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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 0:31:40 GMT
One can see Whedon's stress. No kidding. Watching this film is like watching a man juggle eight chainsaws and a live bear, and then being amazed when he doesn't stop the bear or cut any of his limbs off.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 1:10:09 GMT
I don't know what previous discussion you two had talked about, but it's completely normal and acceptable to criticize something even though you liked it overall. What isn't normal is believing that every MCU movie is absolutely perfect. It's normal to have reasonable criticisms, sure. And I never said every MCU film was perfect, but with a nearly unthinkable scale of the project they've presented us and more or less nailed at every corner, there's really not much to reasonably complain about. So when people write comments like "purple blob" to describe really awesome things like Thanos, they just sound more like douchebags than people who want a reasonable discussion. Let me ask you a serious question: does your rule of "don't talk about what you didn't like" apply to Raimi's Spiderman movies? What about Fox's X Men movies, or Nolan's Batman movies? Do you give them praise without saying anything negative? i seem to recall you saying negative things about WW. So how is that any different? Honestly?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on May 30, 2017 2:23:35 GMT
Let me ask you a serious question: does your rule of "don't talk about what you didn't like" apply to Raimi's Spiderman movies? What about Fox's X Men movies, or Nolan's Batman movies? Do you give them praise without saying anything negative? i seem to recall you saying negative things about WW. So how is that any different? Honestly? No, and I'm actually really glad you asked. It's not all things Marvel are perfect. There have been plenty of Marvel films which deserve all the criticism they get. It's just that the MCU films aren't one of those.
Examples of films that I think have no business being complained about would be the first two X-Men films, the first couple of Spiderman films (outside of perhaps the whiney love angle bit), and the first two Nolan Batman films (The third of which there are a few things that stand out as legitimate concerns).
I haven't seen Wonder Woman, so I don't know how I could have said anything bad about it. I did say it featured the same grey tone as the DCU has so far, and as best I can tell that's pretty much true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work in the film. The DCU in general however at this point has been extremely poorly crafted and related films to those don't exist in a pure vacuum and DC hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt so far. That could change, and maybe WW will start that. It definitely seems much more promising at this point.
But no, I'm not some pure Marvel zealot. When the MCU starts making bad films I'll be the first to say it.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 2:39:38 GMT
Let me ask you a serious question: does your rule of "don't talk about what you didn't like" apply to Raimi's Spiderman movies? What about Fox's X Men movies, or Nolan's Batman movies? Do you give them praise without saying anything negative? i seem to recall you saying negative things about WW. So how is that any different? Honestly? No, and I'm actually really glad you asked. It's not all things Marvel are perfect. There have been plenty of Marvel films which deserve all the criticism they get. It's just that the MCU films aren't one of those.
Examples of films that I think have no business being complained about would be the first two X-Men films, the first couple of Spiderman films (outside of perhaps the whiney love angle bit), and the first two Nolan Batman films (The third of which there are a few things that stand out as legitimate concerns).
I haven't seen Wonder Woman, so I don't know how I could have said anything bad about it. I did say it featured the same grey tone as the DCU has so far, and as best I can tell that's pretty much true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work in the film. The DCU in general however at this point has been extremely poorly crafted and related films to those don't exist in a pure vacuum and DC hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt so far. That could change, and maybe WW will start that. It definitely seems much more promising at this point.
But no, I'm not some pure Marvel zealot. When the MCU starts making bad films I'll be the first to say it.
So, WHY are your concerns with TDKR "legitimate" but someone else's concerns with AOU aren't?? Also, you yourself created a thread in the LotR board about how you "HATE" The Hobbit movies, focusing on the negatives. So what exactly is the difference? You can't possibly tell me that Thor 2 is so much massively better than The Hobbit trilogy... And even if you can, that would be completely subjective, therefore any statement towards the validity of one opinion over another would be hypocritical at best... Your argument seems to be to be predicated on the logic that movies are either undeniably good or undeniably bad with no middle ground. btw I don't mean to antagonize you again. I just find this point of view fascinating and much desire to understand it.
