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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 18, 2023 19:00:40 GMT
If I recall correctly that spying was used by Batman to bring down the Joker so it wasn’t necessarily critical of it. Art can explore the moral complexity of issues without coming to any conclusions. It has a pretty clear statement on the matter. They make a point of Bruce allowing Lucius to destroy it. The message is: don’t make this a normal thing because it’s too dangerous. Besides, how can one make a nuanced statement about online lunatic conspiracy nuts? There isn’t really a legitimate counterpoint there unless you’re one of them. Is that right? Assuming that is the the case, you’re suggesting that it CAN be used in special circumstances. Like a war on terror. That they are portrayed as the major threat is what I am critical of. There are greater dangers than them in this world. Riddler’s gang had more in common with Antifa than who you imagine me to be. His motivation concerned not only corruption but the injustice of wealth inequality.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 18, 2023 19:07:22 GMT
Dude, don’t be silly. Since ‘Split’, his films have been making substantial profits again. Hollywood cooks the books. Always has. That supports my point--that they are deliberately sidelining European artists.
Supposedly Jordan Peele is the greatest horror filmmaker evah if you go by alleged box office and Black Panther is the greatest movie in history--who the F talks about it? No one. No one quotes it, it came and went like seasonal packaging for a soft drink. Shyamalan is not making films for Middle America. He's audience is the urban Apple store employee and maybe some clueless Asian countries where they are curious about America. That's what Hollywood is at now. The Oscars last year shows the deterioration so perfectly. No one cared about the movies--Bill Maher was right about that observation that the only movie that got talked about was Gi Jane.
He's totally right. That's unbelievably pathetic. Culturally speaking--it is showing the thing is falling apart. And then they bring out Zelensky. They are even pretending to be politically disinterested or neutral. Hollywood sees culture as a means of transmitting messages--which have nothing to do with celebration of heritages or life or expression of passion or intellectual deliberation. That's all been weeded out especially since it became so centralized and corporate.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jan 18, 2023 19:31:37 GMT
ALIEN was woke for its time. The craft that went into it made the wokeness tolerable (although maybe older people who saw it at the time were wondering why the main character wasn't a Richard Egan or Kenneth Tobey type). Weaver is great as displaying authority and yet being realistically sensitive--she doesn't come across as a caricature. But the men are unrealistic characters (same could be said for Cartwright's character--unless you see it from the perspective that in this age of space travel, it is so streamlined that anyone can go into space--and she's like a dispatcher in a delivery company). Jon Finch would have been more of an authority character than John Hurt if he had kept in the role. Skeritt is not the leading man type either. Kotto and Stanton are low-level maintenance people--not intelligent enough for leadership. If you examine year by year how movies in Hollywood were going, you can see this trend. It gathers momentum. The most basic kind of adventure story is Beowulf--the male warrior in the village who saves the day (from an exotic threat). The Odyssey is a variation on that--in that case the hero warrior is far from home and needs to get back so he can reclaim his wife and throne. That type of story is so rare to see now. It's still popular but they just don't make them anymore. They have to filter it through their narrow political ideologies (which become more incoherent).
And it is total BS to say that the issue is that you can't have diverse leads--that's not the problem. The problem is the disdain of European artists and culture and story standards has led to a weakness across the entire creative commercial sphere. It's like a school that teaches Spanish and then one day they decide that teachers don't need to be native speakers. So they start to hire people who learned Spanish as a second language. And then they start lowering standards even more to incorporate words from other languages in the curriculum. Eventually whatever you end up with will not be traditional Spanish language education. That is what has happened with film in Hollywood. It started off with a European core and then over time it was eroded. Now it's like the Tower of Babel--increasingly incoherent. They complained a movie about two gay guys was not popular. Why would it be popular? If most of the audience is hetero, why would that movie be popular? It's like trying to sell suntanning beds in the Sahara and being angry that the people there aren't buying. And yet--with Holylwood, they are not going broke from this attitude. They just throw money away at movies no one would watch. Like Movie 43. That is the perfect example to show Hollywood is not run like any business that is concerned about economics or audience taste.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 19:39:59 GMT
Hiring writers who understand in ways old white writers wouldn't. Sounds fine.
Keeping outdated writers is what creates stories like "Trigger Warning" by William Johnstone and J A Johnstone.
