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Post by thebayharborbutcher on May 30, 2023 3:54:44 GMT
You know what's worse than being swept? Battling back from 0-3 only to get blown the fuck out in game 7 in your own building. The upside? If we barely lose this game, ownership may not make major changes. But after this embarrassing display, you have to believe they're ready to do something drastic. This core can't win, it's been established. Tatum and Brown are big game chokers, the role players can only bail them out so many times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Boston this offseason. One of those 2 has got to be traded I would think. I still think both Tatum and Brown are 2 of the best players currently in the NBA. I think the biggest reason one might be dealt has more to do with salary cap than anything else.
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Post by thebayharborbutcher on May 30, 2023 4:01:15 GMT
I must say this year’s Celtics may be the oddest team in playoffs history. After that dramatic win in Miami they came out fizzled from the start and have played flat and insipid ever since. 5 minutes to go and they’re down by 20 in front of the hometown crowd in a playoff game that had more excitement built around than any in the past 10 - maybe 20 - years. They are quite the puzzling team to be sure! You know what's worse than being swept? Battling back from 0-3 only to get blown the fuck out in game 7 in your own building. The upside? If we barely lose this game, ownership may not make major changes. But after this embarrassing display, you have to believe they're ready to do something drastic. This core can't win, it's been established. Tatum and Brown are big game chokers, the role players can only bail them out so many times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Boston this offseason. You know I actually feel a lot better about this team after seeing them win those 3 games in a row. Yes, the loss still sucks, but for me it’s better than being swept. If they can afford to keep both Tatum and Brown I think they should. They’re both great players. I really think you can attribute a lot of their struggles to being young and learning to be a champion. I do think they need to make moves. Most notably adding another big man. Al can come off the bench. I also think adding a new PG would be the way to go too. Maybe they can package Pritchard and Smart in a trade?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 11:52:20 GMT
You know what's worse than being swept? Battling back from 0-3 only to get blown the fuck out in game 7 in your own building. The upside? If we barely lose this game, ownership may not make major changes. But after this embarrassing display, you have to believe they're ready to do something drastic. This core can't win, it's been established. Tatum and Brown are big game chokers, the role players can only bail them out so many times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Boston this offseason. One of those 2 has got to be traded I would think. It'll be Brown. Tatum has disappeared down the stretch in a ton of games, but at least his numbers overall can justify him staying. Brown was blown off the court by Caleb Martin in this series. Personally, I don't think either of them will ever win anything here, so I'd be fine with getting rid of them. But there's no way to sell that to the fans. "We're going to get rid of these two all-NBA guys and start over." Sell tickets and make the second round every year, that's the goal.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 11:59:35 GMT
You know what's worse than being swept? Battling back from 0-3 only to get blown the fuck out in game 7 in your own building. The upside? If we barely lose this game, ownership may not make major changes. But after this embarrassing display, you have to believe they're ready to do something drastic. This core can't win, it's been established. Tatum and Brown are big game chokers, the role players can only bail them out so many times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Boston this offseason. You know I actually feel a lot better about this team after seeing them win those 3 games in a row. Yes, the loss still sucks, but for me it’s better than being swept. If they can afford to keep both Tatum and Brown I think they should. They’re both great players. I really think you can attribute a lot of their struggles to being young and learning to be a champion. I do think they need to make moves. Most notably adding another big man. Al can come off the bench. I also think adding a new PG would be the way to go too. Maybe they can package Pritchard and Smart in a trade? I think despite the 19 point loss, if Tatum doesn't ugly-sprain his ankle on the first play, there's a good chance Boston wins that game. Gabe Vincent had to sit a game after the same thing, but Tatum couldn't do anything, and he's their #1 star. So Butler gets the Celtics' Larry Bird Trophy, Heat get the Celtics' Bob Cousy Eastern Conference Championship Trophy.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 12:19:26 GMT
You know what's worse than being swept? Battling back from 0-3 only to get blown the fuck out in game 7 in your own building. The upside? If we barely lose this game, ownership may not make major changes. But after this embarrassing display, you have to believe they're ready to do something drastic. This core can't win, it's been established. Tatum and Brown are big game chokers, the role players can only bail them out so many times. