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Post by Marv on Jan 13, 2023 6:39:14 GMT
You aren't getting examples from me.
You are the one who thinks this is an issue worthy of being concerned about in popular culture, and I am not.
So you can provide specific examples from the real world and explain to me why I should start caring about them. And please stick to the actual subject of this thread, which concerns content in superhero films and TV, not street protests.
You want an example of progressivism being taken to the extreme? How about the fact that studios won’t cast POC as villains? Only white people can be villains. Isn't Jonathan Majors a POC? Because he's Kang in the upcoming Antman 3 film. Kang is the bad guy.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 13, 2023 8:29:22 GMT
You want an example of progressivism being taken to the extreme? How about the fact that studios won’t cast POC as villains? Only white people can be villains. Isn't Jonathan Majors a POC? Because he's Kang in the upcoming Antman 3 film. Kang is the bad guy. He’ll probably turn good.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 13, 2023 9:25:58 GMT
No, I requested examples from you. What would you say is an example of progressivism being taken to extreme lengths? Some would say the actions of groups such as ANTIFA are instances of progressivism taken to the extreme. You aren't getting examples from me.
You are the one who thinks this is an issue worthy of being concerned about in popular culture, and I am not.
So you can provide specific examples from the real world and explain to me why I should start caring about them. And please stick to the actual subject of this thread, which concerns content in superhero films and TV, not street protests.
I feel it is a reasonable question to ask, since you don't see an issue with what people consider to be woke in entertainment - what would and what wouldn't be progressivism taken to an extreme length for you in media?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 13, 2023 9:32:37 GMT
If only five out of 50 viewers under the age of four actually are able to understand the message the content is trying to present and their parents feel the media is appropriate to view, then I am afraid that the producers of the program did not do a particularly good job and come across as quite incompetent in presenting media for their demographic. Children will eventually have to learn such things, but its preferable that they do when they're older, like in middle school. Under the age of four, their idea of the world is too simplistic, and they require general education like reading and writing first long before learning an adult's romantic preferences or gender of choice. Are you a parent? If so, may I ask what particular issues do you feel isn't right for a child of certain age to learn about? Trial and Error, doesn't mean that they're wrong to want to educate kids about how there's more to the world. It's not about teaching them what's romantic, just that these things DO exist and kids shouldn't feel strange when they see them and accept the normalcy of it. They keep at it, they'll figure out ways of doing their show in ways more kids can understand.
Better than doing nothing.
What they shouldn't learn? At that age, violence is the big thing I think they should be kept from. Watching gory and violent things.
IE, I wouldn't show a 4 year old the 1980s version of "The Fly".
Children will eventually learn about those in the LGBTQ+ community when they mature and start junior high school, but at four and younger most will have no idea what the sequence from Blue's Clues is trying to get across and their parents probably don't want to have this conversation till they're older. Maybe the focus of programming for preschoolers should be reading, writing, and memorization instead?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 13, 2023 9:40:40 GMT
And regarding this, no. Neither Ripley or Connor, if they debuted today in the same way as they were when created, wouldn't be classified as woke and neither would their respective films, because they actually have well-defined personalities, traits, and are shown to be complex characters that aren't really asking to be idolized by anyone (Sarah Connor for example wasn't a very good mother, put her son in danger, and would have killed a man if not her son and the T-800's interference). Neither Ripley nor Sarah were very well-defined or complex in their first movies, and Captain Dallas getting killed so Ripley can take command would have been seen as an "SJW" move and "A blow against the Patriarchy" by the modern day paranoids. Same with Reese dying in the first Terminator film. That's how oversensitive the Injustice Warriors are.
So yeah, they'd be called SJW propaganda today.
Not very likely if the filmmakers kept the same screenplays. Ripley isn't asking to take command in Alien, one by one her crewmates get eliminated by the Xenomorph and she is forced to survive, and she does but at a cost (as its sequel Aliens illustrates). In The Terminator, Sarah Connor hooks up with Kyle Reese, a violent stranger from the future, and has to be rescued constantly till the end of the film, in the sequel she is a mentally unstable woman who wasn't the best parent and had to admit her faults. As Skaathar points out, no way would such a character be seen as an SJW's dream character.
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Post by faustus5 on Jan 13, 2023 11:22:42 GMT
You aren't getting examples from me.
You are the one who thinks this is an issue worthy of being concerned about in popular culture, and I am not.
