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Post by Sarge on Feb 18, 2023 8:32:54 GMT
Historically, women had no way of knowing they were barren until they were married multiple times, unless a doctor could diagnose it but even that is relatively recent. The fact is, a major component of marriage was the rearing of children. Marriage was a social contract between a man and a woman that carried some expectations, for example the man would provide a home and food, and the woman would be monogamous. As a rule, ancient worlds benefitted from population growth and it is nature. As for modern marriage, I say let whoever wants to marry, marry. 2 dudes, 3 women, 1 dude and 10 women, 1 woman and 10 guys, whatever floats your boat. But I'm not interested in "gay rights" or bullshit like that. We don't need laws that say gay people can marry, we need to laws that say anyone can marry.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 18, 2023 13:30:36 GMT
Hateful expressions come in degrees. The very fact that the OP suggests homosexuals are, merely by being homosexuals, somehow "broken," is disgusting, bigoted nonsense. This is not rocket science, and you should not require something so basic to be explained to you. No. Just because somebody disagrees with something, does not make them hateful. Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 13:49:42 GMT
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 18, 2023 14:14:15 GMT
So, straight people don't choose their sexual orientation. Just gay people do. Got it. I believe we are all predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. This makes sense even from an evolutionary perspective. No, it actually doesn’t. It’s also inconsistent with FACTS! Have you ever actually asked an evolutionary biologist about this? Better yet, have you studied sexual psychology, psychosexual development, gender studies, or any such related sciences before developing your “belief”? Let me save us all some time and answer the question for you. The answer is NO! And the reason we know the answer is no is because your “belief” contradicts the evidence and runs contrary to the beliefs of those who’ve actually studied this shit. Studying the Bible does not give you any insight into human sexuality or development because the Bible is NOT a science book. It’s a book of ignorance and lies. The simple fact of the matter is that we are NOT all predisposed to being attracted to the opposite sex. Evolution does NOT imply that all members of a species is an identical clone! It does not imply that genetic, hormonal, and developmental features between members of that species will express themselves in the same way. Evolution involves mutations, and genetic expression which can result in speciation through natural selection pressure, but does not always do so. It results in a condition whereby some humans are heterosexual, some end up homosexual, some bisexual, some pansexual, and some asexual. Sexuality exists as a spectrum in human society and it always has. That is consistent with both biological science and social science, but you’ve obviously never studied either, so of course you wouldn’t know this. In the same way that some humans have larger spleens than others, or how some have color blindness. Evolution did not ensure that every human male would born would be 5’10” (average male height). Nor did it ensure that every human would be born with a predisposition to opposite sex attraction. That literally contradicts all of the data which shows that homosexual male brains are structurally more similar to female brains. Or that female hormones in the womb have an influence on the fetal development of male fetuses. Offering your beliefs with no data and no support from the scientific community is not only ignorant, but it’s also harmful. And this is precisely why religion needs to essentially go away - because it just gets in the way of useful science. It spends more time harming society with these dangerous unscientific ideas than it does helping. Nobody should ever ask a Christian/Catholic a question about human sexuality if they want facts because they usually don’t have any to offer. They have harmful beliefs to offer instead. Unless that Christian/Catholic also has some kind of credentials in a scientific field related to the subject matter, chances are you’re gonna end up with some pseudoscientific bullshit that tries to combine science and magic together in a witches brew of nonsense. What you guys have are ideas and beliefs based on millennias old superstition, religious teachings about the master plan of an invisible sky daddy, and fearmongoring people who are different. Nobody should give a rats fuck about what any of you believe about human sexuality UNTIL you can demonstrate that you actually have any scientific understanding of it. Throwing the word “evolution” in your homophobic nonsense does not show that have even the slightest understanding of the subject at all. When you call something a “choice” when every person who is affected by the phenomenon tells you that it’s not a choice, and every scientist who studies the phenomenon agrees that it’s not a choice, what you’re actually doing is saying you don’t a damn science, data, or testimony of those involved. You’ve decided based on your brainwashed indoctrination that all of science is wrong and everyone who experiences