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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 0:22:15 GMT
Curious, but what productions have the people you know worked on? How long have they been in the industry? My uncle worked in the entertainment industry for 40 years on several different television programs like Renegade and Star Trek: Voyager, a friend of mine was the original showrunner of Disney's Tron: Uprising and wrote for the series Sleeper Cell, another friend worked as an actor in a number of commercials, feature films like Outbreak, The Cable Guy, and for television series like NCIS, and an acquaintance is an actor who has done television and theatre, all have said that the industry has become less logical and caring about quality storytelling and more about scoring diversity points from the press. That isn't an example of forced diversity, the characters in Predator were original creations and were presented as equal to the white males on the team of operatives. Forced diversity is when you change an established character's entire background and turn them into something to look good in the eyes of the press regardless of if it serves the storytelling in anyway. The heroine in Aliens is a tough white woman who has to deal with the mistakes of a corporation, not just one person, and there are non-white characters in the film that show to make plenty of errors in their actions. I'd say I need real primary sources on any of this, and it reeks of bitterness from becoming outdated and needing someone else to blame.
The nonwhites being equals to white men in itself is "forced diversity" by the logic of the Injustice Warriors. The team in Predator should've all been white men if it wasn't "SJW".
Updating an outdated character is simply...updating them. Nothing about "forced diversity".
The corporation was embodied in Burke, a straight white male, meaning Ripley is SJW.
My uncle was an African-American and headed up a number of diversity programs in his time in the entertainment industry. My actor friend and actor acquaintance are also both African-American and are young enough by industry standards to headline their own show. And my screenwriter friend who was the original showrunner for Disney's Tron: Uprising series on Disney XD is Muslim. All have expressed dissatisfaction with the industry's business practices and disregard of storytelling craft to save face in the press. When my friend was working on the early 00's revival of The Twilight Zone he was in a meeting and they decided to change the nationality of the villains (Chinese) in one episode to not offend that section of the audience (Based on current events), and opted for them being Muslim instead for reasons which came off racially and culturally motivated, not regarding his presence in the room. However, you did not answer my question, which was who you know that has worked in the entertainment industry and what was their role. Which injustice warrior(s) have made the argument that having nonwhites being equals to whites is forced diversity? I have never seen this argument being made before by any self-identified culture warrior / rebel. I wasn't talking about outdated characters; I was talking about established characters that the storytellers change for no organic reason other than to score praise in the press or to satisfy their own vision. But Ripley isn't a social justice warrior, and she would have disagreed with the corporation regardless of who was in charge.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 0:31:28 GMT
I haven't mentioned DC fans once, I don't know where you got that. You’re saying anti woke people go easy on The Batman. That doesn’t make any sense unless you’re conflating all right wingers and all DC fans. By the way your pals on Knowhere are constantly attacking The Batman for being “too woke”. So there’s that too. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the Anti-Woke people, they left the Batman alone despite it being as "Woke" as anything else they go after.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 0:35:58 GMT
I'd say I need real primary sources on any of this, and it reeks of bitterness from becoming outdated and needing someone else to blame.
The nonwhites being equals to white men in itself is "forced diversity" by the logic of the Injustice Warriors. The team in Predator should've all been white men if it wasn't "SJW".
Updating an outdated character is simply...updating them. Nothing about "forced diversity".
The corporation was embodied in Burke, a straight white male, meaning Ripley is SJW.
My uncle was an African-American and headed up a number of diversity programs in his time in the entertainment industry. My actor friend and actor acquaintance are also both African-American and are young enough by industry standards to headline their own show. And my screenwriter friend who was the original showrunner for Disney's Tron: Uprising series on Disney XD is Muslim. All have expressed dissatisfaction with the industry's business practices and disregard of storytelling craft to save face in the press. When my friend was working on the early 00's revival of The Twilight Zone he was in a meeting and they decided to change the nationality of the villains (Chinese) in one episode to not offend that section of the audience (Based on current events), and opted for them being Muslim instead for reasons which came off racially and culturally motivated, not regarding his presence in the room. However, you did not answer my question, which was who you know that has worked in the entertainment industry and what was their role. Which injustice warrior(s) have made the argument that having nonwhites being equals to whites is forced diversity? I have never seen this argument being made before by any self-identified culture warrior / rebel. I wasn't talking about outdated characters; I was talking about established characters that the storytellers change for no organic reason other than to score praise in the press or to satisfy their own vision. But Ripley isn't a social justice warrior, and she would have disagreed with the corporation regardless of who was in charge. I'd have to talk to them directly then. Because all we have is "Well I know people".
