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Post by kuatorises on Jan 6, 2023 3:36:40 GMT
This movie is my least favorite of that trilogy, but I never agreed with that criticism. I honestly don't think the argument has a lot of merit. It's a weak argument.
1. Obi Wan and Yoda ran and hid. Christ, Han runs all the time and he's the cool one.
People are allowed to be scared, angry, whatever. No one is the same throughout their lives. Luke got spooked and did the same thing several other characters in the franchise did.
2. Luke gave up on Dagobah. He failed multiple times during training. He couldn't pass the tests and Yoda salvaged his ship as a result. This came after he dropped Yoda. He failed at the cave too. He was supposed to leave his weapons behind because a Jedi wouldn't "need them".
3. ROTJ-era Luke sucks. He was my favorite character, but even as a kid he rubbed me the wrong way at that point in his life. He's wooden and robotic. I hated him saving Vader, but that's a tale for another day. No personality at all. Luke is an emotional guy in the first two movies. He's been mocked for it for years by fans. Called whiny in some circles.
TLJ brought his personality back. He shows emotion and a personality again. Gone is the robot from ROTJ, Mando, and BOBF. Give me TLJ all day every day over robot boy. Is he the same person he was when he was 20? Of course not, no one is, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
4. Luke's display of power in TLJ is waaaaaaaaaaaaay cooler than season 2 of Mando. That was kinda cliche. It's just a guy mowing down lots of baddies. There's nothing special or charismatic about that. An astral projection and obviously an extremely skilled duelist? Now that's impressive.
5. Hamill is damn near 70. If you thought he was going to be flipping and jumping around, that's simply not realistic. They have to work with what they've got. The alternative is CGI Luke ala Dooku and Palpatine flying through the air. Nobody wants that.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jan 6, 2023 20:03:22 GMT
The overall characterization of Luke in TLJ doesn’t bother me much anymore. It’s not the direction I was hoping for, but it’s fine.
The treatment of Luke that was so bad is that they keep him on the island for the entire thing. I’ve said this a million times on this board, but one more time can’t hurt: imagine how disappointed you’d be if someone told you before TFA came out that Luke will be in self-exile on an island the entire trilogy and never actually leaves?
He doesn’t get to go on one last adventure with Han or Leia. He doesn’t get to hop around the galaxy, planet-to-planet again. He doesn’t even get a final lightsaber duel.
Pretty fn lame if you ask me.
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 7, 2023 14:15:35 GMT
The overall characterization of Luke in TLJ doesn’t bother me much anymore. It’s not the direction I was hoping for, but it’s fine. The treatment of Luke that was so bad is that they keep him on the island for the entire thing. I’ve said this a million times on this board, but one more time can’t hurt: imagine how disappointed you’d be if someone told you before TFA came out that Luke will be in self-exile on an island the entire trilogy and never actually leaves? He doesn’t get to go on one last adventure with Han or Leia. He doesn’t get to hop around the galaxy, planet-to-planet again. He doesn’t even get a final lightsaber duel.Pretty fn lame if you ask me.
Not exactly accurate. We do get to see how good he was with a lightsaber. And it was goooooood.
Him never leaving the island is fair. I can agree with that. If given the choice, I would definitely prefer that. As much as I like TFA, him not (really) being in that sucked. I would have preferred him showing up to help in the final battle.
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Post by jammer81386 on Jan 7, 2023 21:44:03 GMT
I'm quite tired of complaining about The Last Jedi and am very much ready to move on, but I will make a few points.
1) Yes, those characters ran away on occasion, but it was for the purpose of living to fight another day. whereas Luke ran away to give up on everything he had fought for and die in obscurity.
2) Yes he failed, but he didn't give up.
3) Yes, Luke did become more wooden (though I would call that stoic and self controlled) Which is all part of him growing up and becoming the hero he was meant to be. Luke in the end was supposed to be the embodiment of hope.(hell, it's in the title of Ep IV), thus it is reasonable to call character derailment when he was turn into such a surly despondent recluse in EP VIII.