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Post by brownstones on May 30, 2017 2:40:54 GMT
the movie is fine. 7.7/10
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Post by justanaveragejoe on May 30, 2017 2:52:52 GMT
I liked Age of Ultron, didn't love it like I did the first Avengers. To me, it tried to set Phase 3 way too much, from Infinity War to Black Panther to Thor Ragnarok, rather than being just a sequel to The Avengers. I know the entire MCU is like that, but this was Iron Man 2 level bad. I could also feel Joss Whedon's tiredness watching it. On the plus side, I'm glad the Russo Bros. are filling in the director chairs to finish the trilogy, or in this case, quadrilogy.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on May 30, 2017 3:16:40 GMT
So, WHY are your concerns with TDKR "legitimate" but someone else's concerns with AOU aren't?? Also, you yourself created a thread in the LotR board about how you "HATE" The Hobbit movies, focusing on the negatives. So what exactly is the difference? You can't possibly tell me that Thor 2 is so much massively better than The Hobbit trilogy... And even if you can, that would be completely subjective, therefore any statement towards the validity of one opinion over another would be hypocritical at best... Your argument seems to be to be predicated on the logic that movies are either undeniably good or undeniably bad with no middle ground. btw I don't mean to antagonize you again. I just find this point of view fascinating and much desire to understand it. Ok, well I'll start off by saying that my point of view isn't that things are undeniably good or undeniably bad. There are many levels of middle ground.
Instead of listing off negative features of either TDKR or the Hobbit and getting into this "it's all subjective" conversation, which doesn't help anybody understand anything, I'll bring it back to the point I made in the beginning, which is that there is nothing in TDW which is overtly ill crafted. Being able to improve something doesn't necessarily mean the current version is bad, so my objection to many of the comments to that film in particular is that to come out and say a better Thor film is possible, does not translate to TDW sucks. No, it's a fine film. And by the same token I hope Ragnorak blows it out of the water, but TDW will still be a fine film. In that regard you can see I very clearly have a middle ground and it's the "TDW sucks" crowd that falls into the undeniably good/bad mentality, which I like you, would be against. All I'm saying is that if a product is well made, stop nitpicking it. My only issue with TDKR is not any particular scene, but that the overall construction was clearly not as meticulously constructed as either of the previous two films, and I could go into detail on that, but it still falls into (just relax and enjoy it column) almost Godfather 3. It's more of a for fans only type of film, it's fine, but it's definitely not as polished as the first two. And that's TDKR.
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Post by twothousandonemark on May 30, 2017 3:19:02 GMT
Ultron A Avengers A- Civil War A-
My fav so far.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 3:32:41 GMT
Huh? Ant-man was the movie after AoU? Hank Pym wasnt a factor in the MCU when AoU came out. This makes no sense. In the comics Hank Pym created Ultron not Stark. I know but that doesnt mean that what you said makes sense when it comes to the MCU.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 30, 2017 3:44:25 GMT
As I posted a month or so back, I originally was disappointed with AoU. After I watched it again, I liked it quite a bit. The only part I remember hating that I still do is the Black Widow-Hulk romance. I liked that it was trying to humanize Widow, but it was awkwardly written - not necessarily bad, just awkward. I have warmed to the action, which I originally didn't like. I even think the action is better here than the first one. That being said, the first one is still a little better overall. Ok, so I'm being friendly here, but I just want to call you out on something. You and I recently had this conversation about a tendency of posting negative comments. Your first line here was cool, you started out talking about being disappointed initially but then followed up quickly by saying you now really like it. Great. And then the very next line you start talking about what you hate. I don't get it man. Why do you find it so critical to say you like something quite a bit but then immediately start talking about the things you hate about it. You said in our previous conversation that you didn't literally mean you walk of theaters talking about things you don't like, but you did say you focus on the negatives to get them out of the way, and it really seems that way. IDK, negatives are a distant afterthought for me, but you really get in there and roll around with them.
I don't know. It's just the critic in me. If I don't separate the good from the bad in a movie, then I can't analyze it. There is no such thing as a perfect movie. Plus, I doubt that you would give AoU a 10/10, and neither would I. The only difference between us is that you would say that you liked it, but you'd rather not look in depth at the flaws. I do the opposite. In fact, I've found that the flaws of a movie can actually enhance the good qualities. The more that you analyze and appreciate the good and bad, the better the movie becomes. Simply put, I analyze movies differently than you do. And, no, I don't give Marvel movies the benefit of the doubt because their predecessors were good. I judge each movie independently, then judge it by the context of the franchise. Side note: I admit that the comment about "walking out of a theater" was poorly phrased and contradictory. Anyone who walks out of a theater (even if the movie is terrible) and immediately bashes a movie has no business calling themselves a movie fan.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 4:02:37 GMT
Ok, so I'm being friendly here, but I just want to call you out on something. You and I recently had this conversation about a tendency of posting negative comments. Your first line here was cool, you started out talking about being disappointed initially but then followed up quickly by saying you now really like it. Great. And then the very next line you start talking about what you hate. I don't get it man. Why do you find it so critical to say you like something quite a bit but then immediately start talking about the things you hate about it. You said in our previous conversation that you didn't literally mean you walk of theaters talking about things you don't like, but you did say you focus on the negatives to get them out of the way, and it really seems that way. IDK, negatives are a distant afterthought for me, but you really get in there and roll around with them.
