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Post by faustus5 on Jan 12, 2023 11:08:31 GMT
You're the one trying to make a case that accusations of "woke-ism" are legitimate and not a sign of a problem with the people throwing the word around. You can provide the examples of progressiveism being taken to extreme lengths and articulate exactly what is wrong the the choices such content creators have made. So, no examples. Yep, no examples from you, the one who thinks this is an issue.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 12, 2023 12:51:44 GMT
^I’m not aware of any definition of woke as being the opposite of bigotry. Gay and trans people can be anti- woke, for example. Racially diverse people too. Clearly I don't use the term enough to understand what it means then. I can live with that.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 12, 2023 13:13:40 GMT
The term "woke" has been abused so much that it spawned the "you made it political" meme.
It's also pretty damming that anything that features women, poc and LGBTQ+ as the lead of something or just a character in whatever piece of media gets called woke. Very rarely does anything with a straight white male lead get called woke.
Hell it doesn't even have to be a gay, female or even a black character to be considered woke anymore. Recently if something doesn't feature a attractive woman it can be called woke.
I still think that the youtubers who make "anti-woke" content are grifters who are pandering to a certain demographic who want to hear about how whatever boogeyman is destroying western entertainment with whatever they hate/fear.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 15:10:59 GMT
The term "woke" has been abused so much that it spawned the "you made it political" meme. It's also pretty damming that anything that features women, poc and LGBTQ+ as the lead of something or just a character in whatever piece of media gets called woke. Very rarely does anything with a straight white male lead get called woke. Hell it doesn't even have to be a gay, female or even a black character to be considered woke anymore. Recently if something doesn't feature a attractive woman it can be called woke. I still think that the youtubers who make "anti-woke" content are grifters who are pandering to a certain demographic who want to hear about how whatever boogeyman is destroying western entertainment with whatever they hate/fear.Some of them might but not all. Some of them seem genuinely angry that many franchises have seen so many woeful entries of late. Often it is partly due to woke concepts dictating production. I like diversity casting for example but when it contributes to a bad product then it is worthy of criticism. And something is hurting ‘western entertainment’. But I think it’s due to a combination of factors. Woke politics is only one factor.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 15:21:10 GMT
I'd believe that was an accurate description of "woke" were it not for the fact that most of the folks who get that hurled at themselves as an insult aren't doing anything a reasonable person would regard as "extreme". Unless, of course, you think it is extreme to have women, people of color, or non-straight people as main characters in your art, which is really all it takes to be accused of "woke-ism" today. What would and what wouldn't you consider to be an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? No, having women, people of color, and non-straight people as main characters in art does not make the media woke - No one is calling the Cate Blanchett film Tár woke, they didn't call the Jamie Foxx led film Day Shift woke, either, and when it comes to action-adventure cinema, Aliens and Terminator 2 are still held in very high regard and are not considered to be woke. When they are diversity hires shunted into an existing script to its detriment (like with Obiwan Kenobi), then it is woke. Or when Dr Strange was removed from Wandavision because the producers didn’t want a white man mansplaining to Wanda, then that IS woke. I like diverse casting. But I think it has been prevalent since the 70s. Certainly it was by the 80s and 90s. And with changing demographics the landscape will change even more. But it would be best if it was done organically. The public tires of it otherwise. Check the like/ dislike ratio of the new Scooby Doo series ‘Velma’.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 15:51:05 GMT
And the kids who do understand it come out better, as there will be those who do. Which is better than leaving them in the dark and doing nothing. It's trial and error, but it's better than "don't bother".
Simply seeing it and getting confused isn't going to hurt them.
