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Post by Sarge on Jan 7, 2023 4:08:18 GMT
Please continue, I'm happy to be corrected, but I would like more specifics. Sure. Whilst Isaiah 7:14 in the original Hebrew uses the word “almah” which literally means “a young girl” <irrelevant content removed> The Septuagint translates the Hebrew word Almah in Isaiah 7:14, meaning a young woman, as “Parthenos”, which primarily means virgin in the Greek. You said what I said with different words, almah was mistranslated. Alma means young woman. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah and is used a bunch of times in the Hebrew text so if they meant virgin, they would have written virgin but that's not what they meant. You confirmed I was right.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 7, 2023 5:02:44 GMT
lowtacks86 Seeing as the resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity, let’s start with that. Hmm, the resurrection is problematic considering the accounts don't match and the stories have obviously been embellished. The soul wasn't part of Christianity yet so the resurrection story was necessary to bring Christ back to life and make people believe he could do the same for them at some future time. Really, once the Greek concept of soul was adopted, the resurrection wasn't necessary, but it makes a great story.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 7, 2023 6:37:14 GMT
lowtacks86 Seeing as the resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity, let’s start with that. If you’re genuinely enquiring here’s a good video that goes over the evidence. Jesus Christ (lame pun intended) I'm not gonna watch an entire 45 minute video. Can you at summarize some of the arguments in the video or tell me a time stamp I should forward to? You’re not actually interested in the evidence, are you? Otherwise why else would you repeatedly demand evidence and then refuse to entertain it when it’s provided for you in-depth? You don’t even need to watch the whole video in one go. No offence but you’ve already admitted what I’d suspected of you from the beginning, namely your rejection of Christianity stems from a personal bias against the possibility of it being true.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 7, 2023 7:10:56 GMT
Sure. Whilst Isaiah 7:14 in the original Hebrew uses the word “almah” which literally means “a young girl” <irrelevant content removed> The Septuagint translates the Hebrew word Almah in Isaiah 7:14, meaning a young woman, as “Parthenos”, which primarily means virgin in the Greek. You said what I said with different words, almah was mistranslated. Alma means young woman. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah and is used a bunch of times in the Hebrew text so if they meant virgin, they would have written virgin but that's not what they meant. You confirmed I was right. Bro, what’s happened here is you‘ve evaded parts of my post because they’re too inconvenient for your argument. How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? Who was this person described as being “God with us”? Btw betulah does not unambiguously mean virgin. In fact there is no single word in ancient Hebrew that unequivocally means “virgin”. You haven’t addressed my point about the Septuagint neither. Remember it was written by Jews long before Christianity, why did they understand alma to mean virgin by translating it with the Greek parthenos, which literally means “virgin”, if that’s not the intended meaning of the verse? They certainly wouldn’t have had any theological agenda regarding Jesus. So no Matthew never mistranslated anything. He simply quoted the Greek Septuagint, which translated alma as virgin because the context pointed in that direction.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 8:31:31 GMT
You said what I said with different words, almah was mistranslated. Alma means young woman. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah and is used a bunch of times in the Hebrew text so if they meant virgin, they would have written virgin but that's not what they meant. You confirmed I was right. Bro, what’s happened here is you‘ve evaded parts of my post because they’re too inconvenient for your argument. How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? Who was this person described as being “God with us”? Btw betulah does not unambiguously mean virgin. In fact there is no single word in ancient Hebrew that unequivocally means “virgin”. You haven’t addressed my point about the Septuagint neither. Remember it was written by Jews long before Christianity, why did they understand alma to mean virgin by translating it with the Greek parthenos, which literally means “virgin”, if that’s not the intended meaning of the verse? They certainly wouldn’t have had any theological agenda regarding Jesus. So no Matthew never mistranslated anything. He simply quoted the Greek Septuagint, which translated alma as virgin because the context pointed in that direction. How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? The word in the oldest extant version of Isaiah is almah which in almost all cases mean young woman, though she can be a virgin, it is not necessary for an "almah" be one. Add in there is no other mention in any of the Hebrew texts of the Messiah being born of a virgin, so there is no reason to think God