Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 17:53:18 GMT
His arguments are so severely flawed they are hardly worth reading, much less replying to. She Hulk is like Seinfeld because the characters are selfish on Seinfeld and appear selfish on She Hulk? Never mind that one was entirely intentional and the other the result of oblivious writing. She Hulk is like Mary Tyler Moore because both have a wide array of comedic styles. Never mind that one was deliberately and effectively wide ranging and the other only did this because of completely directionless show-runners. It boggles the mind. You're saying "oblivious writing" and "directionless" based on nothing but your bias'. What makes you so sure it was oblivious writing and directionless and not intentional? You can easily say it was just laziness for Seinfeld and Mary Tyler Moore as well. My bias? What bias is that exactly? Are you one of those people that just assumes literally everyone who doesn’t like this show is a misogynist? I could indulge this idea that the directionlessness was intentional but the point is moot. A lot of shows try to do things but that does not make them equal to the shows that actually pulled it off. But your Seinfeld example is interesting though- were you saying that the writers intentionally made Jen unlikable?
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 26, 2023 18:44:14 GMT
You're saying "oblivious writing" and "directionless" based on nothing but your bias'. What makes you so sure it was oblivious writing and directionless and not intentional? You can easily say it was just laziness for Seinfeld and Mary Tyler Moore as well. My bias? What bias is that exactly? Are you one of those people that just assumes literally everyone who doesn’t like this show is a misogynist? I could indulge this idea that the directionlessness was intentional but the point is moot. A lot of shows try to do things but that does not make them equal to the shows that actually pulled it off. But your Seinfeld example is interesting though- were you saying that the writers intentionally made Jen unlikable? Given the response it was getting before it even started, is it so hard to believe? The reaction nearly every female in the MCU got says a lot.
I never found her unlikable, because I understood what she was saying to Bruce. The idea that she is unlikable is something I never understood.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 18:45:54 GMT
My bias? What bias is that exactly? Are you one of those people that just assumes literally everyone who doesn’t like this show is a misogynist? I could indulge this idea that the directionlessness was intentional but the point is moot. A lot of shows try to do things but that does not make them equal to the shows that actually pulled it off. But your Seinfeld example is interesting though- were you saying that the writers intentionally made Jen unlikable? Given the response it was getting before it even started, is it so hard to believe? The reaction nearly every female in the MCU got says a lot.
I never found her unlikable, because I understood what she was saying to Bruce. The idea that she is unlikable is something I never understood.
I’m not talking about random YouTubers. You accused me of being bias. I am not. My opinion is based on the quality of the show alone. Then why did you compare her to the “unlikable selfish” Seinfeld characters?! You said that, not me! You’re making no sense here.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 2:13:33 GMT
Given the response it was getting before it even started, is it so hard to believe? The reaction nearly every female in the MCU got says a lot.
I never found her unlikable, because I understood what she was saying to Bruce. The idea that she is unlikable is something I never understood.
I’m not talking about random YouTubers. You accused me of being bias. I am not. My opinion is based on the quality of the show alone. Then why did you compare her to the “unlikable selfish” Seinfeld characters?! You said that, not me! You’re making no sense here. And I'm saying you probably bought into the pre-hate the show was getting as soon as it was announced.
Because people kept saying she was unlikable (even thought I didn't think so) and I figured I'd fight fire with fire and bring up the Seinfeld characters as "unlikable" people that the She-Hulk Haters have no problem with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 2:58:39 GMT
I’m not talking about random YouTubers. You accused me of being bias. I am not. My opinion is based on the quality of the show alone. Then why did you compare her to the “unlikable selfish” Seinfeld characters?! You said that, not me! You’re making no sense here. And I'm saying you probably bought into the pre-hate the show was getting as soon as it was announced.
Because people kept saying she was unlikable (even thought I didn't think so) and I figured I'd fight fire with fire and bring up the Seinfeld characters as "unlikable" people that the She-Hulk Haters have no problem with.
