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Post by mikef6 on Jun 1, 2022 22:13:35 GMT
I would add "I need to be punished"  |
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Post by amyghost on Jun 2, 2022 0:47:03 GMT
Quite possibly one of the most destructive things religion teaches (and even Eastern religions are to some extent guilty of this) is the notion that this material world is merely a transitory nothing that the believer is wise to turn his back on as much as possible. Transitory this world is, yes, but the idea that because of that it should be of minimal concern or care has led to attitudes that are profoundly ruinous to the planet and all the things it contains.
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Post by clusium on Jun 2, 2022 18:48:48 GMT
I would add "I need to be punished" That's right. These are to unlearn. How better to become more & more egotistical & narcissistic without all of these?
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Post by amyghost on Jun 2, 2022 23:35:02 GMT
I would add "I need to be punished" That's right. These are to unlearn. How better to become more & more egotistical & narcissistic without all of these? But why should the shedding of neurotic self-hatred be the basis for automatically becoming an egotist or narcissist? And why should one have to believe in any type of externalized god to be a decent human being?
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Post by clusium on Jun 2, 2022 23:50:52 GMT
That's right. These are to unlearn. How better to become more & more egotistical & narcissistic without all of these? But why should the shedding of neurotic self-hatred be the basis for automatically becoming an egotist or narcissist? And why should one have to believe in any type of externalized god to be a decent human being? Who says that acknowledging one's own faults is being neurotic & self-hating? We acknowledge the Supreme Being as Lord and Creator of the entire universe, Who Intended for it to be perfect. So, we rely on His Help to Strengthen us. All religions have particular goals to help us as we live out our lives in the world. In Christianity, it is Salvation; in Buddhism, it is enlightenment; in Islam, it is submission. Even atheists have their own certain philosophies and/or ideologies to help people better themselves.
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Post by drystyx on Jun 3, 2022 1:37:27 GMT
Quite possibly one of the most destructive things that THEISM HATERS teaches is the notion that this material world is NOT merely a transitory nothing, that the HATER OF HUMANITY is wise to turn his back on HUMANITY as much as possible. The idea that because of that THE ETERNAL SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST should be of minimal concern or care has led to attitudes that are profoundly ruinous to the planet and all the things it contains. Fixed it. If you could bottle your hate and sell it, you'd be a trillionaire.
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Post by mystery on Jun 3, 2022 2:59:51 GMT
Quite possibly one of the most destructive things religion teaches (and even Eastern religions are to some extent guilty of this) is the notion that this material world is merely a transitory nothing that the believer is wise to turn his back on as much as possible. Transitory this world is, yes, but the idea that because of that it should be of minimal concern or care has led to attitudes that are profoundly ruinous to the planet and all the things it contains. One aspect of religion that seems to be almost universal is that, once you write down a good idea, it will quickly be twisted and corrupted by others. I think when most religions speak of the transitory nature of this world, the intent is for people to live simply and avoid becoming overly attached to material things that are not meant to last. Instead, that idea is corrupted into viewing the material world as worthless and meaningless, and feeling entitled to destroy it for selfish purposes. Some pagan traditions have different levels of teaching for different levels of understanding, which actually kind of makes sense. Spiritual teachings become corrupted far more easily when people are exposed ideas that they lack the knowledge and wisdom to understand. As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... |
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Post by amyghost on Jun 4, 2022 4:54:25 GMT
But why should the shedding of neurotic self-hatred be the basis for automatically becoming an egotist or narcissist? And why should one have to believe in any type of externalized god to be a decent human being? Who says that acknowledging one's own faults is being neurotic & self-hating? We acknowledge the Supreme Being as Lord and Creator of the entire universe, Who Intended for it to be perfect. So, we rely on His Help to Strengthen us. All religions have particular goals to help us as we live out our lives in the world. In Christianity, it is Salvation; in Buddhism, it is enlightenment; in Islam, it is submission. Even atheists have their own certain philosophies and/or ideologies to help people better themselves. It's neurotic and self-hating to believe you're an essentially worthless being whose existence came about only because of 'original sin', thus making you abhorrent in God's eyes unless you're saved by his 'grace'; you can have no value or meaning on your own, only that which 'God' chooses to grant you. And I get especially weary of hearing that whole "The Creator intended the world to be perfect" (the unspoken codicil being that it was perfect until we lousy, fallible worms came along and screwed it up). A 'perfect' being can't create imperfection, so if God intended the world to be perfect, then the only reason it isn't is because he/she/it was incapable of creating that. As the ancient Greeks wisely observed, if God is all good, then he cannot be all-powerful, and if he is all-powerful he cannot be all good.