Whats with you and “old” people? Sounds pretty ageist to me. They're holding the world and society back, as usual. This goes back to Ancient Greece, even they recognized that old people and young people would be in eternal conflict.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 19:40:51 GMT
Hiring writers who understand in ways old white writers wouldn't. Sounds fine.
Keeping outdated writers is what creates stories like "Trigger Warning" by William Johnstone and J A Johnstone.
I haven’t seen Wednesday but it seems to be doing alright, unlike many other Netflix misfires of late. Go on, ruin another franchise for the woke religion. So you're prejudging based on these new writers being nonwhite. Okay.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 19:41:42 GMT
It had a black Gordon and Black Catwoman and made the Riddler into an Internet Troll, so yes. The Social Injustice Warriors can't own up to it though. Yep, it had a black Gordon and Catwoman and there were no complaints (if you search hard enough there may be the odd racist or troll but it was not in any way an issue). Diverse casting in itself is not an issue. It had no complaints because the Social Injustice Warriors are cowardly hypocrites. That's the only thing proven.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 19:51:48 GMT
It has a pretty clear statement on the matter. They make a point of Bruce allowing Lucius to destroy it. The message is: don’t make this a normal thing because it’s too dangerous. Besides, how can one make a nuanced statement about online lunatic conspiracy nuts? There isn’t really a legitimate counterpoint there unless you’re one of them. Is that right? Assuming that is the the case, you’re suggesting that it CAN be used in special circumstances. Like a war on terror. That they are portrayed as the major threat is what I am critical of. There are greater dangers than them in this world. Riddler’s gang had more in common with Antifa than who you imagine me to be. His motivation concerned not only corruption but the injustice of wealth inequality. The commentary in TDK does walk a very careful line. But it is clearly at least somewhat critical of wire tapping and torture- just in a very nuanced way. Batman acts as a stand in for America- his actions are often desperate and morally gray. It’s a major theme throughout. And Lucius is definitely supposed to be the moral authority in those wire tapping scenes. I’d say left and right wing ultra extremists are basically the same people. I don’t really know who The Batman was inspired by more. You were the one who called it “woke”. I just think it’s topical either way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 19:54:19 GMT
Yep, it had a black Gordon and Catwoman and there were no complaints (if you search hard enough there may be the odd racist or troll but it was not in any way an issue). Diverse casting in itself is not an issue. It had no complaints because the Social Injustice Warriors are cowardly hypocrites. That's the only thing proven. Again, you’re conflating DC fans and right wingers. That’s so random. Just because you dislike both? I’m a liberal and a Batman fan. There’a also right wing Marvel fans who hate DC. What does one thing have to do with the other?
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 18, 2023 19:54:54 GMT
I haven’t seen Wednesday but it seems to be doing alright, unlike many other Netflix misfires of late. Go on, ruin another franchise for the woke religion. So you're prejudging based on these new writers being nonwhite. Okay. I’m pre-judging it on the idea of a winning formula being changed because of stupidity.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 18, 2023 20:01:44 GMT
Hiring writers who understand in ways old white writers wouldn't. Sounds fine.
Keeping outdated writers is what creates stories like "Trigger Warning" by William Johnstone and J A Johnstone.
I’m with you. What have old white writers ever given us?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 18, 2023 20:10:58 GMT
That doesn't quite ring true with what I have heard from people I know who do or have worked in the entertainment industry. Nothing about Aliens or Predator would be called social justice warrior propaganda unless you had to do a complete rewrite of either film from scratch. I've heard from people I know as well, and nothing they say says anything about diversity quotas in writing and directing. Except maybe reasonable stuff like "Women can write women better than old men can".
Predator has tough nonwhite characters as tough as the white male lead, which makes it "forced diversity" and Aliens is about a tough women sticking it to idiot white men who caused a disaster. SJW.
