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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 13:44:39 GMT
Consider this: positive experiences only have any value to sentient organisms which are capable of appreciating both positive and negative. A non-existent organism has no use for any positive experiences, without the capacity for pleasure, or to feel the absence of negativity. Also consider that positive experiences are mainly defined by the absence of negativity.
So why would a creator of infinite wisdom bring sentient life into the universe when there was a near-certainty of each organism experiencing great harm, and when the reward for a lifetime of harm and hardship was meaningless? If there were no afterlife, but just oblivion after death, this would be JUST AS GOOD as any heavenly reward that could be envisaged, because we would no longer have any need or desire for the reward. Non-existence is objectively just as good as a good life. God's entire rationale for creating humanity, including the reward that he has given us the chance to earn, is based on very unstable foundations.
You have forgotten one big fact of life: It is unfair. Some people have everything and others have nothing. Some have their hands chopped off for trying to steal bread to feed themselves. While some people spend their whole lives in utter pleasure. If there is no afterlife, it makes no sense whatsoever that some people spent their whole lives happy while others died in utter misery.   We agree that life is unfair, but you've ignored the fact that non-existence is just as good as paradise. Paradise is merely a solution to the problem of consciousness. An inanimate piece of matter such as an office desk may as well be in heaven, because it has no needs or wants that are unfulfilled. It never feels any deprivation. Therefore, oblivion after death is the great leveller. It doesn't make any moral sense to put some people in harms way so that a small minority can have a good time, so bringing live into existence with no guarantee of the wellbeing of all living things would be immoral and nonsensical. Also, heaven would be egregiously unfair if those who did not enter heaven were punished in hell. As discussed in the free will thread, people are not ultimately to blame for their actions, because the choices of every individual are caused by factors over which they could exert no control, and nobody can choose which thoughts to think before thinking them. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:02:10 GMT
You have forgotten one big fact of life: It is unfair. Some people have everything and others have nothing. Some have their hands chopped off for trying to steal bread to feed themselves. While some people spend their whole lives in utter pleasure. If there is no afterlife, it makes no sense whatsoever that some people spent their whole lives happy while others died in utter misery. We agree that life is unfair, but you've ignored the fact that non-existence is just as good as paradise. Paradise is merely a solution to the problem of consciousness. I never thought of it that way. I guess you might say that a rich, beautiful and privileged person surrounded by beauty around him and within may be going thru existential crises and mental anguish plus other problems, while a poor person might be utterly carefree and enjoying the society from the outside, and kind of free from this world.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:03:20 GMT
If heaven and hell exist, heaven is for people who are good in nature. And hell is for bad and evil people. It is kind of a just system.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:05:29 GMT
If heaven and hell exist, heaven is for people who are good in nature. And hell is for bad and evil people. It is kind of a just system. How is it a just system a) to put someone at risk of eternal harm in the first place; b) if a person's bad nature is caused by factors over which he exerted no control (as is certainly the case)? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:14:38 GMT
If heaven and hell exist, heaven is for people who are good in nature. And hell is for bad and evil people. It is kind of a just system. How is it a just system a) to put someone at risk of eternal harm in the first place; b) if a person's bad nature is caused by factors over which he exerted no control (as is certainly the case)? No one tells a murderer to go kill someone. He does it because he is evil. He doesn't deserve heaven. |
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Post by OldSamVimes on Feb 23, 2017 14:19:44 GMT
'Heaven' and 'Hell'.