4) Agree to disagree.
5) But all that dodging he was doing in his duel with Kylo is realistic for a 70 year old?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 8, 2023 20:21:31 GMT
I'm quite tired of complaining about The Last Jedi and am very much ready to move on, but I will make a few points. Agreed. But it doesn’t change the fact that that there were legitimate flaws/faults/failures with the treatment of Luke’s character in TLJ. And the concise points you listed are some of the most valid. And hard to argue against. I would also add this point: Luke Skywalker trying to kill Ben Solo (Kylo Ren) in his sleep because of a dark dream about him is the most ridiculous writing trope in the entire saga/franchise! And it’s not just because it’s so out of character for any Jedi. Not just because it’s so out of character for Luke who was willing to believe that Vader (his father) could be turned back to the Light. And we all know Vader’s history of evil and blood guilt. Even if you factor in Luke’s (early on) sulking, negativity, and overconfidence it’s still ridiculous. But it goes even beyond that. The fact is that any Force user who would attempt to murder a child would clearly go over to the Darkside. There’s no question about this.Think of any SW character that was involved in killing or attempting to kill children… and you will see a character that is firmly on the Darkside. Anakin killed younglings. He did it simply to grow more powerful in the Darkside. And it probably had more to do with him going past the point of no return than cutting off Mace Windu’s hand and putting Palpatine in power. Darth Maul… was willing to kill Anakin on his way to fight Qui-Gon in the Tattoine desert. Qui-Gon had to tell Anakin to duck/get down to avoid Maul - Darkside. Palpatine was willing to have Force sensitive children killed if he couldn’t convert them to the Darkside. Yeah. When Rey arrived on Achto and gave Luke his lightsaber, he should’ve turned around with yellow eyes. He should’ve been trying to teach her the Darkside. Or even trying to attack her.
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Post by Archelaus on Jan 8, 2023 21:19:58 GMT
1. Obi-Wan and Yoda hid for a reason because the Empire had grown too powerful and to wait for Luke to mature. Luke fleed, but Han Solo implied he was searching for the first Jedi Temple, presumably to find answers on how to defeat the First Order. Then, Luke states in The Last Jedi that he came to Ach-Too to die and cut himself from the Force. It felt out of character for Luke to abandon everything including his loved ones. I most preferred The Force Awakens' explanation. 2. My answer is the same as jammer81386. 3. I never had a problem with Luke's characterization in Return of the Jedi. I wouldn't call him wooden, but more reserved and self-controlled. Luke's emotions is essential to his character arc, but it worked against him in The Empire Strikes Back. He nearly allowed Vader to manipulate his emotions again in Return of the Jedi, but realized his actions before it was too late. To me, it was a sign of strength for his character and he avoided the actions of his father. 4. I would like to have Luke done some actual lightsaber combat in The Last Jedi. We did get that in a way and I grew to like it because it's the best defensive strategy ever done by a Jedi in the series. Projecting an image of yourself across the galaxy and fooling your enemy at face value is an incredible feat. Remember Yoda stated: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack."
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Post by Oh My Aching Ackbar-Raddus! on Jan 9, 2023 4:09:15 GMT
Luke dying from “force exhaustion” was (also) stupid. There’s no reason he should’ve died from concentrating on the force really hard.
They used the same thing as a cause for Leia’s death. It’s not a real thing in the Star Wars lore. And it makes no sense. They made that crap up!
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 10, 2023 16:48:30 GMT
Luke dying from “force exhaustion” was (also) stupid. There’s no reason he should’ve died from concentrating on the force really hard. They used the same thing as a cause for Leia’s death. It’s not a real thing in the Star Wars lore. And it makes no sense. They made that crap up!
