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Post by mikef6 on May 22, 2022 15:17:59 GMT
“The Bible is a human product: it tells us how our religious ancestors saw things, not how God sees things.” – Marcus J. Borg, [Borg] was among the most widely known and influential voices in Liberal Christianity. As a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, Borg was a major figure in historical Jesus scholarship. (Wikipedia)
And, yeah, if you don’t believe in God and/or believe that the Bible is a cruel and harmful book, that’s fine. That is what I believe, too. It just means that the “how could a loving God permit this” - as with the killing of all the men, women, children, and animals in a city in the Book of Joshua - questions are irrelevant. It is not “God,” it is ancient world religious writers who believed that about their God.
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Post by onethreetwo on May 22, 2022 15:35:49 GMT
The Bible is not a human product, and it's not our place to question God's reasons. We can, but it's not our place.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on May 22, 2022 16:00:07 GMT
The Bible is not a human product, and it's not our place to question God's reasons. We can, but it's not our place. The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans.
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Post by drystyx on May 22, 2022 19:19:33 GMT
There are at least six possibilities I can think of without even trying to think about it.
1. God is evil
2. It was ordered by a pretender God (Satan) and wasn't the command of the good God
3. God was a construct who never really existed, and humans made the decision
4. The people who were wiped out weren't really "spirits", of real people, but more like mechanical constructs with no souls that performed evil
5. The people being wiped out were horribly demonic abusers of authority, gifts, power, talents, and were so wicked that it wasn't even questionable at the time. In fact, those people didn't even have a "side" to their acts. They just bludgeoned others for pure fun.
6. The people being wiped out by God were actually demonic beings, angels who abused their gifts (instead of robotic beings)
Lost of other possiblities.
What is most likely? Since the story tellers told these stories in a savage time, not quite prehistoric, but a bit prehistoric, they assumed facts not in evidence today. If we didn't have information sweeping the world today, but instead lived in a savage world, a writer today might state that Hank
Aaron was a great hitter who could handle a bat better than anyone else from Mobile Alabama, and if we had the same savage record keeping as we did 4000 or 5000 years ago, we might leave it at that, thinking that everyone knew what we were talking about, but what if Baseball didn't exist in a few hundred years, and was totally forgotten, replaced by whatever the rumor mill said it used to be, by whatever jokes were told about it? And Mobile and Alabama both changed names. People might think Hank Aaron was hitting people and that he trained bats to fly around and catch prey for him.
Being a bit of a Gnostic dualist, and that the fall of man created a situation where the true good God was cloaked, and our spirits all became trapped in a sort of box by the Devil, I'm inclined to believe number 2, but I don't know for sure. After all, after the fall of man, the character who punished Adam and Eve didn't behave in a way a good God would behave, punishing those who were duped more than the duper. That would be like putting people in jail for being swindled. And since Adam and Eve "fell from the grace of the garden", how would they even recognize the good God? All this is the most logical analysis when the story of Jesus is one of someone who had to abide by the evil rules of the "accuser" (Devil) in order to placate the Devil's one sided rigged system of rules, to salvage human spirits.
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Post by onethreetwo on May 22, 2022 20:31:06 GMT
The Bible is not a human product, and it's not our place to question God's reasons. We can, but it's not our place. The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness |
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Post by mikef6 on May 23, 2022 0:20:40 GMT
The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Sorry, I know you try hard but any writing announcing itself as scripture is automatically suspect.
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Post by Sarge on May 23, 2022 6:40:20 GMT
When preachers talked about god destroying cities, in the back of my mind I understood it to be god correcting his own mistakes at the expense of people. The Bible as much as admits that about the flood.
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on May 23, 2022 7:00:48 GMT
The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness According to Christians, the Bible was written by humans under God's inspiration. They do not believe that it was directly written by God with no interference like Muslims believe that the Koran was. |
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Post by Feologild Oakes on May 23, 2022 8:46:41 GMT
The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Humans wrote that.
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Post by mikef6 on May 23, 2022 16:45:46 GMT
The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Note that of the four benefits of scripture listed, none of them are history or science.
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Post by Isapop on May 23, 2022 22:53:35 GMT
“The Bible is a human product: it tells us how our religious ancestors saw things, not how God sees things.” – Marcus J. Borg, [Borg] was among the most widely known and influential voices in Liberal Christianity. As a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, Borg was a major figure in historical Jesus scholarship. (Wikipedia)And, yeah, if you don’t believe in God and/or believe that the Bible is a cruel and harmful book, that’s fine. That is what I believe, too. It just means that the “how could a loving God permit this” - as with the killing of all the men, women, children, and animals in a city in the Book of Joshua - questions are irrelevant. It is not “God,” it is ancient world religious writers who believed that about their God. But since a very large number of people believe the Bible DOES tell us how God sees things, that question “How could a loving God permit this” will always have relevance.
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Post by mikef6 on May 24, 2022 0:49:42 GMT
“The Bible is a human product: it tells us how our religious ancestors saw things, not how God sees things.” – Marcus J. Borg, [Borg] was among the most widely known and influential voices in Liberal Christianity. As a fellow of the Jesus Seminar, Borg was a major figure in historical Jesus scholarship. (Wikipedia)And, yeah, if you don’t believe in God and/or believe that the Bible is a cruel and harmful book, that’s fine. That is what I believe, too. It just means that the “how could a loving God permit this” - as with the killing of all the men, women, children, and animals in a city in the Book of Joshua - questions are irrelevant. It is not “God,” it is ancient world religious writers who believed that about their God. But since a very large number of people believe the Bible DOES tell us how God sees things, that question “How could a loving God permit this” will always have relevance. Yes, it will have relevance for some people but it is still irrelevant, if you know what I mean. They struggle with a question that doesn't matter.