Two things that can't be proven, but make for great spiritual blackmailing tools.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:33:18 GMT
How is it a just system a) to put someone at risk of eternal harm in the first place; b) if a person's bad nature is caused by factors over which he exerted no control (as is certainly the case)? No one tells a murderer to go kill someone. He does it because he is evil. He doesn't deserve heaven. His genes, his experiences growing up, events occurring around him in the environment shape his brain into the thing which makes the decision to commit murder. Before he was born, he didn't ask to be born as the type of person who would go on to commit murder later in life. He was born without his consent, he didn't get to choose which genes or upbringing he would receive, he didn't get to choose what would happen to him which would compound his bad start in life. The murderer cannot consciously direct which neurons are going to fire in his brain which will compel him to commit murder. How would you even propose that would work if the murderer were able to choose which thoughts he was going to think, and which impulses he was going to feel, and what his preferences, biases and vulnerabilities were going to be? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:40:37 GMT
No one tells a murderer to go kill someone. He does it because he is evil. He doesn't deserve heaven. His genes, his experiences growing up, events occurring around him in the environment shape his brain into the thing which makes the decision to commit murder. Before he was born, he didn't ask to be born as the type of person who would go on to commit murder later in life. He was born without his consent, he didn't get to choose which genes or upbringing he would receive, he didn't get to choose what would happen to him which would compound his bad start in life. The murderer cannot consciously direct which neurons are going to fire in his brain which will compel him to commit murder. How would you even propose that would work if the murderer were able to choose which thoughts he was going to think, and which impulses he was going to feel, and what his preferences, biases and vulnerabilities were going to be? You are justifying suicides, murders, abortions, death penalties, and many other things here. Are you are an anti-natalist? Yep, you are. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:41:24 GMT
His genes, his experiences growing up, events occurring around him in the environment shape his brain into the thing which makes the decision to commit murder. Before he was born, he didn't ask to be born as the type of person who would go on to commit murder later in life. He was born without his consent, he didn't get to choose which genes or upbringing he would receive, he didn't get to choose what would happen to him which would compound his bad start in life. The murderer cannot consciously direct which neurons are going to fire in his brain which will compel him to commit murder. How would you even propose that would work if the murderer were able to choose which thoughts he was going to think, and which impulses he was going to feel, and what his preferences, biases and vulnerabilities were going to be? You are justifying suicides, murders, abortions, death penalties, and many other things here. Are you are an anti-natalist? Yep, you are. I am an anti-natalist. And you're right that anti-natalism is the logical consequence of this line of thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:43:30 GMT
You are justifying suicides, murders, abortions, death penalties, and many other things here. Are you are an anti-natalist? Yep, you are. I am an anti-natalist. And you're right that anti-natalism is the logical consequence of this line of thought. With that kind of mentality you won't even enjoy heaven if sent there and if it exists. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:47:18 GMT
I am an anti-natalist. And you're right that anti-natalism is the logical consequence of this line of thought. With that kind of mentality you won't even enjoy heaven if sent there and if it exists. I doubt that it does exist, but oblivion (the state from which all of us were wrenched without our consent and to which we will hopefully all return one day) is just as good. My point is that for a murderer to be a murderer in the first place is punishment enough. Because people who commit serious crimes are probably living in a very unpleasant mental state that was not of their own design. And whatever your standards are, nobody deserves the 'punishment' of a bad start in life, bad genes, bad parents, traumatising childhood experiences, etc. All of those things are what makes a human into a murderer, a child molester, a tyrant, and what have you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:53:30 GMT
With that kind of mentality you won't even enjoy heaven if sent there and if it exists. I doubt that it does exist, but oblivion (the state from which all of us were wrenched without our consent and to which we will hopefully all return one day) is just as good. My point is that for a murderer to be a murderer in the first place is punishment enough. Because people who commit serious crimes are probably living in a very unpleasant mental state that was not of their own design. And whatever your standards are, nobody deserves the 'punishment' of a bad start in life, bad genes, bad parents, traumatising childhood experiences, etc. All of those things are what makes a human into a murderer, a child molester, a tyrant, and what have you. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and forget everything and just enjoy life. Stop being so negative and enjoy this Enjoy existence. Enjoy life. It is very temporary. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 14:59:56 GMT
With that kind of mentality you won't even enjoy heaven if sent there and if it exists. I doubt that it does exist, but oblivion (the state from which all of us were wrenched without our consent and to which we will hopefully all return one day) is just as good. My point is that for a murderer to be a murderer in the first place is punishment enough. Because people who commit serious crimes are probably living in a very unpleasant mental state that was not of their own design. And whatever your standards are, nobody deserves the 'punishment' of a bad start in life, bad genes, bad parents, traumatising childhood experiences, etc. All of those things are what makes a human into a murderer, a child molester, a tyrant, and what have you. I understand that oblivion is better than existence. I understand your point. But it still doesn't justify a murderer enjoying a fanciful lifestyle outside prison in this life. We all exist and we just cannot kill ourselves, unless you are suicidal. Since we exist, and since murderers are sent to jails, hypothetically if heaven exists then the bad guys dont deserve to live in there. Also, if heaven exists, they probably will have the option to have everything about them changed including their memories their genes their parents their experiences. All is hypothetical of course. We can all daydream. |
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Post by Vegas on Feb 23, 2017 15:22:15 GMT
I'm pretty sure that THAT isn't the case.
