentions the census of Quirinius which took place after Herod's death. They leave out different details, but, the story is essentially the same. In regards to St. John mentioning that the Messiah is prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem: He does not include the Nativity story. Only the Prophecy regarding where the Messiah Is to Be Born. So, why include that Prophecy in his Gospel, if he knew that Christ Was Born elsewhere (especially since he himself ADMITS to picking & choosing what to tell his readers, when he was concluding writing his Gospel)? Kind of. In Matthew, Herod is actively trying to kill Jesus, killing many innocents. There is no record of such massacre outside the Gospel of Matthew. This isn't mentioned in Luke. Because this massacre, Jesus family flees to Egypt to escape Herod after Jospeh has a dream. In Luke, this doesn't happen. In fact, Jesus is circumcised as any Jewish boy would and then later presented at the Temple. So Luke doesn't even imply Jesus being in danger, so no need to flee. This is a contradiction IMO.
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Post by clusium on May 18, 2022 17:15:37 GMT
They leave out different details, but, the story is essentially the same. In regards to St. John mentioning that the Messiah is prophesied to be Born in Bethlehem: He does not include the Nativity story. Only the Prophecy regarding where the Messiah Is to Be Born. So, why include that Prophecy in his Gospel, if he knew that Christ Was Born elsewhere (especially since he himself ADMITS to picking & choosing what to tell his readers, when he was concluding writing his Gospel)? Kind of. In Matthew, Herod is actively trying to kill Jesus, killing many innocents. There is no record of such massacre outside the Gospel of Matthew. This isn't mentioned in Luke. Because this massacre, Jesus family flees to Egypt to escape Herod after Jospeh has a dream. In Luke, this doesn't happen. In fact, Jesus is circumcised as any Jewish boy would and then later presented at the Temple. So Luke doesn't even imply Jesus being in danger, so no need to flee. This is a contradiction IMO. Herod the Great is mentioned though, in St. Luke's Nativity story (St. Luke chapter 1, verse 5).
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Post by Sarge on May 18, 2022 19:46:47 GMT
The NT is a clusterfuck of narratives and a lot of the stories we all know were invented to smooth over the inconsistencies. Jesus was a regular dude with brothers, sisters, mom and dad, and went off and started a cult with a whopping dozen followers. If it hadn't been for Paul creating the Church and bringing gentiles in, Jesus would be forgotten or another obscure cult leader like John the Baptist.
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Post by clusium on May 18, 2022 20:17:20 GMT
The NT is a clusterfuck of narratives and a lot of the stories we all know were invented to smooth over the inconsistencies. Jesus was a regular dude with brothers, sisters, mom and dad, and went off and started a cult with a whopping dozen followers. If it hadn't been for Paul creating the Church and bringing gentiles in, Jesus would be forgotten or another obscure cult leader like John the Baptist. Not only is St. John the Baptist a highly venerated Saint in Christianity, but, there is also a Middle Eastern religion that is centred upon him, much in the same way that Islam is on Muhammad, & Zoroastrianism is on Zarathustra. Mandaeism
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Post by Sarge on May 18, 2022 23:51:49 GMT
The NT is a clusterfuck of narratives and a lot of the stories we all know were invented to smooth over the inconsistencies. Jesus was a regular dude with brothers, sisters, mom and dad, and went off and started a cult with a whopping dozen followers. If it hadn't been for Paul creating the Church and bringing gentiles in, Jesus would be forgotten or another obscure cult leader like John the Baptist. Not only is St. John the Baptist a highly venerated Saint in Christianity, but, there is also a Middle Eastern religion that is centred upon him, much in the same way that Islam is on Muhammad, & Zoroastrianism is on Zarathustra. Mandaeism Yeah, what other obscure cult did you think I meant? John the Baptist had a following before Jesus, it was Christianity that tied them together.
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Post by clusium on May 19, 2022 3:13:27 GMT
Not only is St. John the Baptist a highly venerated Saint in Christianity, but, there is also a Middle Eastern religion that is centred upon him, much in the same way that Islam is on Muhammad, & Zoroastrianism is on Zarathustra. MandaeismYeah, what other obscure cult did you think I meant? John the Baptist had a following before Jesus, it was Christianity that tied them together. Yes, but, the Mandaeans still exist. They did not die out, like, the Manichaeans for example.
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Post by Sarge on May 19, 2022 4:59:32 GMT
Yeah, what other obscure cult did you think I meant? John the Baptist had a following before Jesus, it was Christianity that tied them together. Yes, but, the Mandaeans still exist. They did not die out, like, the Manichaeans for example. They do still exist but I would consider them obscure.
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Post by clusium on May 19, 2022 5:11:29 GMT
Yes, but, the Mandaeans still exist. They did not die out, like, the Manichaeans for example. They do still exist but I would consider them obscure. True. They are. But, so are Zoroastrians, Jains, Bon, etc...
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Post by Winter_King on May 19, 2022 9:29:49 GMT
Kind of. In Matthew, Herod is actively trying to kill Jesus, killing many innocents. There is no record of such massacre outside the Gospel of Matthew. This isn't mentioned in Luke. Because this massacre, Jesus family flees to Egypt to escape Herod after Jospeh has a dream. In Luke, this doesn't happen. In fact, Jesus is circumcised as any Jewish boy would and then later presented at the Temple. So Luke doesn't even imply Jesus being in danger, so no need to flee. This is a contradiction IMO. Herod the Great is mentioned though, in St. Luke's Nativity story (St. Luke chapter 1, verse 5). I meant the massacre of the innocents. It's only in Matthew.
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Post by clusium on May 19, 2022 14:29:56 GMT
Herod the Great is mentioned though, in St. Luke's Nativity story (St. Luke chapter 1, verse 5). I meant the massacre of the innocents. It's only in Matthew. In the BIBLE, it is only in St. Matthew. However, it is also mentioned in the Nativity story in the Apocryphal writings as well. Protoevangelium Of St. James
Acts of Sts. Paul & Thecla
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