Making a Muslim bad guy right after 9/11, yeah I can see why that was the more popular choice.
Me, I know writers. Mainly Novelists, but there are some working in the TV industry and I've worked with them. None have ever raised these complaints and they're all white. I know Social Media folks, Commercial Designers, and I've acted in a few local TV programs.
The Quartering, Geeks and Gamers, Nerdrotic, off the top of my head.
Established outdated characters changed because they're outdated now. Easily. I don't remember anyone complaining how Dizzy in Starship Troopers was changed from a man to a woman in the movie adaptation.
Ripley does meet all the SJW Criteria, and it doesn't change that the Company Rep was a Straight White Male.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 0:41:45 GMT
You’re saying anti woke people go easy on The Batman. That doesn’t make any sense unless you’re conflating all right wingers and all DC fans. By the way your pals on Knowhere are constantly attacking The Batman for being “too woke”. So there’s that too. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the Anti-Woke people, they left the Batman alone despite it being as "Woke" as anything else they go after. I do see people online bitching about Batman though. And The Batman is far less “woke” than most movies that get accused of being woke. It is usually some dumb shit like “Oh no! The corrupt mayor was white! Woke! Woke! Woke!”
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 0:53:17 GMT
I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the Anti-Woke people, they left the Batman alone despite it being as "Woke" as anything else they go after. I do see people online bitching about Batman though. And The Batman is far less “woke” than most movies that get accused of being woke. It is usually some dumb shit like “Oh no! The corrupt mayor was white! Woke! Woke! Woke!” The Batman is every bit as woke, it has major nonwhites who are portrayed as intelligent and competent people and Catwoman has her line about "Rich White Folks" and Riddler turns out to be an Internet Troll.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 1:08:39 GMT
I do see people online bitching about Batman though. And The Batman is far less “woke” than most movies that get accused of being woke. It is usually some dumb shit like “Oh no! The corrupt mayor was white! Woke! Woke! Woke!” The Batman is every bit as woke, it has major nonwhites who are portrayed as intelligent and competent people and Catwoman has her line about "Rich White Folks" and Riddler turns out to be an Internet Troll. Eh. The Catwoman line I’ll give you because it’s so forced and out of place. But the movie doesn’t really hit you over the head with any social message aside from “internet wackos are nuts” and the main corrupt guy who controls everything is a mob boss. On a wokeness scale of 1-10 it’s maybe a 5.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 1:11:01 GMT
My uncle was an African-American and headed up a number of diversity programs in his time in the entertainment industry. My actor friend and actor acquaintance are also both African-American and are young enough by industry standards to headline their own show. And my screenwriter friend who was the original showrunner for Disney's Tron: Uprising series on Disney XD is Muslim. All have expressed dissatisfaction with the industry's business practices and disregard of storytelling craft to save face in the press. When my friend was working on the early 00's revival of The Twilight Zone he was in a meeting and they decided to change the nationality of the villains (Chinese) in one episode to not offend that section of the audience (Based on current events), and opted for them being Muslim instead for reasons which came off racially and culturally motivated, not regarding his presence in the room. However, you did not answer my question, which was who you know that has worked in the entertainment industry and what was their role. Which injustice warrior(s) have made the argument that having nonwhites being equals to whites is forced diversity? I have never seen this argument being made before by any self-identified culture warrior / rebel. I wasn't talking about outdated characters; I was talking about established characters that the storytellers change for no organic reason other than to score praise in the press or to satisfy their own vision. But Ripley isn't a social justice warrior, and she would have disagreed with the corporation regardless of who was in charge. I'd have to talk to them directly then. Because all we have is "Well I know people".
Making a Muslim bad guy right after 9/11, yeah I can see why that was the more popular choice.
Me, I know writers. Mainly Novelists, but there are some working in the TV industry and I've worked with them. None have ever raised these complaints and they're all white. I know Social Media folks, Commercial Designers, and I've acted in a few local TV programs.
The Quartering, Geeks and Gamers, Nerdrotic, off the top of my head.
Established outdated characters changed because they're outdated now. Easily. I don't remember anyone complaining how Dizzy in Starship Troopers was changed from a man to a woman in the movie adaptation.
Ripley does meet all the SJW Criteria, and it doesn't change that the Company Rep was a Straight White Male.