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Post by amyghost on Jun 4, 2022 4:59:22 GMT
Quite possibly one of the most destructive things that THEISM HATERS teaches is the notion that this material world is NOT merely a transitory nothing, that the HATER OF HUMANITY is wise to turn his back on HUMANITY as much as possible. The idea that because of that THE ETERNAL SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST should be of minimal concern or care has led to attitudes that are profoundly ruinous to the planet and all the things it contains. Fixed it. If you could bottle your hate and sell it, you'd be a trillionaire. Why do you despise the material world so much? Because your life in it is not going exactly to your liking perhaps? Otherwise, I can't say your 'fix' made much sense grammatically or thematically.
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Post by amyghost on Jun 4, 2022 5:02:48 GMT
Quite possibly one of the most destructive things religion teaches (and even Eastern religions are to some extent guilty of this) is the notion that this material world is merely a transitory nothing that the believer is wise to turn his back on as much as possible. Transitory this world is, yes, but the idea that because of that it should be of minimal concern or care has led to attitudes that are profoundly ruinous to the planet and all the things it contains. One aspect of religion that seems to be almost universal is that, once you write down a good idea, it will quickly be twisted and corrupted by others. I think when most religions speak of the transitory nature of this world, the intent is for people to live simply and avoid becoming overly attached to material things that are not meant to last. Instead, that idea is corrupted into viewing the material world as worthless and meaningless, and feeling entitled to destroy it for selfish purposes. Some pagan traditions have different levels of teaching for different levels of understanding, which actually kind of makes sense. Spiritual teachings become corrupted far more easily when people are exposed ideas that they lack the knowledge and wisdom to understand. As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... In some cases, your initial contention is correct, but there's no escaping the fact that some of these 'teachers' (Jesus for one), quite explicitly state that the only path to salvation is to despise and turn away from all the things of the world and the flesh. That, unfortunately, is not a later corruption of his teaching, it's the essential point and mainstay of it.
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Post by clusium on Jun 4, 2022 5:25:41 GMT
Who says that acknowledging one's own faults is being neurotic & self-hating? We acknowledge the Supreme Being as Lord and Creator of the entire universe, Who Intended for it to be perfect. So, we rely on His Help to Strengthen us. All religions have particular goals to help us as we live out our lives in the world. In Christianity, it is Salvation; in Buddhism, it is enlightenment; in Islam, it is submission. Even atheists have their own certain philosophies and/or ideologies to help people better themselves. It's neurotic and self-hating to believe you're an essentially worthless being whose existence came about only because of 'original sin', thus making you abhorrent in God's eyes unless you're saved by his 'grace'; you can have no value or meaning on your own, only that which 'God' chooses to grant you. And I get especially weary of hearing that whole "The Creator intended the world to be perfect" (the unspoken codicil being that it was perfect until we lousy, fallible worms came along and screwed it up). A 'perfect' being can't create imperfection, so if God intended the world to be perfect, then the only reason it isn't is because he/she/it was incapable of creating that. As the ancient Greeks wisely observed, if God is all good, then he cannot be all-powerful, and if he is all-powerful he cannot be all good. Only if you obsess over it, & one does not have to be religious or spiritual to think that way. Of course the Heavenly Father Did not Create imperfection. However, He Did Allow for free will, for all that exists to either be with Him or reject Him. When those that rejected Him, then imperfection came.
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Post by Sarge on Jun 4, 2022 22:30:31 GMT
I would add "I need to be punished" Explains my wife's neurotic thoughts.
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Post by clusium on Jun 4, 2022 23:30:03 GMT
I would add "I need to be punished" Explains my wife's neurotic thoughts. Is your wife religious?
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Post by Sarge on Jun 4, 2022 23:39:19 GMT
Explains my wife's neurotic thoughts. Is your wife religious? Catholic.