So you can provide specific examples from the real world and explain to me why I should start caring about them. And please stick to the actual subject of this thread, which concerns content in superhero films and TV, not street protests.
I feel it is a reasonable question to ask, since you don't see an issue with what people consider to be woke in entertainment - what would and what wouldn't be progressivism taken to an extreme length for you in media? What part of "I'm not going to give you examples" did you not understand?
You are the one who thinks this is an issue in popular culture. I do not. I think it is nonsense made up by insecure right wingers or outright racists/misogynists.
If something is bothering you in the world of superhero movies and TV shows, why won't you articulate what exactly it is with specific examples?
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Post by Vassaggo on Jan 13, 2023 13:10:40 GMT
Isn't Jonathan Majors a POC? Because he's Kang in the upcoming Antman 3 film. Kang is the bad guy. He’ll probably turn good. Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2023 13:38:50 GMT
Trial and Error, doesn't mean that they're wrong to want to educate kids about how there's more to the world. It's not about teaching them what's romantic, just that these things DO exist and kids shouldn't feel strange when they see them and accept the normalcy of it. They keep at it, they'll figure out ways of doing their show in ways more kids can understand.
Better than doing nothing.
What they shouldn't learn? At that age, violence is the big thing I think they should be kept from. Watching gory and violent things.
IE, I wouldn't show a 4 year old the 1980s version of "The Fly".
Children will eventually learn about those in the LGBTQ+ community when they mature and start junior high school, but at four and younger most will have no idea what the sequence from Blue's Clues is trying to get across and their parents probably don't want to have this conversation till they're older. Maybe the focus of programming for preschoolers should be reading, writing, and memorization instead? They're going to see same-sex couples when they go out and walk around anywhere, seeing how folks aren't scared to hide themselves anymore. Being told "sometimes men like other men and ladies like other ladies" isn't going to destroy their minds.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2023 13:40:52 GMT
Neither Ripley nor Sarah were very well-defined or complex in their first movies, and Captain Dallas getting killed so Ripley can take command would have been seen as an "SJW" move and "A blow against the Patriarchy" by the modern day paranoids. Same with Reese dying in the first Terminator film. That's how oversensitive the Injustice Warriors are.
So yeah, they'd be called SJW propaganda today.
Not very likely if the filmmakers kept the same screenplays. Ripley isn't asking to take command in Alien, one by one her crewmates get eliminated by the Xenomorph and she is forced to survive, and she does but at a cost (as its sequel Aliens illustrates). In The Terminator, Sarah Connor hooks up with Kyle Reese, a violent stranger from the future, and has to be rescued constantly till the end of the film, in the sequel she is a mentally unstable woman who wasn't the best parent and had to admit her faults. As Skaathar points out, no way would such a character be seen as an SJW's dream character. But the point remains that she disagrees with Dallas (an SJW thing), she doesn't trust Ash (an SJW thing) and ends up the defacto boss when the straight white male lead dies (an SJW thing).
And as you stated, Sarah is little more than a horror film Final Girl character in the first Terminator. There's a reason her T2 self is brought up more than her T1 self, it's because her T1 self isn't much of anything.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 13, 2023 13:47:25 GMT
He’ll probably turn good. Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows Killmonger’s death was shown to be sad. It was the west which corrupted him. Many of the ones you listed were shown to have sympathetic motives.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2023 13:48:01 GMT
Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows Killmonger’s death was shown to be sad. It was the west which corrupted him. That still doesn't mean he wasn't a villain.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 13, 2023 17:11:50 GMT
He’ll probably turn good. Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows Yeah, there's quite a number of POC villains. Heck, middle-easterners are the staple villains in a lot of Hollywood movies. I think the better argument to make, at least as far as Disney is concerned, is that of late any villain that's POC or female is usually depicted as a sympathetic or misunderstood villain. Very seldom a full-on villain. Wanda Namor WenWu Killmonger Echo Iron Maiden Ghost Maleficent Cruella The sorceress from Mulan Etc. I think the only pure female villain I recall from recent times in Disney movie was Hela. And it was so refreshing.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 13, 2023 17:35:25 GMT
Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows Killmonger’s death was shown to be sad. It was the west which corrupted him. Many of the ones you listed were shown to have sympathetic motives. So? Thanos is the biggest bad there is in the MCU, and even he had a sympathetic motive. It's called depth of character. Mustache twirlers are boring no matter what color they are. Vassaggo destroyed your argument, give it up already.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 13, 2023 18:02:35 GMT
Killmonger’s death was shown to be sad. It was the west which corrupted him. Many of the ones you listed were shown to have sympathetic motives. So? Thanos is the biggest bad there is in the MCU, and even he had a sympathetic motive. It's called depth of character. Mustache twirlers are boring no matter what color they are. Vassaggo destroyed your argument, give it up already. Well I think the actor who made the claim would know something about it. And evil characters can still be multi-dimensional. There are complex characters who are simply evil. I don’t think Killmonger deserved the sympathy that he got.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 13, 2023 18:05:42 GMT
Off the top of my head... Chukwudi Iwuji - High Evolutionary - GotG vol 3 Tony Leung Chiu-wai - Xu Wenwu - Shang Chi Tenoch Huerta - Namor - Black Panther 2 Michael B Jordan - Killmonger - Black Panther 1 Hannah John-Kamen - Ghost - Antman 2 Djimon Hounsou - Korath the Pursuer - Gotg vol 1, Captain Marvel Dennis Carnegie - Kurse - Thor 2 Bokeem Woodbine - Shocker - Spiderman Homecoming Not to mention a bunch in Marvel TV shows Yeah, there's quite a number of POC villains. Heck, middle-easterners are the staple villains in a lot of Hollywood movies. I think the better argument to make, at least as far as Disney is concerned, is that of late any villain that's POC or female is usually depicted as a sympathetic or misunderstood villain. Very seldom a full-on villain. Wanda Namor WenWu Killmonger Echo Iron Maiden Ghost Maleficent Cruella The sorceress from Mulan Etc. I think the only pure female villain I recall from recent times in Disney movie was Hela. And it was so refreshing. Yes, you destroyed ReyKahuka’s argument. He should give it up already.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 13, 2023 18:37:43 GMT
So? Thanos is the biggest bad there is in the MCU, and even he had a sympathetic motive. It's called depth of character. Mustache twirlers are boring no matter what color they are. Vassaggo destroyed your argument, give it up already. Well I think the actor who made the claim would know something about it. And evil characters can still be multi-dimensional. There are complex characters who are simply evil. I don’t think Killmonger deserved the sympathy that he got. Then he's been proven wrong, too. You don't have to think Killmonger deserves sympathy, that doesn't change the fact that you were 100% wrong. Agreed, there are complex characters who are simply evil, like many of the characters played by Giancarlo Esposito. It's such a bizarre thing to fixate on. "Hollywood needs to do a better job of showing black people can be bad." And then you try to defend evil black characters because you don't want to be wrong! "He'll probably turn good." "He was seen as too sympathetic." It's embarrassing.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 13, 2023 18:42:40 GMT
Yeah, there's quite a number of POC villains. Heck, middle-easterners are the staple villains in a lot of Hollywood movies. I think the better argument to make, at least as far as Disney is concerned, is that of late any villain that's POC or female is usually depicted as a sympathetic or misunderstood villain. Very seldom a full-on villain. Wanda Namor WenWu Killmonger Echo Iron Maiden Ghost Maleficent Cruella The sorceress from Mulan Etc. I think the only pure female villain I recall from recent times in Disney movie was Hela. And it was so refreshing. That has become an issue with villains. They've been doing that with everyone for the last 25 years. They did it with Darth Vader in the prequel trilogy.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 13, 2023 20:19:14 GMT
Yeah, there's quite a number of POC villains. Heck, middle-easterners are the staple villains in a lot of Hollywood movies. I think the better argument to make, at least as far as Disney is concerned, is that of late any villain that's POC or female is usually depicted as a sympathetic or misunderstood villain. Very seldom a full-on villain. Wanda Namor WenWu Killmonger Echo Iron Maiden Ghost Maleficent Cruella The sorceress from Mulan Etc. I think the only pure female villain I recall from recent times in Disney movie was Hela. And it was so refreshing. That has become an issue with villains. They've been doing that with everyone for the last 25 years. They did it with Darth Vader in the prequel trilogy. Oh yeah I agree with that, and to be honest I personally prefer a sympathetic villain anyway since they're more interesting. A lot of the MCU villains are sympathetic villains, dating as early back as Loki in the first Thor movie. That said, there does seem to be a pattern with the MCU where, whenever they do have villains who are megalomaniacs, psychopaths, douchebags or just plain evil... they're generally depicted as white men. Justin Hammer Yon-Rogg Obadiah Stane Kaecilius Dreykov Yellowjacket Red Skull Alexander Pierce Arthur Harrow Kingpin etc. You get my drift. They generally don't depict POC and female villains in the same streak of pure villainy. Other than the aforementioned Hela of course. As for Disney, I can't quite recall the last time they depicted a POC or woman as a truly despicable villain like Ursula or Gaston or Captain Hook. Guess we'll see with that new Little Mermaid movie.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 13, 2023 20:43:12 GMT