I don't know. It's just the critic in me. If I don't separate the good from the bad in a movie, then I can't analyze it. There is no such thing as a perfect movie. Plus, I doubt that you would give AoU a 10/10, and neither would I. The only difference between us is that you would say that you liked it, but you'd rather not look in depth at the flaws. I do the opposite. In fact, I've found that the flaws of a movie can actually enhance the good qualities. The more that you analyze and appreciate the good and bad, the better the movie becomes. Simply put, I analyze movies differently than you do. And, no, I don't give Marvel movies the benefit of the doubt because their predecessors were good. I judge each movie independently, then judge it by the context of the franchise. Side note: I admit that the comment about "walking out of a theater" was poorly phrased and contradictory. Anyone who walks out of a theater (even if the movie is terrible) and immediately bashes a movie has no business calling themselves a movie fan. Your last statement. I saw Fifty Shades Darker on theatre.... Lets just say I cant really agree with that statement. Because I do consider myself a moviefan...
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 30, 2017 4:04:58 GMT
I don't know. It's just the critic in me. If I don't separate the good from the bad in a movie, then I can't analyze it. There is no such thing as a perfect movie. Plus, I doubt that you would give AoU a 10/10, and neither would I. The only difference between us is that you would say that you liked it, but you'd rather not look in depth at the flaws. I do the opposite. In fact, I've found that the flaws of a movie can actually enhance the good qualities. The more that you analyze and appreciate the good and bad, the better the movie becomes. Simply put, I analyze movies differently than you do. And, no, I don't give Marvel movies the benefit of the doubt because their predecessors were good. I judge each movie independently, then judge it by the context of the franchise. Side note: I admit that the comment about "walking out of a theater" was poorly phrased and contradictory. Anyone who walks out of a theater (even if the movie is terrible) and immediately bashes a movie has no business calling themselves a movie fan. Your last statement. I saw Fifty Shades Darker on theatre.... Lets just say I cant really agree with that statement. Because I do consider myself a moviefan... There are exceptions to every rule. The "Fifty Shades" Franchise is definitely an exception to that rule.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on May 30, 2017 4:52:56 GMT
I don't know. It's just the critic in me. If I don't separate the good from the bad in a movie, then I can't analyze it. There is no such thing as a perfect movie. Plus, I doubt that you would give AoU a 10/10, and neither would I. The only difference between us is that you would say that you liked it, but you'd rather not look in depth at the flaws. I do the opposite. In fact, I've found that the flaws of a movie can actually enhance the good qualities. The more that you analyze and appreciate the good and bad, the better the movie becomes. Simply put, I analyze movies differently than you do. And, no, I don't give Marvel movies the benefit of the doubt because their predecessors were good. I judge each movie independently, then judge it by the context of the franchise. Side note: I admit that the comment about "walking out of a theater" was poorly phrased and contradictory. Anyone who walks out of a theater (even if the movie is terrible) and immediately bashes a movie has no business calling themselves a movie fan. For me it's just, was it awesome? Yes? Great, I'm not going to define what was bad about films I love. To the contrary I find reasons to love everything more.
The fact that a movie isn't "perfect" doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. And not giving something a 10/10 doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it either. A 10/10 is a transcendent film in my book. An 8/10 is still perfectly good. A slice of cheesecake is fucking fantastic. Would it be better with some chocolate sauce? yes!!!! Is the cheesecake by itself flawed because it doesn't have chocolate sauce? NO!
I just don't sit around with movies I love and say "there's a flaw, that's a flaw, there's another one." I would legitimately hate watching films in that manner.
I do give Marvel the benefit of the doubt, because they have a proven track record. They've earned our respect. I don't know what else anybody would expect when they not only continue to improve, but have also given us this amazing run of films that's beyond comparison to anything else in cinema.