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Post by Isapop on May 24, 2022 1:04:10 GMT
But since a very large number of people believe the Bible DOES tell us how God sees things, that question “How could a loving God permit this” will always have relevance. Yes, it will have relevance for some people but it is still irrelevant, if you know what I mean. They struggle with a question that doesn't matter. Then, for the same reason (God doesn't exist), any question at all regarding what God thinks becomes an irrelevant question. No need to single out any one question.
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Post by rizdek on May 29, 2022 17:07:46 GMT
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Sorry, I know you try hard but any writing announcing itself as scripture is automatically suspect. I'm telling the truth....just ask me. And if you want corroboration, ask me again tomorrow.
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Post by rizdek on May 29, 2022 17:10:51 GMT
There are at least six possibilities I can think of without even trying to think about it. 1. God is evil 2. It was ordered by a pretender God (Satan) and wasn't the command of the good God 3. God was a construct who never really existed, and humans made the decision 4. The people who were wiped out weren't really "spirits", of real people, but more like mechanical constructs with no souls that performed evil 5. The people being wiped out were horribly demonic abusers of authority, gifts, power, talents, and were so wicked that it wasn't even questionable at the time. In fact, those people didn't even have a "side" to their acts. They just bludgeoned others for pure fun. 6. The people being wiped out by God were actually demonic beings, angels who abused their gifts (instead of robotic beings) Lost of other possiblities. What is most likely? Since the story tellers told these stories in a savage time, not quite prehistoric, but a bit prehistoric, they assumed facts not in evidence today. If we didn't have information sweeping the world today, but instead lived in a savage world, a writer today might state that Hank Aaron was a great hitter who could handle a bat better than anyone else from Mobile Alabama, and if we had the same savage record keeping as we did 4000 or 5000 years ago, we might leave it at that, thinking that everyone knew what we were talking about, but what if Baseball didn't exist in a few hundred years, and was totally forgotten, replaced by whatever the rumor mill said it used to be, by whatever jokes were told about it? And Mobile and Alabama both changed names. People might think Hank Aaron was hitting people and that he trained bats to fly around and catch prey for him. Being a bit of a Gnostic dualist, and that the fall of man created a situation where the true good God was cloaked, and our spirits all became trapped in a sort of box by the Devil, I'm inclined to believe number 2, but I don't know for sure. After all, after the fall of man, the character who punished Adam and Eve didn't behave in a way a good God would behave, punishing those who were duped more than the duper. That would be like putting people in jail for being swindled. And since Adam and Eve "fell from the grace of the garden", how would they even recognize the good God? All this is the most logical analysis when the story of Jesus is one of someone who had to abide by the evil rules of the "accuser" (Devil) in order to placate the Devil's one sided rigged system of rules, to salvage human spirits. God may or may not exist and the people decided to do it on their own...essentially #3
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jun 13, 2022 20:38:50 GMT
Yes, it will have relevance for some people but it is still irrelevant, if you know what I mean. They struggle with a question that doesn't matter. Then, for the same reason (God doesn't exist), any question at all regarding what God thinks becomes an irrelevant question. No need to single out any one question. ^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^
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Post by rizdek on Jun 16, 2022 17:52:55 GMT
The Bible is not a human product, and it's not our place to question God's reasons. We can, but it's not our place. But everyone...even the most dedicated Christian, has to apply their own perception of morality to what they THINK might be God's word or what someone CLAIMS is 'of God.' Certainly if some preacher gets up and starts spouting HIS version of God's law, anyone listening has to evaluate whether they agree with that guy. Even if YOU think you're getting messages directly from God...you have to match that message with what YOU think is right to determine if it is truly form God and not just your imagination. Best I can tell most Christians question at least part of what the Bible says. For example, in Deuteronomy there is the mandate that if a man has sex with a married woman not his wife, both are to be killed and if a man has sex with a woman betrothed to someone else in the city, both are to be killed. Then in another place in Deuteronomy 21 it tells parents if they have a disobedient son who won't listen to them, they are to take him to the city elders and the men of the city will stone the son to death. Now...I know for a fact that no sane Christian takes those admonitions literally today...in fact they would be illegal in most civilized nations. So not only do Christians evaluate God's word, they even write laws that contradict God's word.
Even as you make the statement, "God is good" and mean it more than empty rhetoric...ie think it is a true statement, you are personally evaluating God and the mandates you think are his and agreeing that they do, indeed, reflect the correct morality. So despite what you might think, you do indeed have a concept and definition of morality independent of God.
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 16, 2022 22:15:10 GMT
The bible was written by humans, so yes humans can question it as it was written by humans. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Do you know what a begging the question fallacy is? If not, you should really look that up!
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Post by progressiveelement on Jul 4, 2022 10:38:25 GMT
Haven't you ever played SimCity?
Sometimes, just letting Godzilla loose is good to liven things up a bit.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 4, 2022 20:30:15 GMT
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Sorry, I know you try hard but any writing announcing itself as scripture is automatically suspect. I’m pretty sure that guy was just trolling you, lol 😂
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