But I have cited people with credited work and background, so it isn't an instance of, "well, I know people." The episode was being produced a few years after 9/11 and many Muslims in America were witnessing extreme prejudice and being told to "go back home." Very well, who are they? What is their work? And where have they made such arguments? By the way, Geeks + Gamers have non-white individuals for fans and on staff. But I didn't say outdated characters, I was talking about characters who were changed for the sake of it with little interest to serve storytelling. People didn't complain about Dizzy being made female in Starship Troopers likely because it isn't a novel that has universal commercial appeal, when the movie came out many people didn't even know it was a book before. No, she doesn't, maybe to your very simplified and false idea of a social justice warrior though, but she really isn't. You change the company owner to being non-white and female you still would see Ripley at odds with them and calling them out on their business practices.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 1:17:10 GMT
The Batman is every bit as woke, it has major nonwhites who are portrayed as intelligent and competent people and Catwoman has her line about "Rich White Folks" and Riddler turns out to be an Internet Troll. Eh. The Catwoman line I’ll give you because it’s so forced and out of place. But the movie doesn’t really hit you over the head with any social message aside from “internet wackos are nuts” and the main corrupt guy who controls everything is a mob boss. On a wokeness scale of 1-10 it’s maybe a 5. So...just like every other "Woke" film whose only crime is not being 100% white straight male.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 1:19:55 GMT
I'd have to talk to them directly then. Because all we have is "Well I know people".
Making a Muslim bad guy right after 9/11, yeah I can see why that was the more popular choice.
Me, I know writers. Mainly Novelists, but there are some working in the TV industry and I've worked with them. None have ever raised these complaints and they're all white. I know Social Media folks, Commercial Designers, and I've acted in a few local TV programs.
The Quartering, Geeks and Gamers, Nerdrotic, off the top of my head.
Established outdated characters changed because they're outdated now. Easily. I don't remember anyone complaining how Dizzy in Starship Troopers was changed from a man to a woman in the movie adaptation.
Ripley does meet all the SJW Criteria, and it doesn't change that the Company Rep was a Straight White Male.
But I have cited people with credited work and background, so it isn't an instance of, "well, I know people." The episode was being produced a few years after 9/11 and many Muslims in America were witnessing extreme prejudice and being told to "go back home." Very well, who are they? What is their work? And where have they made such arguments? By the way, Geeks + Gamers have non-white individuals for fans and on staff. But I didn't say outdated characters, I was talking about characters who were changed for the sake of it with little interest to serve storytelling. People didn't complain about Dizzy being made female in Starship Troopers likely because it isn't a novel that has universal commercial appeal, when the movie came out many people didn't even know it was a book before. No, she doesn't, maybe to your very simplified and false idea of a social justice warrior though, but she really isn't. You change the company owner to being non-white and female you still would see Ripley at odds with them and calling them out on their business practices. You said you knew people and mentioned possible things they did, not actual people with links.
Yes, so it was in line with how xenophobic America was at the time. Believable, sadly.
You name names, I will.
The way they all reacted to Shang Chi says volumes.
Characters who get changed are changed precisely because they're outdated. Name some who weren't outdated but changed anyways. The Dizzy example is 100% the same.
Yes, she is. She really is.
But they didn't, they made the Company Rep a straight white male.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 2:27:28 GMT
Eh. The Catwoman line I’ll give you because it’s so forced and out of place. But the movie doesn’t really hit you over the head with any social message aside from “internet wackos are nuts” and the main corrupt guy who controls everything is a mob boss. On a wokeness scale of 1-10 it’s maybe a 5. So...just like every other "Woke" film whose only crime is not being 100% white straight male. I’m not one of those anti-woke people. But that’s a bit of an overstatement. There are of course racist pricks who call anything woke that is like that. But there are also shows and movies that suffer from being too obsessed with delivering a social message at the expense of story and character. She Hulk is obviously far more agenda driven than The Batman, for example. Surely that’s not a bold statement.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 2:39:45 GMT
So...just like every other "Woke" film whose only crime is not being 100% white straight male. I’m not one of those anti-woke people. But that’s a bit of an overstatement. There are of course racist pricks who call anything woke that is like that. But there are also shows and movies that suffer from being too obsessed with delivering a social message at the expense of story and character. She Hulk is obviously far more agenda driven than The Batman, for example. Surely that’s not a bold statement. Seeing how it's fairly accurate to the comics, it's not. Heck, Dan Slott himself stood up for the show.
I mean, no one would care if Deadpool twerked.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 2:47:16 GMT
I’m not one of those anti-woke people. But that’s a bit of an overstatement. There are of course racist pricks who call anything woke that is like that. But there are also shows and movies that suffer from being too obsessed with delivering a social message at the expense of story and character. She Hulk is obviously far more agenda driven than The Batman, for example. Surely that’s not a bold statement. Seeing how it's fairly accurate to the comics, it's not. Heck, Dan Slott himself stood up for the show.