That has become an issue with villains. They've been doing that with everyone for the last 25 years. They did it with Darth Vader in the prequel trilogy. Oh yeah I agree with that, and to be honest I personally prefer a sympathetic villain anyway since they're more interesting. A lot of the MCU villains are sympathetic villains, dating as early back as Loki in the first Thor movie. That said, there does seem to be a pattern with the MCU where, whenever they do have villains who are megalomaniacs, psychopaths, douchebags or just plain evil... they're generally depicted as white men. Justin Hammer Yon-Rogg Obadiah Stane Kaecilius Dreykov Yellowjacket Red Skull Alexander Pierce Arthur Harrow Kingpin etc. You get my drift. They generally don't depict POC and female villains in the same streak of pure villainy. Other than the aforementioned Hela of course. As for Disney, I can't quite recall the last time they depicted a POC or woman as a truly despicable villain like Ursula or Gaston or Captain Hook. Guess we'll see with that new Little Mermaid movie. To be fair, Dreykov and Red Skull wouldn't make a ton of sense as POC. Stane employed middle eastern henchmen without any depth to them, Yon-Rogg had henchmen who were people of color (women too) with the same issue. I think it speaks more to what each individual script wants from its villains, I don't see why it has to be about race or gender. The guy who turned on She-Hulk was Asian, he was just a douche. I can't comment on Disney, I haven't seen a ton of Disney movies from any era to know the difference. I think it's more about trying to reimagine villains for the sake of it rather than some political agenda. It isn't always necessary, and it doesn't always work, but I don't think the point is, "Women can't be bad."
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 13, 2023 21:55:19 GMT
Oh yeah I agree with that, and to be honest I personally prefer a sympathetic villain anyway since they're more interesting. A lot of the MCU villains are sympathetic villains, dating as early back as Loki in the first Thor movie. That said, there does seem to be a pattern with the MCU where, whenever they do have villains who are megalomaniacs, psychopaths, douchebags or just plain evil... they're generally depicted as white men. Justin Hammer Yon-Rogg Obadiah Stane Kaecilius Dreykov Yellowjacket Red Skull Alexander Pierce Arthur Harrow Kingpin etc. You get my drift. They generally don't depict POC and female villains in the same streak of pure villainy. Other than the aforementioned Hela of course. As for Disney, I can't quite recall the last time they depicted a POC or woman as a truly despicable villain like Ursula or Gaston or Captain Hook. Guess we'll see with that new Little Mermaid movie. To be fair, Dreykov and Red Skull wouldn't make a ton of sense as POC. Stane employed middle eastern henchmen without any depth to them, Yon-Rogg had henchmen who were people of color (women too) with the same issue. I think it speaks more to what each individual script wants from its villains, I don't see why it has to be about race or gender. The guy who turned on She-Hulk was Asian, he was just a douche. I can't comment on Disney, I haven't seen a ton of Disney movies from any era to know the difference. I think it's more about trying to reimagine villains for the sake of it rather than some political agenda. It isn't always necessary, and it doesn't always work, but I don't think the point is, "Women can't be bad." Well I wasn't really including henchmen in my assessment. Henchmen, by virtue of them having minimal development AND having to report to someone higher up, very rarely get to be depicted as a truly despicable character. For example Kurse (played by a POC) was part of plan to wreck the 9 realms, yet in the end the main person responsible for that was Malekith. In your example the Asian guy who manipulated She-Hulk might have been a douchebag, but he was still following plans set by Todd Phelps (a white guy). Black Widow beat up a number of other widows, but in the end they were all being controlled by Dreykov. Ironman beat up a bunch of middle-eastern henchmen, but in the end none of them were developed enough for us to truly know or care about them. The point I'm trying to make is this: When an MCU villain is specifically developed to be hated on by the audience, someone depicted as a despicable character without any scapegoats or excuses, almost always it will be a white man. POCs and especially female villains are almost always developed in a way to garner a bit more sympathy and empathy from audiences. I'm not saying whether or not this is due to a political agenda. I'm simply pointing out an observation.
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