Nope. I did not. I watched the show and saw how bad it was. As did many. The characters on Seinfeld are deliberately written to have lots of negative traits- that’s a huge part of the show and it’s humor. If people found She Hulk unlikable it was unintentional. You’re making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 27, 2023 4:54:52 GMT
Indeed, formersamhmd continues to be full of surprises. Rather than accept that people have different opinions on media, they need to come to the conclusion that a critic has bias, an agenda, is a scam artist, is deranged, etc. to make the world feel better in their eyes. It is getting more ridiculous every day. The insane response She-Hulk got (and was always going to get) speaks volumes about Outrage Culture. I do not doubt that there were people who express dislike for the series in an extreme way, but that doesn't make everyone who didn't like it have a bias, an agenda, is deranged, and a scam artist looking for clicks. That's just ridiculous.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 27, 2023 5:01:39 GMT
My bias? What bias is that exactly? Are you one of those people that just assumes literally everyone who doesn’t like this show is a misogynist? I could indulge this idea that the directionlessness was intentional but the point is moot. A lot of shows try to do things but that does not make them equal to the shows that actually pulled it off. But your Seinfeld example is interesting though- were you saying that the writers intentionally made Jen unlikable? Given the response it was getting before it even started, is it so hard to believe? The reaction nearly every female in the MCU got says a lot.
I never found her unlikable, because I understood what she was saying to Bruce. The idea that she is unlikable is something I never understood.
Categorizing anyone who doesn't like a series like She-Hulk as being misogynist is a pretty ridiculous thing to do, and quite frankly pretty ignorant. What about the women who didn't like the series? They certainly do exist. I personally didn't find Jennifer Walters in this series to be likeable because she didn't display traits that made me feel that this is the sort of character to root for, made worse by not really growing as the season progresses. I think her questionable line to Bruce Banner would be more forgiven if she had really grown from that sort of person after becoming a superhero and later apologizing to her cousin for her rudeness.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 27, 2023 5:05:07 GMT
I’m not talking about random YouTubers. You accused me of being bias. I am not. My opinion is based on the quality of the show alone. Then why did you compare her to the “unlikable selfish” Seinfeld characters?! You said that, not me! You’re making no sense here. And I'm saying you probably bought into the pre-hate the show was getting as soon as it was announced.
Because people kept saying she was unlikable (even thought I didn't think so) and I figured I'd fight fire with fire and bring up the Seinfeld characters as "unlikable" people that the She-Hulk Haters have no problem with.
This rhetoric is getting old, and becomes more ridiculous the more you suggest it. Not everyone who didn't go into the She-Hulk series was thinking it was going to be bad and didn't want to hate it, some people gave it a chance and it just wasn't to their liking - it is honestly no more complex than that. Your "fight fire with fire" tactic didn't work so well, did it? Instead, your argument came across as pretty weak and silly.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 27, 2023 5:22:16 GMT
Still a minority, and a fallacy. If somebody on YouTube decided to make a video, it's on them if they notice and feel compelled to do so, but by doing so it only gave a vocal minority more attention which isn't desired. Why are you speaking in a general sense when you were the one who mentioned The Mary Tyler Moore Show to me directly and I had explained myself that I have not familiar enough with that program to either agree or disagree with you? Their problem, because anybody should be able to tell from the title that it is going to be about She-Hulk and not the Hulk. Well, sorry to disappoint but I wasn't looking to hate to watch the program and be ready to rip it apart. I gave it a chance because I like the Hulk and She-Hulk and while Marvel Studios has largely disappointed me with most of their output in recent memory, I was willing to give it a shot. I was not impressed by what I saw in the premiere and that line didn't sit right with me as a fan of the cinematic universe and of the source material it comes from. Why so many don't realize it is because it is fanfiction created by you, she says to Banner, "I am an expert in controlling my anger because I do it infinitely more than you" and the set-up is her being angry at being 'mansplained' about controlling anger as a Hulk. It certainly didn't make me leave the scene thinking Jennifer Walters was a particularly likeable character, I was hoping for some character growth going forward but very little did that happen. No, I liked the episode because it felt like the writers had finally found the right balance of humor, picked the best timing for jokes, and the interplay between Jennifer Walters and Matt Murdock felt genuine and was fun to see without having felt like Daredevil had been treated poorly. It was a likeable episode. Still an utterly deranged response, and that it happened so many times says a lot.