If only five out of 50 viewers under the age of four actually are able to understand the message the content is trying to present and their parents feel the media is appropriate to view, then I am afraid that the producers of the program did not do a particularly good job and come across as quite incompetent in presenting media for their demographic. Children will eventually have to learn such things, but its preferable that they do when they're older, like in middle school. Under the age of four, their idea of the world is too simplistic, and they require general education like reading and writing first long before learning an adult's romantic preferences or gender of choice. Are you a parent? If so, may I ask what particular issues do you feel isn't right for a child of certain age to learn about? Trial and Error, doesn't mean that they're wrong to want to educate kids about how there's more to the world. It's not about teaching them what's romantic, just that these things DO exist and kids shouldn't feel strange when they see them and accept the normalcy of it. They keep at it, they'll figure out ways of doing their show in ways more kids can understand.
Better than doing nothing.
What they shouldn't learn? At that age, violence is the big thing I think they should be kept from. Watching gory and violent things.
IE, I wouldn't show a 4 year old the 1980s version of "The Fly".
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 15:52:27 GMT
If they don't understand just yet, then there's no harm done. If they DO understand it already, then it's fine. So either way, no harm done.
Learning about these things never has hurt anyone.
And I'm quite sure that if Ripley and Sarah Connor debuted today, they'd be called Woke. It's how deranged the usage has become over some imaginary "Culture War" that doesn't actually exist.
And regarding this, no. Neither Ripley or Connor, if they debuted today in the same way as they were when created, wouldn't be classified as woke and neither would their respective films, because they actually have well-defined personalities, traits, and are shown to be complex characters that aren't really asking to be idolized by anyone (Sarah Connor for example wasn't a very good mother, put her son in danger, and would have killed a man if not her son and the T-800's interference). Neither Ripley nor Sarah were very well-defined or complex in their first movies, and Captain Dallas getting killed so Ripley can take command would have been seen as an "SJW" move and "A blow against the Patriarchy" by the modern day paranoids. Same with Reese dying in the first Terminator film. That's how oversensitive the Injustice Warriors are.
So yeah, they'd be called SJW propaganda today.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 15:53:46 GMT
I didn’t want to get into a discussion of the meaning of wokeness but for me it is synonymous with duplicity. It isn’t simply defined as altruism or even expressions of far-left values. It’s more concerned with the virtue signalling which is insincere, where the motive is not the cause they claim to be championing. The unattractive guy who pontificates on women’s rights thinking it will endear himself to them. That’s an example. And typical of such woke people is hypocrisy. The ones who support BLM will be the first to call the cops because there are a group of blacks in the park. "Virtue Signaling" doesn't exist, it's a boogeyman word made up to shame anyone with a hint of a progressive attitude. To make people think that if you have any progressive thoughts, they're bad people and the only good thoughts are anti-progress.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 15:56:19 GMT
What would and what wouldn't you consider to be an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? No, having women, people of color, and non-straight people as main characters in art does not make the media woke - No one is calling the Cate Blanchett film Tár woke, they didn't call the Jamie Foxx led film Day Shift woke, either, and when it comes to action-adventure cinema, Aliens and Terminator 2 are still held in very high regard and are not considered to be woke. When they are diversity hires shunted into an existing script to its detriment (like with Obiwan Kenobi), then it is woke. Or when Dr Strange was removed from Wandavision because the producers didn’t want a white man mansplaining to Wanda, then that IS woke. I like diverse casting. But I think it has been prevalent since the 70s. Certainly it was by the 80s and 90s. And with changing demographics the landscape will change even more. But it would be best if it was done organically. The public tires of it otherwise. Check the like/ dislike ratio of the new Scooby Doo series ‘Velma’. Wanting the female lead to be able to end her story on her own is simply good writing. Having someone else show up to do it for her is bad writing. People complained about how Spider-Man was made into a sidekick to Iron Man, having Dr Strange show up and do everything for Wanda would have been the same thing and dulled the story.
The people complaining about the Velma series are more up in arms about her coming out as a Lesbian.