changed his mind about his Messiah plans and then made an oblique reference to any Jewish man being to a virgin birth, a common trope in pagan religions though. There are three different writers for Isaiah, and they all used the running motif of the Suffering Servant who is not a prophecy for the Messiah and never intended as such. Also, "Isaiah" is not considered a prophet in Judaism. The book though was popular in the 1st century BC among the Jewish masses suffering under the yoke of their Greek overlords. The Essenes took pains to the hide several versions in their possession, so they were feeling the heat for the big wheels at the Temple. Later, the pagans latched onto these old Hebrew texts searching for conformation they had the Anointed One who was not advocating for the destruction of the empire, and he could compete with any of the other Greek and Roman gods as far as working miracles.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 8:55:46 GMT
Bro, what’s happened here is you‘ve evaded parts of my post because they’re too inconvenient for your argument. How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? Who was this person described as being “God with us”? Btw betulah does not unambiguously mean virgin. In fact there is no single word in ancient Hebrew that unequivocally means “virgin”. You haven’t addressed my point about the Septuagint neither. Remember it was written by Jews long before Christianity, why did they understand alma to mean virgin by translating it with the Greek parthenos, which literally means “virgin”, if that’s not the intended meaning of the verse? They certainly wouldn’t have had any theological agenda regarding Jesus. So no Matthew never mistranslated anything. He simply quoted the Greek Septuagint, which translated alma as virgin because the context pointed in that direction. How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? The word in the oldest extant version of Isaiah is almah which in almost all cases mean young woman, though she can be a virgin, it is not necessary for an "almah" be one. Add in there is no other mention in any of the Hebrew texts of the Messiah being born of a virgin, so there is no reason to think God changed his mind about his Messiah plans and then made an oblique reference to any Jewish man being to a virgin birth, a common trope in pagan religions though. There are three different writers for Isaiah, and they all used the running motif of the Suffering Servant who is not a prophecy for the Messiah and never intended as such. Also, "Isaiah" is not considered a prophet in Judaism. The book though was popular in the 1st century BC among the Jewish masses suffering under the yoke of their Greek overlords. The Essenes took pains to the hide several versions in their possession, so they were feeling the heat for the big wheels at the Temple. Later, the pagans latched onto these old Hebrew texts searching for conformation they had the Anointed One who was not advocating for the destruction of the empire, and he could compete with any of the other Greek and Roman gods as far as working miracles. Yeah. Not only whatever you just said, but... begotten (adj.): (of offspring) generated by procreation for the slow... procreation (n): The sexual activity of conceiving and bearing offspring
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 9:06:59 GMT
How can the context of a passage possibly be irrelevant? What is this supernatural sign given by God of a young woman conceiving a baby? The word in the oldest extant version of Isaiah is almah which in almost all cases mean young woman, though she can be a virgin, it is not necessary for an "almah" be one. Add in there is no other mention in any of the Hebrew texts of the Messiah being born of a virgin, so there is no reason to think God changed his mind about his Messiah plans and then made an oblique reference to any Jewish man being to a virgin birth, a common trope in pagan religions though. There are three different writers for Isaiah, and they all used the running motif of the Suffering Servant who is not a prophecy for the Messiah and never intended as such. Also, "Isaiah" is not considered a prophet in Judaism. The book though was popular in the 1st century BC among the Jewish masses suffering under the yoke of their Greek overlords. The Essenes took pains to the hide several versions in their possession, so they were feeling the heat for the big wheels at the Temple. Later, the pagans latched onto these old Hebrew texts searching for conformation they had the Anointed One who was not advocating for the destruction of the empire, and he could compete with any of the other Greek and Roman gods as far as working miracles. Yeah. Not only whatever you just said, but... begotten (adj.): (of offspring) generated by procreation for the slow... procreation (n): The sexual activity of conceiving and bearing offspring Is that from the original 8th century Hebrew?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 9:37:48 GMT
Yeah. Not only whatever you just said, but... begotten (adj.): (of offspring) generated by procreation for the slow... procreation (n): The sexual activity of conceiving and bearing offspring Is that from the original 8th century Hebrew? Would you happen to have an etymological breakdown of the word "begotten"? Maybe it really means something else, I dunno.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 9:43:54 GMT