That you don't know about that old show means that the lessons it taught got forgotten over time, which is why there's such a backlash nowadays to anything similar.
The hope was that the title was just going to be a way of getting by their inability to make a Hulk show or movie (because of the deal with Universal) and that Jen wouldn't really be the lead and it would be all about Bruce.
Most were out to hate it before it debuted, they felt offended by her existence. Then again, I didn't hate Phase 4 either (I think it's better than most of Phases 1 and 2) and I understood Jen was talking about Bruce's Pre-Hulk life and not his Post-Hulk life. I understand that certain folks wanted Jen to be utterly broken and lose her pride completely and have no self-respect and go crawling back to Bruce and beg for forgiveness and become a useless damsel in her own show, but that wasn't going to happen.
There was no character growth in Seinfeld, no one complained.
The Daredevil episode got a positive response for making Jen be secondary in her own show, which appealed to certain viewers. Says a lot.
Again, with the fallacies. This just keeps getting ridiculous. Not everyone who came into the series wanted to dislike it, most were hoping it would work for them and it didn't, they also knew full well it wouldn't be a straight-up Hulk series. No it doesn't, I just have no familiarity with it. It is a well-liked and popular program; I just have no attachment to it. Enough with the ridiculous conclusions. You cannot compare She-Hulk to Seinfeld in regard to character growth, they are not the same sort of product. She-Hulk was designed to occupy space in the established Marvel Cinematic Universe and progress it further. It is more comedy driven than most of Marvel Studios content, but it has to feel authentic enough to fit into it and the character of Jennifer Walters is supposed to appear in more media in the near future, if you want people to get invested you have to give a solid reason to why the audience should spend their time with them and with little character growth that becomes hard to do. I wasn't talking generally; I was talking about my completely independent point of view. I didn't think Walters became secondary in the episode, it was still very much her show, but the producers handled Daredevil fine and their interaction with each other was pretty fun to see for me. At that point watching I was nervous they would do the character wrong, but they actually made a lighter version of that character work.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 27, 2023 5:25:52 GMT
I am not familiar enough with the Resident Evil property to either agree or disagree, the three men in the video are expressing disappointment about a studio's inability to adapt a game property properly, and not even making the effort to have their actors remotely resemble their characters, keep in mind they are also expressing disappointment in the casting and appearance of who is playing the Claire Redfield character, who maintained being white in the latest film adaptation. Fallacy going to be fallacy. IE, they're complaining over superficial stuff and got mad the second they saw any nonwhites. As usual.
Not fallacy, just 1 studio being singled out for abuse above all others, based on nothing.
Actually, in the video you shared they express dislike over the appearance of the Claire Redfield character and her actress, who was white. So, there pretty much goes your argument that they were only upset about race swap casting. It is fallacy. Your argument is neither sound nor does it have enough substance to be effective and comes across as a weak.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:00:18 GMT
And I'm saying you probably bought into the pre-hate the show was getting as soon as it was announced.
Because people kept saying she was unlikable (even thought I didn't think so) and I figured I'd fight fire with fire and bring up the Seinfeld characters as "unlikable" people that the She-Hulk Haters have no problem with.
Nope. I did not. I watched the show and saw how bad it was. As did many. The characters on Seinfeld are deliberately written to have lots of negative traits- that’s a huge part of the show and it’s humor. If people found She Hulk unlikable it was unintentional. You’re making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Many people who were against the show's very existence and were always going to hate it. Which shows how things have regressed.
They found her "unlikable" for silly reasons, while ignoring that they love other characters have far worse traits than her.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:01:20 GMT
The insane response She-Hulk got (and was always going to get) speaks volumes about Outrage Culture. I do not doubt that there were people who express dislike for the series in an extreme way, but that doesn't make everyone who didn't like it have a bias, an agenda, is deranged, and a scam artist looking for clicks. That's just ridiculous. If they made the videos tearing into the show and commented on those videos voicing their support for the content creators, then yes they do have a bias/an agenda/a bit funny in the head.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:03:59 GMT
Given the response it was getting before it even started, is it so hard to believe? The reaction nearly every female in the MCU got says a lot.
I never found her unlikable, because I understood what she was saying to Bruce. The idea that she is unlikable is something I never understood.