But I think we're at least coming to an understanding. I get that you enjoy being critical of films. I'm only that way if a movie was not enjoyable in some way and I attempt to define why. I do not try to find and focus on things not to like about it.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 30, 2017 5:04:45 GMT
I don't know. It's just the critic in me. If I don't separate the good from the bad in a movie, then I can't analyze it. There is no such thing as a perfect movie. Plus, I doubt that you would give AoU a 10/10, and neither would I. The only difference between us is that you would say that you liked it, but you'd rather not look in depth at the flaws. I do the opposite. In fact, I've found that the flaws of a movie can actually enhance the good qualities. The more that you analyze and appreciate the good and bad, the better the movie becomes. Simply put, I analyze movies differently than you do. And, no, I don't give Marvel movies the benefit of the doubt because their predecessors were good. I judge each movie independently, then judge it by the context of the franchise. Side note: I admit that the comment about "walking out of a theater" was poorly phrased and contradictory. Anyone who walks out of a theater (even if the movie is terrible) and immediately bashes a movie has no business calling themselves a movie fan. For me it's just, was it awesome? Yes? Great, I'm not going to define what was bad about films I love. To the contrary I find reasons to love everything more.
The fact that a movie isn't "perfect" doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. And not giving something a 10/10 doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it either. A 10/10 is a transcendent film in my book. An 8/10 is still perfectly good. A slice of cheesecake is fucking fantastic. Would it be better with some chocolate sauce? yes!!!! Is the cheesecake by itself flawed because it doesn't have chocolate sauce? NO!
I just don't sit around with movies I love and say "there's a flaw, that's a flaw, there's another one." I would legitimately hate watching films in that manner.
I do give Marvel the benefit of the doubt, because they have a proven track record. They've earned our respect. I don't know what else anybody would expect when they not only continue to improve, but have also given us this amazing run of films that's beyond comparison to anything else in cinema.
But I think we're at least coming to an understanding. I get that you enjoy being critical of films. I'm only that way if a movie was not enjoyable in some way and I attempt to define why. I do not try to find and focus on things not to like about it.
Watch Chris Stuckmann's review of Wonder Woman (or any of his reviews really, WW is just his most recent). That's precisely how I am. I nitpick and I might find more than the average viewer, but I'm nothing special. Stuckmann stays positive and honest, yet goes with his gut on reviews and scores. I'm essentially just like that.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 6:32:23 GMT
Im usually on par with Chris Stuckmann. But I watch the movie first myself before I watch or read any reviews. Same reason I only watch two trailers (teaser and theatrical) before I see a movie. I dont want to get spoiled too much. After seeing it myself I read and watch all and see if I agree or that I missed something. I found out that I tend to agree with Chris a lot and I dont have to change my opinion for that.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on May 30, 2017 7:41:16 GMT
I think I liked Avengers: Age of Ultron a little bit more than The Avengers, and that was probably mostly due to the presence of Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda Maximoff/Scarlet Witch in the sequel (and the absence of a certain character who I wasn’t fond of). I really grew to like Wanda's character over the course of the film - which was quite the feat, considering she and her brother started off the film being against the Avengers. I really thought they should’ve gone to the film’s title off of Elizabeth Olsen’s creepy smile she gave as Wanda at the start – as I thought that would’ve given a decent sense of ‘foreboding’. I just thought it was so effectively unnerving...but, no, they went with Stark and Loki’s staff instead. I really liked the sibling relationship between the Maximoffs, and their dynamics with Hawkeye. I even enjoyed his pep talk with Wanda – especially since it led to one of my favourite moments from the movie. Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger are my two favourite MCU movies thus far, so naturally the parts I enjoyed most in Age of Ultron were with Cap, Thor, as well as Wanda and Natasha. When these characters were interacting with the other characters, I was able to enjoy the movie more. I get why some people wouldn’t have liked him, but I didn’t really have a problem with Ultron as the villain. Not even the Bruce/Natasha pairing bothered me really. Though there was some stuff I wasn't too fond of in the movie - mainly just things like focusing on certain characters who I'm not a fan of and the fact that I felt Thor was given short shrift in the first film, and this second movie wasn’t much better with its treatment of him (at least in my view). I guess if I had to explain why I like AoU better than the first movie, it’d simply be because there was more stuff in it that I liked than didn’t like (though I did enjoy The Avengers a fair amount...just maybe not as much as a lot of people did). Since the two Avengers movies (plus Civil War) have so many main characters, my enjoyment of them is bound to be affected due to the fact that some characters I don’t like are getting focus. The screentime spent on them make those scenes of the movie less interesting for me to watch. It just becomes about how much screentime is given to the characters who I *do* like, versus how much is given to those I don’t care for.