Is that from the original 8th century Hebrew? Would you happen to have an etymological breakdown of the word "begotten"? Maybe it really means something else, I dunno. It doesn't matter what English word means. What is the oldest extant version of Isaiah. You'll need to see what that word meant in the original before applying a cognate in modern English. The early church, after the Jews were purged, wanted a god they could appeal to for good fortune and protection for the Evil Eye. That's about all the gods were good for. The original Jesus was not a god, so the church leaders had to make him one in order to win more converts. Being born of a virgin is a sure sign in paganism and the Isaiah passage was as close as they were going to get. And it is the only place in the entire Old Testament where this is remotely inferred and it's not even talking about the Messiah, but the Suffering Servant literary character.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 9:51:19 GMT
You'll need to see what that word meant in the original before applying a cognate in modern English. If that isn't what I just asked you for, it's bedtime for me.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 10:12:18 GMT
You'll need to see what that word meant in the original before applying a cognate in modern English. If that isn't what I just asked you for, it's bedtime for me. Would you happen to have an etymological breakdown of the word "begotten"? Maybe it really means something else, I dunno.I don't think ancient Hebrew would have an established etymology history, so I assumed you were referring to the English...and I have a deep faith that you did too and now being the faithful jerk that you are. And I'm at work, so...if I tell you where I work, how fast before you try to get me fired? Is my faith in your low character misplaced?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 10:35:12 GMT
If that isn't what I just asked you for, it's bedtime for me. Would you happen to have an etymological breakdown of the word "begotten"? Maybe it really means something else, I dunno.I don't think ancient Hebrew would have an established etymology history, so I assumed you were referring to the English...and I have a deep faith that you did too and now being the faithful jerk that you are. And I'm at work, so...if I tell you where I work, how fast before you try to get me fired? Is my faith in your low character misplaced? Holy smokes, man. WTF is wrong with you? If you don't want to break down "begotten" like you did with "virgin," then don't. I don't really care, but it would probably do you so some good to get a grip and calm down, especially if you're at work.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 10:51:56 GMT
Would you happen to have an etymological breakdown of the word "begotten"? Maybe it really means something else, I dunno.I don't think ancient Hebrew would have an established etymology history, so I assumed you were referring to the English...and I have a deep faith that you did too and now being the faithful jerk that you are. And I'm at work, so...if I tell you where I work, how fast before you try to get me fired? Is my faith in your low character misplaced? Holy smokes, man. WTF is wrong with you? If you don't want to break down "begotten" like you did with "virgin," then don't. I don't really care, but it would probably do you so some good to get a grip and calm down, especially if you're at work. What is begotten the original 1st century AD Hebrew and then I will tell you, fart smeller. But I have no idea where to find that word online. Why don't you do some of the heavy lifting for a change. Here is a copy of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is the oldest extant copy in existence. It is Chapter 53. Point out the words "almah" and "begotten." I am always calm, buddy. I've put fires out on this shift and found dead residents. One guy, bless his heart, was as stiff as roadkill. Fell in the middle of the night and the way he was half on/half off his bed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 11:05:01 GMT
Holy smokes, man. WTF is wrong with you? If you don't want to break down "begotten" like you did with "virgin," then don't. I don't really care, but it would probably do you so some good to get a grip and calm down, especially if you're at work. What is begotten the original 1st century AD Hebrew and then I will tell you, fart smeller. But I have no idea where to find that word online. Why don't you do some of the heavy lifting for a change. Here is a copy of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is the oldest extant copy in existence. It is Chapter 53. Point out the words "almah" and "begotten." I am always calm, buddy. I've put fires out on this shift and found dead residents. One guy, bless his heart, was as stiff as roadkill. Fell in the middle of the night and the way he was half on/half off his bed. I just thought you might have had one handy. Not a big deal. Probably wouldn't have helped you anyway, especially if it turned out to mean something other than having sex. Yes, yes, I know. You're always calm. Except when you aren't. Like when you're "virtually in tears" or blinding yourself with some bizarre hatred for me. I'm going to back away now...nice and slow...no sudden movements...