As for "Diversity Hires", back in the old days most actors got their jobs by using insider connections or family influence. I don't see anyone complaining about that.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 16:30:42 GMT
I didn’t want to get into a discussion of the meaning of wokeness but for me it is synonymous with duplicity. It isn’t simply defined as altruism or even expressions of far-left values. It’s more concerned with the virtue signalling which is insincere, where the motive is not the cause they claim to be championing. The unattractive guy who pontificates on women’s rights thinking it will endear himself to them. That’s an example. And typical of such woke people is hypocrisy. The ones who support BLM will be the first to call the cops because there are a group of blacks in the park. "Virtue Signaling" doesn't exist, it's a boogeyman word made up to shame anyone with a hint of a progressive attitude. To make people think that if you have any progressive thoughts, they're bad people and the only good thoughts are anti-progress. ‘Virtue signalling’ exists unless you think that every virtuous expression is genuine.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 16:34:42 GMT
"Virtue Signaling" doesn't exist, it's a boogeyman word made up to shame anyone with a hint of a progressive attitude. To make people think that if you have any progressive thoughts, they're bad people and the only good thoughts are anti-progress. ‘Virtue signalling’ exists unless you think that every virtuous expression is genuine. A boogeyman word like "Virtue Signaling" says that every virtuous expression is fake. That's why it's a boogeyman word.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 16:41:49 GMT
When they are diversity hires shunted into an existing script to its detriment (like with Obiwan Kenobi), then it is woke. Or when Dr Strange was removed from Wandavision because the producers didn’t want a white man mansplaining to Wanda, then that IS woke. I like diverse casting. But I think it has been prevalent since the 70s. Certainly it was by the 80s and 90s. And with changing demographics the landscape will change even more. But it would be best if it was done organically. The public tires of it otherwise. Check the like/ dislike ratio of the new Scooby Doo series ‘Velma’. Wanting the female lead to be able to end her story on her own is simply good writing. Having someone else show up to do it for her is bad writing. People complained about how Spider-Man was made into a sidekick to Iron Man, having Dr Strange show up and do everything for Wanda would have been the same thing and dulled the story.
The people complaining about the Velma series are more up in arms about her coming out as a Lesbian.
As for "Diversity Hires", back in the old days most actors got their jobs by using insider connections or family influence. I don't see anyone complaining about that.
I don’t think Wandavision was well-written myself. But I’m glad that you enjoyed it. Anyway, here’s what Kevin Feige had to say. Now that is virtue signalling my pal. In this case he’s using racism to oppose ‘privilege’. He knows it’s immoral (unless he’s a dimwit), but he’ll do it anyway because it works to his own personal advantage: that is, it helps his image (or so he thinks).
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 12, 2023 16:43:47 GMT
‘Virtue signalling’ exists unless you think that every virtuous expression is genuine. A boogeyman word like "Virtue Signaling" says that every virtuous expression is fake. That's why it's a boogeyman word. When the virtues are genuine and your reason for expressing them are righteous, it isn’t virtue signalling.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 12, 2023 19:15:28 GMT
If they don't understand just yet, then there's no harm done. If they DO understand it already, then it's fine. So either way, no harm done.
Learning about these things never has hurt anyone.
And I'm quite sure that if Ripley and Sarah Connor debuted today, they'd be called Woke. It's how deranged the usage has become over some imaginary "Culture War" that doesn't actually exist.