I mean, no one would care if Deadpool twerked. If Deadpool twerked I’d roll my eyes just as hard. The twerking, dumb as it was, isn’t really the “woke” part though and irrelevant to my point. Comic accurate or not The Batman isn’t as lazy with its social commentary. As I said above I’m fairly progressive. I’m not “anti woke”. But I do think it gets old fast when all the female superheroes are blatant mouthpieces for the same tired message. I think that type of thing is counterproductive and just plain boring. Can’t a few of them be well rounded characters with real flaws and arcs for a change?
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 3:34:52 GMT
Seeing how it's fairly accurate to the comics, it's not. Heck, Dan Slott himself stood up for the show.
I mean, no one would care if Deadpool twerked. If Deadpool twerked I’d roll my eyes just as hard. The twerking, dumb as it was, isn’t really the “woke” part though and irrelevant to my point. Comic accurate or not The Batman isn’t as lazy with its social commentary. As I said above I’m fairly progressive. I’m not “anti woke”. But I do think it gets old fast when all the female superheroes are blatant mouthpieces for the same tired message. I think that type of thing is counterproductive and just plain boring. Can’t a few of them be well rounded characters with real flaws and arcs for a change? Catwoman's comment about "Rich White Folks" is as blatant as it can get. Nothing in She-Hulk matches that.
Oh, and what about male superheroes who voice "messages", that's fine?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 4:20:53 GMT
But I have cited people with credited work and background, so it isn't an instance of, "well, I know people." The episode was being produced a few years after 9/11 and many Muslims in America were witnessing extreme prejudice and being told to "go back home." Very well, who are they? What is their work? And where have they made such arguments? By the way, Geeks + Gamers have non-white individuals for fans and on staff. But I didn't say outdated characters, I was talking about characters who were changed for the sake of it with little interest to serve storytelling. People didn't complain about Dizzy being made female in Starship Troopers likely because it isn't a novel that has universal commercial appeal, when the movie came out many people didn't even know it was a book before. No, she doesn't, maybe to your very simplified and false idea of a social justice warrior though, but she really isn't. You change the company owner to being non-white and female you still would see Ripley at odds with them and calling them out on their business practices. You said you knew people and mentioned possible things they did, not actual people with links.
Yes, so it was in line with how xenophobic America was at the time. Believable, sadly.
You name names, I will.
The way they all reacted to Shang Chi says volumes.
Characters who get changed are changed precisely because they're outdated. Name some who weren't outdated but changed anyways. The Dizzy example is 100% the same.
Yes, she is. She really is.
But they didn't, they made the Company Rep a straight white male.
Very well, Ronald W. Taylor, linkKamran Pasha, linkClifton Duncan, linkGiacomo Knox, link
That isn't an effective let alone substantial example, I am requesting specific times in specific videos where they say such a thing in a serious fashion. Your example of Dizzy from Starship Troopers being altered for the film iteration is valid to your argument, but my argument for why nobody cries about that change is I would say is equally as valid because the novel wasn't that extremely well-known and many audience members who saw the film version didn't even know it was based on a book till, they read the credits. Johnny Storm in 2015's film adaptation of the Fantastic Four, writer-director Josh Trank changed Johnny Storm and his father's established roots to serve his vision and made Sue Storm an adopted child, which altered the dynamic somewhat in relationships. Coming towards the release of the film, the studio tried to play into the conversation about the casting and try to make the film an important piece of media - which, evidently, didn't work. Fan baiting, which goes hand-in-hand with the description of forced diversity, is a marketing strategy in the entertainment industry where companies try to apply to deflect from criticism and paint all opposition as ignorant. Disney is getting ready to go in high gear with this business practice come the release of the live action The Little Mermaid this summer, See also, Being a female and taking issue with white males doesn't make Ripley a social justice warrior.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 4:50:04 GMT
If Deadpool twerked I’d roll my eyes just as hard. The twerking, dumb as it was, isn’t really the “woke” part though and irrelevant to my point. Comic accurate or not The Batman isn’t as lazy with its social commentary. As I said above I’m fairly progressive. I’m not “anti woke”. But I do think it gets old fast when all the female superheroes are blatant mouthpieces for the same tired message. I think that type of thing is counterproductive and just plain boring. Can’t a few of them be well rounded characters with real flaws and arcs for a change? Catwoman's comment about "Rich White Folks" is as blatant as it can get. Nothing in She-Hulk matches that.
Oh, and what about male superheroes who voice "messages", that's fine?