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 11:29:11 GMT
What is begotten the original 1st century AD Hebrew and then I will tell you, fart smeller. But I have no idea where to find that word online. Why don't you do some of the heavy lifting for a change. Here is a copy of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is the oldest extant copy in existence. It is Chapter 53. Point out the words "almah" and "begotten." I am always calm, buddy. I've put fires out on this shift and found dead residents. One guy, bless his heart, was as stiff as roadkill. Fell in the middle of the night and the way he was half on/half off his bed. I just thought you might have had one handy. Not a big deal. Probably wouldn't have helped you anyway, especially if it turned out to mean something other than having sex. Yes, yes, I know. You're always calm. Except when you aren't. Like when you're "virtually in tears" or blinding yourself with some bizarre hatred for me. I'm going to back away now...nice and slow...no sudden movements... Now you're acting like it's no big deal after badgering me for about it. This is the same fucking argument we, and all of us, have over and over and over. For centuries, this same argument has been going on and will never be resolved so long as folks like believing in gods, goddess, and other mythical things. Reality can't compete. And I do not hate you. I have given you my home phone number...you've never called...so obviously I don't hate you. Far from it. A person's politics or religion are no barrier for me liking a person. I'm also do not hold grudges. That's a true waste of time. But I don't suffer fools gladly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 11:43:31 GMT
Now you're acting like it's no big deal after badgering me for about it. This is the same fucking argument we, and all of us, have over and over and over. For centuries, this same argument has been going on and will never be resolved so long as folks like believing in gods, goddess, and other mythical things. Reality can't compete. And I do not hate you. I have given you my home phone number...you've never called...so obviously I don't hate you. Far from it. A person's politics or religion are no barrier for me liking a person. I'm also do not hold grudges. That's a true waste of time. But I don't suffer fools gladly. There was no badgering, and it wasn't a big deal. You want to block me, then you want me to call you, then you lie and call me names, then you... Oh wait. Is all this venom you spit at me because I didn't call you? If it's any consolation, you're not the first on this forum to give me their number, but I've only ever called one. Two if text counts. Why do you always gotta get so personal?
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 11:54:05 GMT
Now you're acting like it's no big deal after badgering me for about it. This is the same fucking argument we, and all of us, have over and over and over. For centuries, this same argument has been going on and will never be resolved so long as folks like believing in gods, goddess, and other mythical things. Reality can't compete. And I do not hate you. I have given you my home phone number...you've never called...so obviously I don't hate you. Far from it. A person's politics or religion are no barrier for me liking a person. I'm also do not hold grudges. That's a true waste of time. But I don't suffer fools gladly. There was no badgering, and it wasn't a big deal. You want to block me, then you want me to call you, then you lie and call me names, then you... Oh wait. Is all this venom you spit at me because I didn't call you? If it's any consolation, you're not the first on this forum to give me their number, but I've only ever called one. Two if text counts. Why do you always gotta get so personal? When folks connect and make it personal, it makes understanding each other better and we don't jump to so many angry conclusions. And kiddo, you started this chatroom with its heavy political and religion board, and this is how politics and religion conversations roll. If we all agreed, there'd be no point in these chatrooms.
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strawdawg
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Post by strawdawg on Jan 7, 2023 12:05:51 GMT
Being a Christian is often believing what you can't see, it's called FAITH.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 12:08:35 GMT
There was no badgering, and it wasn't a big deal. You want to block me, then you want me to call you, then you lie and call me names, then you... Oh wait. Is all this venom you spit at me because I didn't call you? If it's any consolation, you're not the first on this forum to give me their number, but I've only ever called one. Two if text counts. Why do you always gotta get so personal? When folks connect and make it personal, it makes understanding each other better and we don't jump to so many angry conclusions. And kiddo, you started this chatroom with its heavy political and religion board, and this is how politics and religion conversations roll. If we all agreed, there'd be no point in these chatrooms. If we all acted like you do, this would be Filmboards. I don't believe you're unable to discuss things without all the childish insults and personal attacks. You go from "scientific proof" and etymological essays to "everybody hates you" and "faithful jerk" faster than I can say a priori. I'm now convinced you just argue for the sake of argument and that you enjoy blaming others for the stupid bullshit you bring into these discussions. Thanks for the chats.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 7, 2023 12:16:34 GMT
When folks connect and make it personal, it makes understanding each other better and we don't jump to so many angry conclusions. And kiddo, you started this chatroom with its heavy political and religion board, and this is how politics and religion conversations roll. If we all agreed, there'd be no point in these chatrooms. If we all acted like you do, this would be Filmboards. I don't believe you're unable to discuss things without all the childish insults and personal attacks. You go from "scientific proof" and etymological essays to "everybody hates you" and "faithful jerk" faster than I can say a priori. I'm now convinced you just argue for the sake of argument and that you enjoy blaming others for the stupid bullshit you bring into these discussions. Thanks for the chats. I can passive/aggressive as well as you. So does mean you’re putting me on ignore?
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