Categorizing anyone who doesn't like a series like She-Hulk as being misogynist is a pretty ridiculous thing to do, and quite frankly pretty ignorant. What about the women who didn't like the series? They certainly do exist. I personally didn't find Jennifer Walters in this series to be likeable because she didn't display traits that made me feel that this is the sort of character to root for, made worse by not really growing as the season progresses. I think her questionable line to Bruce Banner would be more forgiven if she had really grown from that sort of person after becoming a superhero and later apologizing to her cousin for her rudeness. The Female Grifters looking for easy $$$? Yes, they exist.
IE, if Jen had no self-respect, was wrong about everything, always needed someone else to do stuff for her and never accomplished anything on her own. I can see why that would appeal to certain folks.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:05:14 GMT
And I'm saying you probably bought into the pre-hate the show was getting as soon as it was announced.
Because people kept saying she was unlikable (even thought I didn't think so) and I figured I'd fight fire with fire and bring up the Seinfeld characters as "unlikable" people that the She-Hulk Haters have no problem with.
This rhetoric is getting old, and becomes more ridiculous the more you suggest it. Not everyone who didn't go into the She-Hulk series was thinking it was going to be bad and didn't want to hate it, some people gave it a chance and it just wasn't to their liking - it is honestly no more complex than that. Your "fight fire with fire" tactic didn't work so well, did it? Instead, your argument came across as pretty weak and silly. It didn't get a chance, at all. The second the show was announced it got torn into.
Shows more how the complaints about the show are silly to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:09:17 GMT
Still an utterly deranged response, and that it happened so many times says a lot.
That you don't know about that old show means that the lessons it taught got forgotten over time, which is why there's such a backlash nowadays to anything similar.
The hope was that the title was just going to be a way of getting by their inability to make a Hulk show or movie (because of the deal with Universal) and that Jen wouldn't really be the lead and it would be all about Bruce.
Most were out to hate it before it debuted, they felt offended by her existence. Then again, I didn't hate Phase 4 either (I think it's better than most of Phases 1 and 2) and I understood Jen was talking about Bruce's Pre-Hulk life and not his Post-Hulk life. I understand that certain folks wanted Jen to be utterly broken and lose her pride completely and have no self-respect and go crawling back to Bruce and beg for forgiveness and become a useless damsel in her own show, but that wasn't going to happen.
There was no character growth in Seinfeld, no one complained.
The Daredevil episode got a positive response for making Jen be secondary in her own show, which appealed to certain viewers. Says a lot.
Again, with the fallacies. This just keeps getting ridiculous. Not everyone who came into the series wanted to dislike it, most were hoping it would work for them and it didn't, they also knew full well it wouldn't be a straight-up Hulk series. No it doesn't, I just have no familiarity with it. It is a well-liked and popular program; I just have no attachment to it. Enough with the ridiculous conclusions. You cannot compare She-Hulk to Seinfeld in regard to character growth, they are not the same sort of product. She-Hulk was designed to occupy space in the established Marvel Cinematic Universe and progress it further. It is more comedy driven than most of Marvel Studios content, but it has to feel authentic enough to fit into it and the character of Jennifer Walters is supposed to appear in more media in the near future, if you want people to get invested you have to give a solid reason to why the audience should spend their time with them and with little character growth that becomes hard to do. I wasn't talking generally; I was talking about my completely independent point of view. I didn't think Walters became secondary in the episode, it was still very much her show, but the producers handled Daredevil fine and their interaction with each other was pretty fun to see for me. At that point watching I was nervous they would do the character wrong, but they actually made a lighter version of that character work. But they were secretly hoping it would be and they wouldn't really have to put up with Jen at all except as a useless sidekick/damsel for Bruce.
Obviously the lessons it taught have been forgotten.
They are. They're both sitcom series, and She-Hulk does what she's always done in the comics which is break the 4th Wall. I don't see anyone complaining her comics ruin the rest of the Marvel Universe.
It was very much her show getting stolen from her by Daredevil, being dominant the whole time and making her secondary. Precisely what they were hoping the entire show would be, with a male lead being the one really in charge and Jen being a secondary.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Jan 27, 2023 14:23:36 GMT
IE, they're complaining over superficial stuff and got mad the second they saw any nonwhites. As usual.
