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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 13, 2023 4:24:58 GMT
There is more likely option, that Paul influenced the content of the Gospels. I would take no objection to that. After all, Luke the Evangelist was a companion of Paul. The writer of the Gospel of Luke doesn’t identify himself nor claims to be the companion of Paul. Luke the Physician may be a different person, though it’s possible he’s the same. In the Acts, Luke directly contradicts a lot of Paul’s firsthand accounts, so it’s unlikely he Paul’s friend wrote the gospel or Acts. I like Luke’s matter of fact opening: Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, 3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received. I wonder what happened to those many eyewitness narratives? |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 13, 2023 5:03:11 GMT
There is more likely option, that Paul influenced the content of the Gospels. I would take no objection to that. After all, Luke the Evangelist was a companion of Paul. Paul mentioned Luke, but outside of Paul's 7 letters, none of the New Testament authors are known with certainty. It's a little disturbing when you think about it because the Gospels had been copied again and again with many changes and mistakes, none of the originals survive, so who knows what really happened. |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 13, 2023 5:08:48 GMT
There is more likely option, that Paul influenced the content of the Gospels. The cult of Orpheus (a dying and rebirth god), a morality reforming offshoot of the cult of Bacchus/Dionysus, seems to have influenced the early still forming church. They were probably a lot of first converts since like the Christians, they were shunned by the mainstream pagans for rejecting the other gods, as well as Bacchus himself, in favor of Apollo and his Mysteries. I know there were profound Greek influences on Christianity, the afterlife, the soul, redemption, but I don't know the details. |
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 13, 2023 5:16:00 GMT
I would take no objection to that. After all, Luke the Evangelist was a companion of Paul. Paul mentioned Luke, but outside of Paul's 7 letters, none of the New Testament authors are known with certainty. It's a little disturbing when you think about it because the Gospels had been copied again and again with many changes and mistakes, none of the originals survive, so who knows what really happened. There was no one recording what was happening. Who knows how many of the first Christian generation actually heard Jesus speak. Since it was spreading by the time of Paul, most probably only heard what the witnesses recounted. |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 13, 2023 5:26:55 GMT
Paul mentioned Luke, but outside of Paul's 7 letters, none of the New Testament authors are known with certainty. It's a little disturbing when you think about it because the Gospels had been copied again and again with many changes and mistakes, none of the originals survive, so who knows what really happened. There was no one recording what was happening. Who knows how many of the first Christian generation actually heard Jesus speak. Since it was spreading by the time of Paul, most probably only heard what the witnesses recounted. I heard that he walked on water! Yeah and he fed 500 with 2 baskets of bread! No, it was 5000 and 2 loaves of bread!! And he cured cancer! What's cancer? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2023 15:24:08 GMT
Nobody got a sound argument how the Old Testament Yahweh, and the New Testament God are remotely compatible  OT Yahweh was one of many deities... NT God is a sole deity. OT Yahweh was a self obsessed psychopathic genocidal maniac... NT God a totally different entity. Jesus had been drinking from the same fountain as Buddha. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 13, 2023 15:29:48 GMT
Nobody got a sound argument how the Old Testament Yahweh, and the New Testament God are remotely compatible OT Yahweh was one of many deities... NT God is a sole deity. OT Yahweh was a self obsessed psychopathic genocidal maniac... NT God a totally different entity. Jesus had been drinking from the same fountain as Buddha. I could argue it, but I'm not going to. It's a waste of time. You believe whatever you want to believe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2023 15:31:32 GMT
Nobody got a sound argument how the Old Testament Yahweh, and the New Testament God are remotely compatible OT Yahweh was one of many deities... NT God is a sole deity. OT Yahweh was a self obsessed psychopathic genocidal maniac... NT God a totally different entity. Jesus had been drinking from the same fountain as Buddha. I could argue it, but I'm not going to. It's a waste of time. You believe whatever you want to believe. Try me. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 13, 2023 15:41:33 GMT
I could argue it, but I'm not going to. It's a waste of time. You believe whatever you want to believe. Try me. Soon I'm going to have to drive several miles to another town, put some money in the bank, and purchase some supplies. Then I'll be driving to a different town several miles away and pick up a member of my family who doesn't have a ride and bring him back here. Believe whatever you want to believe, Fr. I don't have time today to engage in silliness like this. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2023 15:49:01 GMT
Soon I'm going to have to drive several miles to another town, put some money in the bank, and purchase some supplies. Then I'll be driving to a different town several miles away and pick up a member of my family who doesn't have a ride and bring him back here. Believe whatever you want to believe, Fr. I don't have time today to engage in silliness like this. That's you bottled it... Anyone else?  |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 13, 2023 17:39:38 GMT
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 13, 2023 18:23:32 GMT
Just got back, money is deposited, and supplies are bought. I saw that my nephew called, and it wasn't hard to guess what that was about. No psychic powers involved, just simple inductive reasoning. When the weather turns lousy like it is now, he doesn't want to hang around here. He wants me to come get him on Sunday instead. You know, Sunday, the day that Catholics want Protestants to think is the Sabbath but it really isn't. Yeah, that one. So, I'm uncommitted for the rest of the day, and I just thought I'd drop in to see if Fr. Jack found anyone to give him an argument yet.  |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 14, 2023 0:13:51 GMT