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Post by clusium on Jun 5, 2022 0:09:42 GMT
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Post by amyghost on Jun 5, 2022 11:34:32 GMT
It's neurotic and self-hating to believe you're an essentially worthless being whose existence came about only because of 'original sin', thus making you abhorrent in God's eyes unless you're saved by his 'grace'; you can have no value or meaning on your own, only that which 'God' chooses to grant you. And I get especially weary of hearing that whole "The Creator intended the world to be perfect" (the unspoken codicil being that it was perfect until we lousy, fallible worms came along and screwed it up). A 'perfect' being can't create imperfection, so if God intended the world to be perfect, then the only reason it isn't is because he/she/it was incapable of creating that. As the ancient Greeks wisely observed, if God is all good, then he cannot be all-powerful, and if he is all-powerful he cannot be all good. Only if you obsess over it, & one does not have to be religious or spiritual to think that way. Of course the Heavenly Father Did not Create imperfection. However, He Did Allow for free will, for all that exists to either be with Him or reject Him. When those that rejected Him, then imperfection came. "Free Will', used in the classic Xtian sense, is yet another dodge. God made us perfect, but our free will destroyed that, since God is obviously not so all-powerful as to be capable of overriding that free will (which, BTW, he gave us in the first place; and being omniscient must have easily forseen what it would lead to). Except, that is, when it suits him to--which is frequently. And Jesus clearly expects, nay, demands that the believer obsess over the biblical program for redemption through rejection of worldly life. In fact, the 'salvation plan' can't work if it isn't implanted into the believer's mind in such a manner as to guide his every conscious (and ideally eventually sub-and unconscious) thought and action at every moment of his existence. That Jesus' extremely hard and demanding requirements for 'abiding even as he' in order to qualify for eternal salvation have, over millenia, been watered down into the marshmallowy Sunday-school interpretations of current pop Xtianity, in order not to drive away all but the most fervent, in no way obviates the rigors of his teachings as they exist in their original and un-watered down forms.
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Post by clusium on Jun 5, 2022 12:06:47 GMT
Only if you obsess over it, & one does not have to be religious or spiritual to think that way. Of course the Heavenly Father Did not Create imperfection. However, He Did Allow for free will, for all that exists to either be with Him or reject Him. When those that rejected Him, then imperfection came. "Free Will', used in the classic Xtian sense, is yet another dodge. God made us perfect, but our free will destroyed that, since God is obviously not so all-powerful as to be capable of overriding that free will (which, BTW, he gave us in the first place; and being omniscient must have easily forseen what it would lead to). Except, that is, when it suits him to--which is frequently. And Jesus clearly expects, nay, demands that the believer obsess over the biblical program for redemption through rejection of worldly life. In fact, the 'salvation plan' can't work if it isn't implanted into the believer's mind in such a manner as to guide his every conscious (and ideally eventually sub-and unconscious) thought and action at every moment of his existence. That Jesus' extremely hard and demanding requirements for 'abiding even as he' in order to qualify for eternal salvation have, over millennia, been watered down into the marshmallowy Sunday-school interpretations of current pop Xtianity, in order not to drive away all but the most fervent, in no way obviates the rigors of his teachings as they exist in their original and un-watered down forms. If Our Heavenly Father Did not Give us free will, we would be nothing more than robots. The Buddha also expected & demanded his followers to give up on the worldly life too. Actually, I think the majority of religious founders do. The material life & the spiritual life are often at odds with one another.
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Post by amyghost on Jun 5, 2022 15:43:01 GMT
"Free Will', used in the classic Xtian sense, is yet another dodge. God made us perfect, but our free will destroyed that, since God is obviously not so all-powerful as to be capable of overriding that free will (which, BTW, he gave us in the first place; and being omniscient must have easily forseen what it would lead to). Except, that is, when it suits him to--which is frequently. And Jesus clearly expects, nay, demands that the believer obsess over the biblical program for redemption through rejection of worldly life. In fact, the 'salvation plan' can't work if it isn't implanted into the believer's mind in such a manner as to guide his every conscious (and ideally eventually sub-and unconscious) thought and action at every moment of his existence. That Jesus' extremely hard and demanding requirements for 'abiding even as he' in order to qualify for eternal salvation have, over millennia, been watered down into the marshmallowy Sunday-school interpretations of current pop Xtianity, in order not to drive away all but the most fervent, in no way obviates the rigors of his teachings as they exist in their original and un-watered down forms. . The Buddha also expected & demanded his followers to give up on the worldly life too. Actually, I think the majority of religious founders do. The material life & the spiritual life are often at odds with one another. It also nicely exculpates him from any accountability as per those doings back in the garden. "Hey, I gave 'em free will. Wasn't my problem if they had the knowledge level of infants and didn't know how to use it. They broke it, they bought it. Not my fault." So let's see: The Creator allegedly makes this big, incredibly complex, richly diverse material world--and proceeds to populate it with creatures whom he fully equips with all the necessary apparatus to be able to the utmost embrace and enjoy all that fantastic worldliness. He then follows this up by sending along an emissary who brings the message that all this beautiful, material, product of the Creator, is, on the Creator's express orders, to be despised, shunned and totally rejected; or be prepared to pay a horrible and eternal price for failure to so do. Make any sense at all? Well, to the god-steeped mind it certainly does--or more likely that mind had it drilled out of them very thoroughly early on not to think about or question that point...or to even be aware that such a conundrum exists.