Depends. Give me an example and I’ll tell you, I guess. This isn’t about gender. I just think the woke agenda can be boring. Social commentary of any kind needs subtlety and should never be the main goal of a story teller. Sure, The Batman has some not so subtle social commentary but I have no issues with it because it’s also a great movie with well developed characters.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 4:53:22 GMT
Catwoman's comment about "Rich White Folks" is as blatant as it can get. Nothing in She-Hulk matches that.
Oh, and what about male superheroes who voice "messages", that's fine?
Depends. Give me an example and I’ll tell you, I guess. This isn’t about gender. I just think the woke agenda can be boring. Social commentary of any kind needs subtlety and should never be the main goal of a story teller. Sure, The Batman has some not so subtle social commentary but I have no issues with it because it’s also a great movie. Let me put it this way, if "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" or "In the Heat of the Night" came out today they'd get seriously hit with the SJW name.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 4:55:19 GMT
Depends. Give me an example and I’ll tell you, I guess. This isn’t about gender. I just think the woke agenda can be boring. Social commentary of any kind needs subtlety and should never be the main goal of a story teller. Sure, The Batman has some not so subtle social commentary but I have no issues with it because it’s also a great movie. Let me put it this way, if "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" or "In the Heat of the Night" came out today they'd get seriously hit with the SJW name. For sure. But they were actually bold and subversive in that time period. That’s the difference. Do we really need the “girls can do anything” message in 2023? Is that really so progressive and insightful? I say it’s boring, lazy and pandering.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 4:58:42 GMT
You said you knew people and mentioned possible things they did, not actual people with links.
Yes, so it was in line with how xenophobic America was at the time. Believable, sadly.
You name names, I will.
The way they all reacted to Shang Chi says volumes.
Characters who get changed are changed precisely because they're outdated. Name some who weren't outdated but changed anyways. The Dizzy example is 100% the same.
Yes, she is. She really is.
But they didn't, they made the Company Rep a straight white male.
Very well, Ronald W. Taylor, linkKamran Pasha, linkClifton Duncan, linkGiacomo Knox, link
That isn't an effective let alone substantial example, I am requesting specific times in specific videos where they say such a thing in a serious fashion. Your example of Dizzy from Starship Troopers being altered for the film iteration is valid to your argument, but my argument for why nobody cries about that change is I would say is equally as valid because the novel wasn't that extremely well-known and many audience members who saw the film version didn't even know it was based on a book till, they read the credits. Johnny Storm in 2015's film adaptation of the Fantastic Four, writer-director Josh Trank changed Johnny Storm and his father's established roots to serve his vision and made Sue Storm an adopted child, which altered the dynamic somewhat in relationships. Coming towards the release of the film, the studio tried to play into the conversation about the casting and try to make the film an important piece of media - which, evidently, didn't work. Fan baiting, which goes hand-in-hand with the description of forced diversity, is a marketing strategy in the entertainment industry where companies try to apply to deflect from criticism and paint all opposition as ignorant. Disney is getting ready to go in high gear with this business practice come the release of the live action The Little Mermaid this summer, See also, Being a female and taking issue with white males doesn't make Ripley a social justice warrior. I'll have to look them up and research them, thanks.
Me, I've worked with James Mullinger (https://www.jamesmullinger.com/), Brian Finlay (https://www.dtistudios.ca/), Adam Lordon (https://www.miramichi.org/mayor/) off the top of my head and never heard these complaints.
But it's still changing an established character.
As for Fant4stic, that was just a terrible movie in general and had no SJW messaging. The mess up wasn't making Franklin Storm and Johnny both black, it was keeping Sue white and saying she was adopted. She should've just been made black and biologically Franklins' daughter as well.
There was no real fan baiting, anything stating there was is just fake Grifter nonsense.
And at no point has Disney said "If they dislike the Little Mermaid they're racists". Not once.
By modern standards, it does make Ripley as SJW. Anything that makes a white man less means the person doing it is an SJW.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 4:59:32 GMT
Let me put it this way, if "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" or "In the Heat of the Night" came out today they'd get seriously hit with the SJW name. For sure. But they were actually bold and subversive in that time period. That’s the difference. Do we really need the “girls can do anything” message in 2023? Is that really so progressive and insightful? Seeing how certain folks get mad anytime they see a female character who isn't a useless shrieking damsel or secondary to the male lead, yes I think it's still important.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 5:01:58 GMT
For sure. But they were actually bold and subversive in that time period. That’s the difference. Do we really need the “girls can do anything” message in 2023? Is that really so progressive and insightful? Seeing how certain folks get mad anytime they see a female character who isn't a useless shrieking damsel or secondary to the male lead, yes I think it's still important. But why would a writer gear their social message to idiots like that? How about something for the rest of us who already know girls can do anything? That’s my issue with it as a progressive.
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