Not fallacy, just 1 studio being singled out for abuse above all others, based on nothing.
Actually, in the video you shared they express dislike over the appearance of the Claire Redfield character and her actress, who was white. So, there pretty much goes your argument that they were only upset about race swap casting. It is fallacy. Your argument is neither sound nor does it have enough substance to be effective and comes across as a weak. They wouldn't have put a picture of a black woman on the thumbnail if they weren't trying to attract certain people displeased with certain casting.
You see anyone going after Sony or Universal these days? No, it's just Disney.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 3:58:32 GMT
Nope. I did not. I watched the show and saw how bad it was. As did many. The characters on Seinfeld are deliberately written to have lots of negative traits- that’s a huge part of the show and it’s humor. If people found She Hulk unlikable it was unintentional. You’re making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Many people who were against the show's very existence and were always going to hate it. Which shows how things have regressed.
They found her "unlikable" for silly reasons, while ignoring that they love other characters have far worse traits than her.
You need to give it a rest. Not everyone who didn't like the series was going in looking to hate on it for its very existence, and many were just hoping for a very good program to watch every week...And they didn't get it (their opinion, which they right to as much as you do yours for liking it) You also need to stop trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as being a hypocrite, if they did not like the presentation of She-Hulk as a character but enjoys someone from another series like Seinfeld much more amusing it isn't hypocrisy it's just their opinion on the filmmaking. A character can be written as not very likeable on paper, but the actor and director can still make them entertain and allow for likeable traits to emerge from the performance. Take for instance Bruce Willis in the 1998 blockbuster Armageddon, not a great movie but the people who much enjoyed it liked Willis and many in the audience did cry when he said goodbye to his on-screen daughter Liv Tyler when he sacrifices himself to save the Earth. On paper, his character isn't depicted as the nicest guy around or the classiest with questionable parenting skills and work ethic, but Willis was able to make it work to where it made solid profit in its entire theatrical run, had the actor been a Kevin Costner, I do not think it would have clicked with as many people and the noticeable divide between critics and general moviegoers would have happened.
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 4:00:01 GMT
I do not doubt that there were people who express dislike for the series in an extreme way, but that doesn't make everyone who didn't like it have a bias, an agenda, is deranged, and a scam artist looking for clicks. That's just ridiculous. If they made the videos tearing into the show and commented on those videos voicing their support for the content creators, then yes they do have a bias/an agenda/a bit funny in the head. Generalizations for the win, then. You really do like your fallacies...(In case you are wondering, a fallacy is not a good thing in debate).
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 4:08:31 GMT
Categorizing anyone who doesn't like a series like She-Hulk as being misogynist is a pretty ridiculous thing to do, and quite frankly pretty ignorant. What about the women who didn't like the series? They certainly do exist. I personally didn't find Jennifer Walters in this series to be likeable because she didn't display traits that made me feel that this is the sort of character to root for, made worse by not really growing as the season progresses. I think her questionable line to Bruce Banner would be more forgiven if she had really grown from that sort of person after becoming a superhero and later apologizing to her cousin for her rudeness. The Female Grifters looking for easy $$$? Yes, they exist.
IE, if Jen had no self-respect, was wrong about everything, always needed someone else to do stuff for her and never accomplished anything on her own. I can see why that would appeal to certain folks.
I was referring to female consumers on the whole, there are definitely women who did not like the series. No, that is not what I would have wanted, where was that implied in the paragraph?
|
|
|
Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 28, 2023 4:11:35 GMT
This rhetoric is getting old, and becomes more ridiculous the more you suggest it. Not everyone who didn't go into the She-Hulk series was thinking it was going to be bad and didn't want to hate it, some people gave it a chance and it just wasn't to their liking - it is honestly no more complex than that. Your "fight fire with fire" tactic didn't work so well, did it? Instead, your argument came across as pretty weak and silly. It didn't get a chance, at all. The second the show was announced it got torn into.
Shows more how the complaints about the show are silly to begin with.
But not by everybody, there were people who were looking forward to it and didn't like it. If anything, you are only presenting yourself as a jerk and a bully to anyone who doesn't agree with you.
|
|