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Post by Isapop on Jun 5, 2022 22:49:26 GMT
Of course the Heavenly Father Did not Create imperfection. However, He Did Allow for free will, for all that exists to either be with Him or reject Him. When those that rejected Him, then imperfection came. And there it is - the defective core of Christianity, whether Catholic, Protestant, or some smaller sect. Adam and Eve passed on their sin to their offspring. Every person ever born in the world (other than Christ) was born sinful and destined to die. (Romans 5:12) That's why a redeemer was necessary. But believing this means accepting a completely irrational decision by God - that sin shall be a heritable trait. Some human traits are heritable, like eye color. Others are not, like your memories. God could have chosen to make sin non-heritable. God could have chosen to offer Adam & Eve's children the same deal He offered A&E: "Obey me and live, disobey and die. When using your free will don't make the mistake your parents made." But nope. God decided that even though sin was in an action that A&E did, punishment shall not be confined to the guilty. Sin and its penalty should and shall be passed on to the countless generations of children not yet conceived. This utterly unjust and irrational scheme attributed to the Bible's God is one reason that Christianity does not deserve to be believed.
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Post by drystyx on Jun 6, 2022 1:26:35 GMT
If Our Heavenly Father Did not Give us free will, we would be nothing more than robots. The Buddha also expected & demanded his followers to give up on the worldly life too. Actually, I think the majority of religious founders do. The material life & the spiritual life are often at odds with one another. It also nicely exculpates him from any accountability as per those doings back in the garden. "Hey, I gave 'em free will. Wasn't my problem if they had the knowledge level of infants and didn't know how to use it. They broke it, they bought it. Not my fault." So let's see: The Creator allegedly makes this big, incredibly complex, richly diverse material world--and proceeds to populate it with creatures whom he fully equips with all the necessary apparatus to be able to the utmost embrace and enjoy all that fantastic worldliness. He then follows this up by sending along an emissary who brings the message that all this beautiful, material, product of the Creator, is, on the Creator's express orders, to be despised, shunned and totally rejected; or be prepared to pay a horrible and eternal price for failure to so do. Make any sense at all? Well, to the god-steeped mind it certainly does--or more likely that mind had it drilled out of them very thoroughly early on not to think about or question that point...or to even be aware that such a conundrum exists. Amazing. You whine about spiritual existence and claim worldly existence is superior, but if you tell me you can even leap to Mars, I'll know you're a liar. You can't leap to Mars. You can't even leap to the top of a mountain on Earth from the base of the mountain. Yet Earth is a small portion of this star system, of which NASA claims there are about 3200 star systems in the Milky Way alone (just stars with planets, not even counting stars with no such satellites), and there are over a billion galaxies in the Universe. And you claim worldly existence is superior? You want to claim this existence as your life? You're beyond insane. You're such a sheep that it's incredible. All your whining, and then you pretend to be superior. What are you superior to? A worm? Big deal. And a note along those lines. You have to do a lot of crying and whining if you think this existence is so awesome and worth every second. Your disappointments must reach peaks of suicidal thoughts. You cry each time you find you can't jump over a building. You cry each time you can't lift a mountain. You just said all of this when you claimed this was such a "fantastic worldliness". Meanwhile, those of us who accept this isn't a "fantastic worldliness" are never disappointed, and we can enjoy even the smallest of things. You obviously can't do that. It's impossible for you to enjoy those little things if you're telling the truth about this being such a "fantastic worldliness", and claim this as your life. Some people just can't attain that level of retard.
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