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Post by Skaathar on May 30, 2017 13:46:06 GMT
Let me ask you a serious question: does your rule of "don't talk about what you didn't like" apply to Raimi's Spiderman movies? What about Fox's X Men movies, or Nolan's Batman movies? Do you give them praise without saying anything negative? i seem to recall you saying negative things about WW. So how is that any different? Honestly? No, and I'm actually really glad you asked. It's not all things Marvel are perfect. There have been plenty of Marvel films which deserve all the criticism they get. It's just that the MCU films aren't one of those.
Examples of films that I think have no business being complained about would be the first two X-Men films, the first couple of Spiderman films (outside of perhaps the whiney love angle bit), and the first two Nolan Batman films (The third of which there are a few things that stand out as legitimate concerns).
I haven't seen Wonder Woman, so I don't know how I could have said anything bad about it. I did say it featured the same grey tone as the DCU has so far, and as best I can tell that's pretty much true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work in the film. The DCU in general however at this point has been extremely poorly crafted and related films to those don't exist in a pure vacuum and DC hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt so far. That could change, and maybe WW will start that. It definitely seems much more promising at this point.
But no, I'm not some pure Marvel zealot. When the MCU starts making bad films I'll be the first to say it.
Are you saying that you don't find anything wrong with ANY mcu movie at all?
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Post by Atom(ica) Discord on May 30, 2017 17:16:59 GMT
SkaatharSpeaking for myself, that would be preposterous. Of course, MCU films, like all movies, have flaws. However, I think it is fair to say that many people go into MCU movies with the sole intention of finding and subsequently broadcasting all of their flaws to anyone who will listen. Furthermore, many vindictive detractors who don't enjoy the tone or style of Marvel films frequently package their personal bias as objectively quantifiable facts. MCU films are some of the most heavily scrutinized films of any genre by both fans and critics alike. That fact bothered me until I realized it was likely the reason why MCU films have such a high standard of quality. It's not easy juggling a cinematic universe with, by now, hundreds of characters spread across dozens of Movies, TV shows, and other media. I was critical of Man of Steel, and it's follow-up, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. After the release of that second film, I stopped watching and talking about DCEU movies and characters for two reasons. 1). I realized that while some DC characters are interesting and even thought-provoking, I don't have any deep affinity for them. 2). Hardcore DC fans, at least in my experience, are some of the most toxic and consistently combative fans in all of the fandom. SaveSave
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Post by ArArArchStanton on May 31, 2017 4:39:06 GMT
Are you saying that you don't find anything wrong with ANY mcu movie at all? Nothing comes to mind. You might be able to name something, but I can't really think of anything that is particularly wrong, no.
I used this example elsewhere, but it's like having ice cream. It's quite often got some fudge, perhaps some caramel, occasionally some fruit flavors, and sometimes it might even have some sprinkles, but is there anything wrong when there is a bite or two of just vanilla, or is it still pretty good? Because I think it's still pretty good, and it only gets better from their when they add a lot of toppings.
But if you can name something you think is legitimately bad, I'd love to hear it and discuss it a bit.
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Post by Skaathar on May 31, 2017 5:06:31 GMT
Are you saying that you don't find anything wrong with ANY mcu movie at all? Nothing comes to mind. You might be able to name something, but I can't really think of anything that is particularly wrong, no.
I used this example elsewhere, but it's like having ice cream. It's quite often got some fudge, perhaps some caramel, occasionally some fruit flavors, and sometimes it might even have some sprinkles, but is there anything wrong when there is a bite or two of just vanilla, or is it still pretty good? Because I think it's still pretty good, and it only gets better from their when they add a lot of toppings.
But if you can name something you think is legitimately bad, I'd love to hear it and discuss it a bit.
I've done this dance with you before. I criticize something in an MCU movie, then you defend it like it's still the best thing ever. But sure let's give it a shot. Captain America's costume in Avengers. Completely campy and, considering the quality of other costumes we've seen in superhero movies, feels ridiculously outdated.
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