To me, a mildly miserable life has got to beat NON-EXISTENCE.
As far as Heaven is concerned:
Biblibilibically speaking... That's just the place where God and his angelic horde live.. It's not really the promised designation for Mankind.
Now as far as "justice for a good life"....
If God doesn't exist.. There really is none. We all just return to oblivion in a universe that will eventually go cold and die... with nothing ever having any meaning.
If God does exist... It's possible that He has a reward for living a good life in the face of adversity and hardship, generally described as "eternal life" in a state of contentment and happiness... but that hasn't happened, yet... SO:
"Fairness" isn't promised in this life in either scenario... It's just whether you deem being a selfish dick and getting all that you can from this life, even at the expense of others is worth the risk of deemed unworthy if the other case of God actually existing is true.
Sure.. People can decide to be good people without the motivation of fear of being outcast by God.. but...If God doesn't exist.. then, that doesn't really amount to anything, either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 15:28:34 GMT
I doubt that it does exist, but oblivion (the state from which all of us were wrenched without our consent and to which we will hopefully all return one day) is just as good. My point is that for a murderer to be a murderer in the first place is punishment enough. Because people who commit serious crimes are probably living in a very unpleasant mental state that was not of their own design. And whatever your standards are, nobody deserves the 'punishment' of a bad start in life, bad genes, bad parents, traumatising childhood experiences, etc. All of those things are what makes a human into a murderer, a child molester, a tyrant, and what have you. I understand that oblivion is better than existence. I understand your point. But it still doesn't justify a murderer enjoying a fanciful lifestyle outside prison in this life. We all exist and we just cannot kill ourselves, unless you are suicidal. Since we exist, and since murderers are sent to jails, hypothetically if heaven exists then the bad guys dont deserve to live in there. Also, if heaven exists, they probably will have the option to have everything about them changed including their memories their genes their parents their experiences. All is hypothetical of course. We can all daydream. The "bad guys" are only bad because the design is flawed. Nobody sat around in an ethereal antechamber and decided that they wanted to be born into a life where they would be a psychopath, incapable of feeling empathy or compassion for other people, and struggling with murderous rages which they will eventually stop being able to control. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 15:37:33 GMT
I'm pretty sure that THAT isn't the case. To me, a mildly miserable life has got to beat NON-EXISTENCE. [/quote]I don't see how you figure that out. Someone who is non-existent doesn't feel deprived of any of the pleasures that life might have to offer them. Whereas someone who is miserable to any extent is being burdened by harms to which they could not consent. You seem to be approaching this from the mindset that we 'experience' non-existence. But we don't experience it and nor do we have any cravings for experience or meaning in this state. There is no justice in either case, but non-existence for all would at least be a leveller, meaning nobody is unduly punished for something for which they weren't ultimately to blame. Even if you are 'a selfish dick', you're only a selfish dick because of a flaw in God's initial design. Nobody chooses to be a selfish dick (it's not an emotionally healthy way to be), factors beyond their conscious control shape them into that. They don't choose which thoughts to think before they think them; they bear witness to the consciousness which is constructed by their brain. In any case, if God did not create you in the first place, then there would be no need for the reward. So the deity would be setting you up with the risk of harm and failure for a reward that really wasn't necessary to begin with. And once you die and lose consciousness, you lose any craving for the reward. The reward itself only has as much value as you ascribe to it...so once you've ceased to ascribe any value to the reward, it no longer has any value. Atheism does contend that life has only as much meaning as one ascribes to it, although that need not be a bleak outlook. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 15:44:39 GMT