Padme died of sadness, but overexertion. That's dumb.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jan 10, 2023 17:54:12 GMT
It seems to me like the real reason people have been upset about Luke’s character in TLJ is because they wanted Old Man Luke to be a badass action hero.
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 10, 2023 18:11:24 GMT
I'm quite tired of complaining about The Last Jedi and am very much ready to move on, but I will make a few points. 1) Yes, those characters ran away on occasion, but it was for the purpose of living to fight another day. whereas Luke ran away to give up on everything he had fought for and die in obscurity. 2) Yes he failed, but he didn't give up. 3) Yes, Luke did become more wooden (though I would call that stoic and self controlled) Which is all part of him growing up and becoming the hero he was meant to be. Luke in the end was supposed to be the embodiment of hope.(hell, it's in the title of Ep IV), thus it is reasonable to call character derailment when he was turn into such a surly despondent recluse in EP VIII. 4) Agree to disagree. 5) But all that dodging he was doing in his duel with Kylo is realistic for a 70 year old?
Yoda was not thinking about the future here, he was running for his life:
Yes he (Luke) did give up. He was never able to get his X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda did, after Luke failed and walked away. Literally gave up and walked away.
And who cares that he did (then or any other point in his life)? He wasn't that idealistic naive kid he was in A New Hope. So what if he gets angry, scared, quits something, or shows any kind of emotion. That's what people do.
Windu was going to kill Palpatine in cold blood (instead of arresting him):
Which do you find more realistic? This:
or this:
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 10, 2023 18:17:47 GMT
It seems to me like the real reason people have been upset about Luke’s character in TLJ is because they wanted Old Man Luke to be a badass action hero. He was:
People were just upset because it wasn't something like this:
The irony is if they used this magic trick in The Last Jedi, after he wasn't only in The Force Awakens, the outrage would be immeasurable. Could you imagine? His big return wouldn't even be Hamill, it's be someone with his face motion captured onto them. People would lose their minds.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Jan 10, 2023 20:54:44 GMT
It's also worth noting:
- Luke never tried to kill Ben. He considered it for a split second and immediately felt shame. There's a difference.
- While Luke despaired, he did ultimately come through and help the Resistance.
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Post by jammer81386 on Jan 11, 2023 0:50:12 GMT
I'm quite tired of complaining about The Last Jedi and am very much ready to move on, but I will make a few points. 1) Yes, those characters ran away on occasion, but it was for the purpose of living to fight another day. whereas Luke ran away to give up on everything he had fought for and die in obscurity. 2) Yes he failed, but he didn't give up. 3) Yes, Luke did become more wooden (though I would call that stoic and self controlled) Which is all part of him growing up and becoming the hero he was meant to be. Luke in the end was supposed to be the embodiment of hope.(hell, it's in the title of Ep IV), thus it is reasonable to call character derailment when he was turn into such a surly despondent recluse in EP VIII. 4) Agree to disagree. 5) But all that dodging he was doing in his duel with Kylo is realistic for a 70 year old?
Yoda was not thinking about the future here, he was running for his life:
Yes he (Luke) did give up. He was never able to get his X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda did, after Luke failed and walked away. Literally gave up and walked away.
And who cares that he did (then or any other point in his life)? He wasn't that idealistic naive kid he was in A New Hope. So what if he gets angry, scared, quits something, or shows any kind of emotion. That's what people do.
Windu was going to kill Palpatine in cold blood (instead of arresting him):
Which do you find more realistic? This:
or this:
--Running away to fight another day. Take note that towards the end of Ep III, Yoda, Kenobi, and Organa develop a plan to keep the Jedi alive and the twins safe until the time is right to return. --After which he learns a lesson about believing and failing. Even still, he only gave up on this one task, he didn't give up on the rebellion or his friends. --I reiterate my point that Luke as meant to be the embodiment of hope, thus turning the character into a despairing recluse is character derailment. Windu attempting to kill Palpatine was the final nail in the coffin of the Jedi as it convinced Anakin there was no difference between the jedi and sith. Remember Palpatine also said "he's to dangerous to be kept alive" earlier in the film. throughout the trilogy we have seen the Jedi doing shady things. Thus it was not something that came out of the blue. --Within the "world" of star wars I find all of that plausible.