They basically are variations on a theme: either didn't read the Bible or misunderstood what you read, then make apples to oranges comparisons. I'm curious if you read them before posting? But here is an apples to apples comparison from the NKJV. Numbers 15:32-36, a man is found gathering sticks on the Sabbath, to build a fire for his family. Moses asks Yahweh what to do. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” John 8, Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught cheating on her husband and reminded Jesus that according to Moses' (Yahweh) she should be stoned to death. Jesus answered, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” Both sinners were Jews, both violated God's law, completely different reactions from "God". |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 14, 2023 1:04:23 GMT
They basically are variations on a theme: either didn't read the Bible or misunderstood what you read, then make apples to oranges comparisons. I'm curious if you read them before posting? But here is an apples to apples comparison from the NKJV. Numbers 15:32-36, a man is found gathering sticks on the Sabbath, to build a fire for his family. Moses asks Yahweh what to do. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” John 8, Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught cheating on her husband and reminded Jesus that according to Moses' (Yahweh) she should be stoned to death. Jesus answered, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” Both sinners were Jews, both violated God's law, completely different reactions from "God". I skimmed them just to be sure they were really going to try to address your point. Your apples to apples is a good, stark case in point. Christians will come back with how Israelites were under the "Old Covenant", and Jesus "fulfilled" that covenant and ushered in the new one. If you can stand any more links, at least they get to make their own case: www.compellingtruth.org/old-covenant-vs-new-covenant.htmlwww.desiringgod.org/articles/how-christ-fulfilled-and-ended-the-old-testament-regime |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 14, 2023 1:26:05 GMT
They basically are variations on a theme: either didn't read the Bible or misunderstood what you read, then make apples to oranges comparisons. I'm curious if you read them before posting? But here is an apples to apples comparison from the NKJV. Numbers 15:32-36, a man is found gathering sticks on the Sabbath, to build a fire for his family. Moses asks Yahweh what to do. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” John 8, Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught cheating on her husband and reminded Jesus that according to Moses' (Yahweh) she should be stoned to death. Jesus answered, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” Both sinners were Jews, both violated God's law, completely different reactions from "God". I skimmed them just to be sure they were really going to try to address your point. Your apples to apples is a good, stark case in point. Christians will come back with how Israelites were under the "Old Covenant", and Jesus "fulfilled" that covenant and ushered in the new one. If you can stand any more links, at least they get to make their own case: www.compellingtruth.org/old-covenant-vs-new-covenant.htmlwww.desiringgod.org/articles/how-christ-fulfilled-and-ended-the-old-testament-regimeThe problem with that argument is that Jews rejected the "new covenant" and rejected Christ. So they are still (or should be) bound by the old laws. And Jesus hadn't died yet when he sidestepped Moses' law. Jesus also never claims to be a god and saving souls wasn't a thing yet, that came later. The problem with links is those people aren't here to defend their ideas. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 14, 2023 1:40:37 GMT
The problem with that argument is that Jews rejected the "new covenant" and rejected Christ. So they are still (or should be) bound by the old laws. And Jesus hadn't died yet when he sidestepped Moses' law. Jesus also never claims to be a god and saving souls wasn't a thing yet, that came later. The problem with links is those people aren't here to defend their ideas. True, but at least you can see their arguments, the better to judge your own. |
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Post by djorno on Jan 14, 2023 2:07:58 GMT
It's related with the timeline of the Christian eschatology. True, Paul was never a prophet, but that doesn't mean he didn't receive divine revelations from God or Jesus Christ same as a prophet. Paul wrote in Galatians 1:21: "I did not receive it [the gospel] from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." Say, isn't that the way that Joseph Smith did it? What a coincidence! There’s a slight difference. Joseph Smith, like Muhammad before him, allegedly received revelations from an angel(Moroni), in Muhammad’s case(Jibreel). Whereas Paul received his directly from Christ. The bible even warns us that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. |
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Post by djorno on Jan 14, 2023 2:15:45 GMT
The problem with that argument is that Jews rejected the "new covenant" and rejected Christ. So they are still (or should be) bound by the old laws. And Jesus hadn't died yet when he sidestepped Moses' law. Jesus also never claims to be a god and saving souls wasn't a thing yet, that came later. The problem with links is those people aren't here to defend their ideas. Jesus does claim to be God in a number of places in the gospels. |
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Post by Sarge on Jan 14, 2023 4:56:50 GMT
The problem with that argument is that Jews rejected the "new covenant" and rejected Christ. So they are still (or should be) bound by the old laws. And Jesus hadn't died yet when he sidestepped Moses' law. Jesus also never claims to be a god and saving souls wasn't a thing yet, that came later. The problem with links is those people aren't here to defend their ideas. True, but at least you can see their arguments, the better to judge your own. I find it difficult to use their arguments to judge my own since we don't address the same issues. I come to discussion forums for discussion. I can google as well as anyone else. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2023 7:15:36 GMT
The problem with that argument is that Jews rejected the "new covenant" and rejected Christ. So they are still (or should be) bound by the old laws. And Jesus hadn't died yet when he sidestepped Moses' law. Jesus also never claims to be a god and saving souls wasn't a thing yet, that came later. The problem with links is those people aren't here to defend their ideas. Jesus does claim to be God in a number of places in the gospels. No, he doesn't. From a biblical position, the best argument that Jesus is God is to cherry pick the "I and my father are one" line out of context. Otherwise, to maintain such a conviction, one would have to explain away everything else, like when he said, "no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows." And besides, the idea that Jesus is God undermines John 3:16, the most quoted Bible verse ever. |
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