I understand that oblivion is better than existence. I understand your point. But it still doesn't justify a murderer enjoying a fanciful lifestyle outside prison in this life. We all exist and we just cannot kill ourselves, unless you are suicidal. Since we exist, and since murderers are sent to jails, hypothetically if heaven exists then the bad guys dont deserve to live in there. Also, if heaven exists, they probably will have the option to have everything about them changed including their memories their genes their parents their experiences. All is hypothetical of course. We can all daydream. The "bad guys" are only bad because the design is flawed. Nobody sat around in an ethereal antechamber and decided that they wanted to be born into a life where they would be a psychopath, incapable of feeling empathy or compassion for other people, and struggling with murderous rages which they will eventually stop being able to control. Maybe the test here is to see how we behave if we are given a bad hand. And how people like Trump will burn in hell because he had all the privileges in the world and instead of helping other people out he spent his whole life on himself and now trying to perpetrate evil all over the world for his own selfish pleasure and gain. Or maybe there is reincarnation and bad people with bad genes had lived a previous life as a beautiful and rich person with a great life. now he is currently living a bad one. then he will live a good one again, or perhaps live as a plant or an ant. who knows ? I enjoy existence sometimes. At others, i hate it. |
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 23, 2017 15:59:42 GMT
Non-consciousness would be a neutral position, neither positive nor negative. Consciousness can be positive or negative. You seem to be rephrasing things to say consciousness will always be a sliding scale of negativity - that negative feelings are negative but positive feelings merely mitigate negativity rather than add anything themselves. On your second point I agree. Everlasting bliss seems incompatible with enduring personal identity. Non-consciousness cannot be turned into some form of torture, and therefore I believe that it is morally unacceptable to put someone at risk of harm for a gain which is both ephemeral and unnecessary. The positive is unnecessary, because nothing would have been lost and there would be no deprivation in the event that consciousness were not created to begin with. Whether you are a deity creating sentient life, or a parent procreating. It's an asymmetry which you haven't addressed. Because I don't believe there is an asymmetry. If you are not born then you miss out on all negativity, but then you also miss out on all positivity. You say the latter doesn't matter because you are not conscious of being deprived of anything. On that we agree. However I think also the former doesn't matter by the same token - you don't appreciate what you were spared. You can only get round that by defining positivity as anti-negativity (thereby saying that non-birth has no negative component while birth ranges from negative to neutral) - I think that's a bit of a semantic trick, relying more on a pessimistic perspective than cool logic.
As I said in our previous conversation, why does it make sense to say it's a good thing that the unicorn massacre of 1986 never happened due to unicorns not existing, but it doesn't make sense to say it's a bad thing the unicorn ball of 1993 never happened due to unicorns not existing?
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Post by general313 on Feb 23, 2017 16:30:17 GMT
We agree that life is unfair, but you've ignored the fact that non-existence is just as good as paradise... That would only be true if the sum of experience is a zero sum of pleasure and pain. But is that likely the case? I think it's more like sensory fatigue, where prolonged exposure to a particular sensation results in reduced stimulation, but obviously it still isn't a zero sum situation. I can stare at a pattern for a while and it starts to fade out, but that doesn't mean that being blind is just as good as being able to see. |
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Post by Vegas on Feb 23, 2017 17:05:41 GMT
I'm pretty sure most of them actually do.
Exactly..
They don't feel anything.
They don't exist.
How the hell do you see that as an improvement over a mere mediocre existence?
(I mean.. I'm not referring to a person who is in constant pain or suffering... But.. even then that's kind of debatable)
I've been non-existent before... I'm not really looking forward to returning to it.
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