Curious, but what productions have the people you know worked on? How long have they been in the industry? My uncle worked in the entertainment industry for 40 years on several different television programs like Renegade and Star Trek: Voyager, a friend of mine was the original showrunner of Disney's Tron: Uprising and wrote for the series Sleeper Cell, another friend worked as an actor in a number of commercials, feature films like Outbreak, The Cable Guy, and for television series like NCIS, and an acquaintance is an actor who has done television and theatre, all have said that the industry has become less logical and caring about quality storytelling and more about scoring diversity points from the press. That isn't an example of forced diversity, the characters in Predator were original creations and were presented as equal to the white males on the team of operatives. Forced diversity is when you change an established character's entire background and turn them into something to look good in the eyes of the press regardless of if it serves the storytelling in anyway. The heroine in Aliens is a tough white woman who has to deal with the mistakes of a corporation, not just one person, and there are non-white characters in the film that show to make plenty of errors in their actions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 21:54:43 GMT
It’s interesting how the definition of WOKE changes depending on a person’s political views.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 18, 2023 23:24:13 GMT
I don't recall anyone ever criticizing Shang-Chi for forced diversity, at least not as far as racial diversity was concerned. Oh heck yes they did, Geeks and Gamers and Quartering and Nerdrotic went berserk. Can you link one of these vids? I remember complaints about the feminist angle, not the racial angle.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 23:42:21 GMT
It had no complaints because the Social Injustice Warriors are cowardly hypocrites. That's the only thing proven. Again, you’re conflating DC fans and right wingers. That’s so random. Just because you dislike both? I’m a liberal and a Batman fan. There’a also right wing Marvel fans who hate DC. What does one thing have to do with the other? I haven't mentioned DC fans once, I don't know where you got that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 23:42:36 GMT
So you're prejudging based on these new writers being nonwhite. Okay. I’m pre-judging it on the idea of a winning formula being changed because of stupidity. IE, you're basing it on nothing.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 23:43:26 GMT
Hiring writers who understand in ways old white writers wouldn't. Sounds fine.
Keeping outdated writers is what creates stories like "Trigger Warning" by William Johnstone and J A Johnstone.
I’m with you. What have old white writers ever given us? When they write about white folks, it's usually okay. When they try to write women and nonwhites, they tend to be substandard. The women of Breaking Bad, for example.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 23:46:05 GMT
I've heard from people I know as well, and nothing they say says anything about diversity quotas in writing and directing. Except maybe reasonable stuff like "Women can write women better than old men can".
Predator has tough nonwhite characters as tough as the white male lead, which makes it "forced diversity" and Aliens is about a tough women sticking it to idiot white men who caused a disaster. SJW.
Curious, but what productions have the people you know worked on? How long have they been in the industry? My uncle worked in the entertainment industry for 40 years on several different television programs like Renegade and Star Trek: Voyager, a friend of mine was the original showrunner of Disney's Tron: Uprising and wrote for the series Sleeper Cell, another friend worked as an actor in a number of commercials, feature films like Outbreak, The Cable Guy, and for television series like NCIS, and an acquaintance is an actor who has done television and theatre, all have said that the industry has become less logical and caring about quality storytelling and more about scoring diversity points from the press. That isn't an example of forced diversity, the characters in Predator were original creations and were presented as equal to the white males on the team of operatives. Forced diversity is when you change an established character's entire background and turn them into something to look good in the eyes of the press regardless of if it serves the storytelling in anyway. The heroine in Aliens is a tough white woman who has to deal with the mistakes of a corporation, not just one person, and there are non-white characters in the film that show to make plenty of errors in their actions. I'd say I need real primary sources on any of this, and it reeks of bitterness from becoming outdated and needing someone else to blame.
The nonwhites being equals to white men in itself is "forced diversity" by the logic of the Injustice Warriors. The team in Predator should've all been white men if it wasn't "SJW".
Updating an outdated character is simply...updating them. Nothing about "forced diversity".
The corporation was embodied in Burke, a straight white male, meaning Ripley is SJW.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2023 23:46:50 GMT
Oh heck yes they did, Geeks and Gamers and Quartering and Nerdrotic went berserk. Can you link one of these vids? I remember complaints about the feminist angle, not the racial angle.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jan 18, 2023 23:55:55 GMT
It had a black Gordon and Black Catwoman and made the Riddler into an Internet Troll, so yes. The Social Injustice Warriors can't own up to it though. Yep, it had a black Gordon and Catwoman and there were no complaints (if you search hard enough there may be the odd racist or troll but it was not in any way an issue). Diverse casting in itself is not an issue. There were definitely complaints. People like Ben Shapiro were pretty mad about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 0:10:27 GMT
Again, you’re conflating DC fans and right wingers. That’s so random. Just because you dislike both? I’m a liberal and a Batman fan. There’a also right wing Marvel fans who hate DC. What does one thing have to do with the other? I haven't mentioned DC fans once, I don't know where you got that. You’re saying anti woke people go easy on The Batman. That doesn’t make any sense unless you’re conflating all right wingers and all DC fans.
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