And regarding this, no. Neither Ripley or Connor, if they debuted today in the same way as they were when created, wouldn't be classified as woke and neither would their respective films, because they actually have well-defined personalities, traits, and are shown to be complex characters that aren't really asking to be idolized by anyone (Sarah Connor for example wasn't a very good mother, put her son in danger, and would have killed a man if not her son and the T-800's interference). I'd like to add that it really wouldn't have been possible to debut Ripley and Connor today, at least not while retaining the exact same characteristics they did originally. Just take Sarah Connor: * Falls in love with some random, violent stranger who kidnaps her in order to protect her * Constantly needs saving from Reece * In T2 is depicted as being mentally unstable * Is shown being a bad mom * Had to admit that it was wrong for her to be trigger-happy as she was Sarah was a strong female character but she was also ridiculously flawed. I'm having a hard time seeing a female character treated like that in a modern Hollywood movie. Pretty much the only mainstream production you'll see female characters like that nowadays is GoT or House of the Dragon.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 12, 2023 19:27:07 GMT
The term "woke" has been abused so much that it spawned the "you made it political" meme. It's also pretty damming that anything that features women, poc and LGBTQ+ as the lead of something or just a character in whatever piece of media gets called woke. Very rarely does anything with a straight white male lead get called woke. Hell it doesn't even have to be a gay, female or even a black character to be considered woke anymore. Recently if something doesn't feature a attractive woman it can be called woke. I still think that the youtubers who make "anti-woke" content are grifters who are pandering to a certain demographic who want to hear about how whatever boogeyman is destroying western entertainment with whatever they hate/fear. I put "woke" in the same basket as words like SJW, bigot, fascist, feminism, toxic-masculinity, racist, sexist, mansplaining, sexual objectification, etc. All of these words used to have some useful meaning but they've been hijacked by activists (from all sides of the political spectrum) and weaponized so that they now barely resemble what they used to mean. Now they're just treated as slurs, buzzwords and triggerwords wielded like bludgeons by either group.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 12, 2023 21:28:38 GMT
Yep, no examples from you, the one who thinks this is an issue. No, I requested examples from you. What would you say is an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? Some would say the actions of groups such as ANTIFA are instances of progressivism taken to the extreme.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 21:30:09 GMT
Wanting the female lead to be able to end her story on her own is simply good writing. Having someone else show up to do it for her is bad writing. People complained about how Spider-Man was made into a sidekick to Iron Man, having Dr Strange show up and do everything for Wanda would have been the same thing and dulled the story.
The people complaining about the Velma series are more up in arms about her coming out as a Lesbian.
As for "Diversity Hires", back in the old days most actors got their jobs by using insider connections or family influence. I don't see anyone complaining about that.
I don’t think Wandavision was well-written myself. But I’m glad that you enjoyed it. Anyway, here’s what Kevin Feige had to say. Now that is virtue signalling my pal. In this case he’s using racism to oppose ‘privilege’. He knows it’s immoral (unless he’s a dimwit), but he’ll do it anyway because it works to his own personal advantage: that is, it helps his image (or so he thinks). That's "The main character should handle their own stuff, not need the guest star to come in at the end to do it for them".
It's no different from all the complaints that MCU Spidey was too tied to Tony Stark. Wanda should be able to do her own stuff without needing Strange to come out of nowhere to fix it all for her. That's bad writing.
You're just getting mad because of particular words Feige used, not the real meaning behind them.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 12, 2023 21:30:42 GMT
A boogeyman word like "Virtue Signaling" says that every virtuous expression is fake. That's why it's a boogeyman word. When the virtues are genuine and your reason for expressing them are righteous, it isn’t virtue signalling. Nope, it's a term used to shame anyone and everyone who has even a single progressive thought. No one is spared.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 12, 2023 21:50:57 GMT
Yep, no examples from you, the one who thinks this is an issue. No, I requested examples from you. What would you say is an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? Some would say the actions of groups such as ANTIFA are instances of progressivism taken to the extreme. You aren't getting examples from me.
You are the one who thinks this is an issue worthy of being concerned about in popular culture, and I am not.
So you can provide specific examples from the real world and explain to me why I should start caring about them. And please stick to the actual subject of this thread, which concerns content in superhero films and TV, not street protests.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 13, 2023 3:18:07 GMT
No, I requested examples from you. What would you say is an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? Some would say the actions of groups such as ANTIFA are instances of progressivism taken to the extreme. You aren't getting examples from me.
You are the one who thinks this is an issue worthy of being concerned about in popular culture, and I am not.
So you can provide specific examples from the real world and explain to me why I should start caring about them. And please stick to the actual subject of this thread, which concerns content in superhero films and TV, not street protests.
You want an example of progressivism being taken to the extreme? How about the fact that studios won’t cast POC as villains? Only white people can be villains.
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