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 11, 2023 1:31:35 GMT
Yoda was not thinking about the future here, he was running for his life:
Yes he (Luke) did give up. He was never able to get his X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda did, after Luke failed and walked away. Literally gave up and walked away.
And who cares that he did (then or any other point in his life)? He wasn't that idealistic naive kid he was in A New Hope. So what if he gets angry, scared, quits something, or shows any kind of emotion. That's what people do.
Windu was going to kill Palpatine in cold blood (instead of arresting him):
Which do you find more realistic? This:
or this:
--Running away to fight another day. Take note that towards the end of Ep III, Yoda, Kenobi, and Organa develop a plan to keep the Jedi alive and the twins safe until the time is right to return. --After which he learns a lesson about believing and failing. Even still, he only gave up on this one task, he didn't give up on the rebellion or his friends. --I reiterate my point that Luke as meant to be the embodiment of hope, thus turning the character into a despairing recluse is character derailment. Windu attempting to kill Palpatine was the final nail in the coffin of the Jedi as it convinced Anakin there was no difference between the jedi and sith. Remember Palpatine also said "he's to dangerous to be kept alive" earlier in the film. throughout the trilogy we have seen the Jedi doing shady things. Thus it was not something that came out of the blue. --Within the "world" of star wars I find all of that plausible. Oh, stop it. Yoda was not thinking of the future at that exact moment and you know it. He was scared and trying to survive, not trying to plan a rebellion.
And I reiterate it's an invalid criticism. Expecting someone to be the same person at (approximately) 70 as they are 19 is ridiculous. That has no merit at all.
Yoda and Obi Wan can ride and hide for 30 years and hope they might be able to do something one day, but Luke can't contemplate doing something for 3 seconds. That's such a disingenuous argument.
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Post by jammer81386 on Jan 11, 2023 1:35:38 GMT
--Running away to fight another day. Take note that towards the end of Ep III, Yoda, Kenobi, and Organa develop a plan to keep the Jedi alive and the twins safe until the time is right to return. --After which he learns a lesson about believing and failing. Even still, he only gave up on this one task, he didn't give up on the rebellion or his friends. --I reiterate my point that Luke as meant to be the embodiment of hope, thus turning the character into a despairing recluse is character derailment. Windu attempting to kill Palpatine was the final nail in the coffin of the Jedi as it convinced Anakin there was no difference between the jedi and sith. Remember Palpatine also said "he's to dangerous to be kept alive" earlier in the film. throughout the trilogy we have seen the Jedi doing shady things. Thus it was not something that came out of the blue. --Within the "world" of star wars I find all of that plausible. Oh, stop it. Yoda was not thinking of the future at that exact moment and you know it. He was scared and trying to survive, not trying to plan a rebellion.
And I reiterate it's an invalid criticism. Expecting someone to be the same person at (approximately) 70 as they are 19 is ridiculous. That has no merit at all.
Yoda and Obi Wan can ride and hide for 30 years and hope they might be able to do something one day, but Luke can't contemplate doing something for 3 seconds. That's such a disingenuous argument.
--At the exact moment he was think of survival. But afterwards he didn't give up, he set up a plan to fight back. Unlike Luke in TLJ. --The exact same, of course not. The exact opposite, that is where there is a problem. --3 seconds?! he was on that island, wanting to die for months or even years.
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Post by kuatorises on Jan 11, 2023 14:22:20 GMT
It's also worth noting: - Luke never tried to kill Ben. He considered it for a split second and immediately felt shame. There's a difference. - While Luke despaired, he did ultimately come through and help the Resistance. Me reading this:
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