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Boston this offseason. You know I actually feel a lot better about this team after seeing them win those 3 games in a row. Yes, the loss still sucks, but for me it’s better than being swept. If they can afford to keep both Tatum and Brown I think they should. They’re both great players. I really think you can attribute a lot of their struggles to being young and learning to be a champion. I do think they need to make moves. Most notably adding another big man. Al can come off the bench. I also think adding a new PG would be the way to go too. Maybe they can package Pritchard and Smart in a trade? In what year will Brown learn that he can't dribble like Iverson and turn it over 350 times in a series? In what season will Tatum learn you have to show up every game, and play all four quarters? When this team isn't pissing away double digit leads in the 4th, they're just getting their doors blown off from the jump. This team is who we thought they were. Hit your threes early and run away with the game, and clank your threes and lose close games. (Or just get blown out because your threes weren't dropping and you don't know how else to score.) It's all they've ever done, and we saw it showcased this postseason. This series was a disgrace. They got embarrassed in three straight games, played with house money for a few (and still almost pissed away game 6), and when it came down to do or die time, they laid an egg at home. AGAIN. If they had lost this game by five points, I'd agree with you. But they didn't even show up. They scored 15 points in the first quarter. They played four terrible games in this series, and three of them were at home. It's unconscionable. If they were learning how to win a championship, they'd progress each season. They regressed this year. Last year they swept Brooklyn in the first round, beat the defending champs in seven games, won another wonky 7 game series against the Heat where both teams had guys coming in and out of the lineup due to injury, and lost the title to a dynasty Warriors team. This year they lost a home closeout game in the first round to a play in team, needed 7 games against a gutless Philly squad, and went down 3-0 to an 8 seed, eventually losing the series AT HOME with yet another mail in performance. How is any of that encouraging? I don't see how anyone can watch this series and think this team has what it takes to win. Is the new big man or PG going to set the tone for them and take the big shots down the stretch? Isn't that Tatum's job? Your leader is a no show in literally half of your games, and you're going to win a title? That Tatum possession near the end of game 6 says it all. Season on the line, the guy panics, takes 17 steps and loses the ball in midair. That's who he is. Before the playoffs even started I said I wanted no part of Miami, and this is why. They play hard every night, the Celtics don't. You don't 'learn' that in your seventh season.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 12:26:56 GMT
The numbers mostly support Butler as MVP.
MIN Butler 39.0, Martin 34.1 PTS Butler 24.2, Martin 18.2 (difference of 6.2 on free throws) REB Butler 7.7, Martin 5.8 AST Butler 6.2, Martin 1.5 STL Butler 2.5, Martin 0.8 BLK Butler 0.5, Martin 0.7 TOV Butler 2.3, Martin 1.0
FG% Butler .417, Martin .583 3P% Butler .313, Martin .462
Plus/Minus Butler +3, Martin +31
Average "Game Score" - Butler 21.0, Martin 14.9
Martin with a slightly higher offensive rating and defensive rating per 100 possessions.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 12:55:30 GMT
You know I actually feel a lot better about this team after seeing them win those 3 games in a row. Yes, the loss still sucks, but for me it’s better than being swept. If they can afford to keep both Tatum and Brown I think they should. They’re both great players. I really think you can attribute a lot of their struggles to being young and learning to be a champion. I do think they need to make moves. Most notably adding another big man. Al can come off the bench. I also think adding a new PG would be the way to go too. Maybe they can package Pritchard and Smart in a trade? I think despite the 19 point loss, if Tatum doesn't ugly-sprain his ankle on the first play, there's a good chance Boston wins that game. Gabe Vincent had to sit a game after the same thing, but Tatum couldn't do anything, and he's their #1 star. So Butler gets the Celtics' Larry Bird Trophy, Heat get the Celtics' Bob Cousy Eastern Conference Championship Trophy. Tatum didn't have a sprained ankle when he scored 6 points in the second half of game 6. He didn't have a sprained ankle when he had ZERO fourth quarter FGs in games 1-3. There's no reason to assume he would've been the difference here. Regardless, Brown is tired of being seen as 1B to Tatum's 1A? Now was his chance. He also did nothing. The Warriors have the Splash Brothers, the Celtics have the Crash Brothers.
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Post by sdm3 on May 30, 2023 15:20:32 GMT
The Athletic:
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Surly
Sophomore
@surly
Posts: 913
Likes: 784
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Post by Surly on May 30, 2023 15:23:21 GMT
One of those 2 has got to be traded I would think. It'll be Brown. Tatum has disappeared down the stretch in a ton of games, but at least his numbers overall can justify him staying. Brown was blown off the court by Caleb Martin in this series. Personally, I don't think either of them will ever win anything here, so I'd be fine with getting rid of them. But there's no way to sell that to the fans. "We're going to get rid of these two all-NBA guys and start over." Sell tickets and make the second round every year, that's the goal. Yeah I agree. And even though Tatum has disappeared in big moments he has a bit of an excuse in game 7. He rolled his ankle at the start of the game. They need to bring in another star. Preferably a player that’s consistent and very clutch. They need that player that thrives off of pressure and can be clutch in big moments.
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Post by sdm3 on May 30, 2023 15:28:51 GMT
It'll be Brown. Tatum has disappeared down the stretch in a ton of games, but at least his numbers overall can justify him staying. Brown was blown off the court by Caleb Martin in this series. Personally, I don't think either of them will ever win anything here, so I'd be fine with getting rid of them. But there's no way to sell that to the fans. "We're going to get rid of these two all-NBA guys and start over." Sell tickets and make the second round every year, that's the goal. Yeah I agree. And even though Tatum has disappeared in big moments he has a bit of an excuse in game 7. He rolled his ankle at the start of the game. They need to bring in another star. Preferably a player that’s consistent and very clutch. They need that player that thrives off of pressure and can be clutch in big moments. Should be easy enough to find one of those...
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 15:58:11 GMT
sdm3In a wide open conference, they may as well. I just don't see how anyone can be excited about it after the big stage flops we've seen the last two years. "They're young." They've played a million playoff games now, and made a Finals. It's hard to imagine that either of them will suddenly develop a killer instinct in year 8 or 9. They are who they are at this point. It's sound logic to bring them back, because I can't imagine fans would love the idea of a teardown and rebuild. But I'm glad I'm not an owner. The idea of paying these guys $650M combined over the next few years to underperform in the playoffs each season would scare the shit out of me. It can't be about the supporting cast, the supporting cast kept them in some of these games. Yes there will be tweaks, but that isn't what's going to get this team over the hump. Game 7 shouldn't be coming down to whether your fourth scoring option has a big game. Tatum and Brown are chokers, plain and simple. Until you solve that, it doesn't matter who your backup center is. I will say Mazzulla earned the right to return. He was atrocious early on, but he improved as this series went on. He wasn't the reason they won any more than he was the reason they lost, but his noticeable improvement in, at the very least, the use of timeouts and challenges, should get him a second shot. I don't see how a fourth coach in four seasons would change anything.
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Post by sdm3 on May 30, 2023 16:20:47 GMT
sdm3 In a wide open conference, they may as well. I just don't see how anyone can be excited about it after the big stage flops we've seen the last two years. "They're young." They've played a million playoff games now, and made a Finals. It's hard to imagine that either of them will suddenly develop a killer instinct in year 8 or 9. They are who they are at this point. It's sound logic to bring them back, because I can't imagine fans would love the idea of a teardown and rebuild. But I'm glad I'm not an owner. The idea of paying these guys $650M combined over the next few years to underperform in the playoffs each season would scare the shit out of me. It can't be about the supporting cast, the supporting cast kept them in some of these games. Yes there will be tweaks, but that isn't what's going to get this team over the hump. Game 7 shouldn't be coming down to whether your fourth scoring option has a big game. Tatum and Brown are chokers, plain and simple. Until you solve that, it doesn't matter who your backup center is. I will say Mazzulla earned the right to return. He was atrocious early on, but he improved as this series went on. He wasn't the reason they won any more than he was the reason they lost, but his noticeable improvement in, at the very least, the use of timeouts and challenges, should get him a second shot. I don't see how a fourth coach in four seasons would change anything. Everyone's a choker until they aren't; Ovechkin, Manning, A-Rod, Favre etc. Tatum and Brown may never achieve what those guys eventually did, but if the alternative is a rebuild, you simply have to hold onto this caliber of player until their time has simply run its course. Didn't Tatum produce one of the all-time great game 7 performances against Philly in round 2? Hey, all you need to do is acquire a clutch, consistent star - but other than that, running it back is all you can do. Not to make a Frogs argument here but the C's really are right there in the East. Why throw it away? What are you gonna get by trading your stars? Assets? Philly can tell you all about those. You're one of the most consistent teams in the conference (unlike Philly) - and until that changes, you just have to do what every contending team does on a yearly basis: try, try again.
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Post by DrKrippen on May 30, 2023 16:22:26 GMT
Jaylen Brown turns into a turn over machine.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 16:39:35 GMT
Everyone's a choker until they aren't; Ovechkin, Manning, A-Rod, Favre etc. Favre won the Super Bowl in Year 4. Go with Elway, year 9.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 16:45:59 GMT
Bob Myers stepping down.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 18:13:10 GMT
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 18:25:24 GMT
Sad but true. That's a great way to put it, too. "Every game they were expected to win, they lost." They should make t-shirts featuring Tatum & Brown that read: "The Crash Brothers. Every game they were expected to win, they lost."
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Post by NJtoTX on May 30, 2023 18:42:02 GMT
Sad but true. That's a great way to put it, too. "Every game they were expected to win, they lost." They should make t-shirts featuring Tatum & Brown that read: "The Crash Brothers. Every game they were expected to win, they lost." Vegas had them favored to win all but Game 4, though.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 30, 2023 18:56:41 GMT
Sad but true. That's a great way to put it, too. "Every game they were expected to win, they lost." They should make t-shirts featuring Tatum & Brown that read: "The Crash Brothers. Every game they were expected to win, they lost." Vegas had them favored to win all but Game 4, though. I know what Draymond means, though. Games 4, 5 and 6 were about saving face. "Can they at least make this less embarrassing?" Any game where it was about actually winning the series, the Celtics collapsed. Manhandled at home in games 1 & 2, completely quit in game 3 and didn't bother showing up in game 7.
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Post by sdm3 on May 30, 2023 19:01:05 GMT
Everyone's a choker until they aren't; Ovechkin, Manning, A-Rod, Favre etc. Favre won the Super Bowl in Year 4. Go with Elway, year 9. I was actually referring to his playoff performances in his career after the SB win; it just goes to show that even “winners” can turn into chumps and vice versa.
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