same sex attraction is a liar. You’re not showing any respect towards the field or to the individuals your fairytale book tells you to condemn. It doesn’t matter if you call your righteous indignation and condemning judgement “love” or not because the harmful results show no difference. There ain’t no hate like Christian love! At the end of the day, your bias clouds your ability to exercise any rational judgment on the subject matter. For a group of people who likes to gaslight their victims with words like “gay agenda”, your primary agenda is to sustain your preexisting beliefs by any means necessary, which includes justifying your homophobia - and that’s neither a pursuit of truth, nor an expression of love. And this is why nobody should be taking people like you or clusium seriously when you talk about this stuff. Because neither of you ever actually know what the fuck you’re talking about and neither of you are speaking out of love.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 15:06:44 GMT
I believe we are all predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. This makes sense even from an evolutionary perspective. No, it actually doesn’t. It’s also inconsistent with FACTS! Have you ever actually asked an evolutionary biologist about this? Better yet, have you studied sexual psychology, psychosexual development, gender studies, or any such related sciences before developing your “belief”? Let me save us all some time and answer the question for you. The answer is NO! And the reason we know the answer is no is because your “belief” contradicts the evidence and runs contrary to the beliefs of those who’ve actually studied this shit. Studying the Bible does not give you any insight into human sexuality or development because the Bible is NOT a science book. It’s a book of ignorance and lies. The simple fact of the matter is that we are NOT all predisposed to being attracted to the opposite sex. Evolution does NOT imply that all members of a species is an identical clone! It does not imply that genetic, hormonal, and developmental features between members of that species will express themselves in the same way. Evolution involves mutations, and genetic expression which can result in speciation through natural selection pressure, but does not always do so. It results in a condition whereby some humans are heterosexual, some end up homosexual, some bisexual, some pansexual, and some asexual. Sexuality exists as a spectrum in human society and it always has. That is consistent with both biological science and social science, but you’ve obviously never studied either, so of course you wouldn’t know this. In the same way that some humans have larger spleens than others, or how some have color blindness. Evolution did not ensure that every human male would born would be 5’10” (average male height). Nor did it ensure that every human would be born with a predisposition to opposite sex attraction. That literally contradicts all of the data which shows that homosexual male brains are structurally more similar to female brains. Or that female hormones in the womb have an influence on the fetal development of male fetuses. Offering your beliefs with no data and no support from the scientific community is not only ignorant, but it’s also harmful. And this is precisely why religion needs to essentially go away - because it just gets in the way of useful science. It spends more time harming society with these dangerous unscientific ideas than it does helping. Nobody should ever ask a Christian/Catholic a question about human sexuality if they want facts because they usually don’t have any to offer. They have harmful beliefs to offer instead. Unless that Christian/Catholic also has some kind of credentials in a scientific field related to the subject matter, chances are you’re gonna end up with some pseudoscientific bullshit that tries to combine science and magic together in a witches brew of nonsense. What you guys have are ideas and beliefs based on millennias old superstition, religious teachings about the master plan of an invisible sky daddy, and fearmongoring people who are different. Nobody should give a rats fuck about what any of you believe about human sexuality UNTIL you can demonstrate that you actually have any scientific understanding of it. Throwing the word “evolution” in your homophobic nonsense does not show that have even the slightest understanding of the subject at all. When you call something a “choice” when every person who is affected by the phenomenon tells you that it’s not a choice, and every scientist who studies the phenomenon agrees that it’s not a choice, what you’re actually doing is saying you don’t a damn science, data, or testimony of those involved. You’ve decided based on your brainwashed indoctrination that all of science is wrong and everyone who experiences same sex attraction is a liar. You’re not showing any respect towards the field or to the individuals your fairytale book tells you to condemn. It doesn’t matter if you call your righteous indignation and condemning judgement “love” or not because the harmful results show no difference. There ain’t no hate like Christian love! At the end of the day, your bias clouds your ability to exercise any rational judgment on the subject matter. For a group of people who likes to gaslight their victims with words like “gay agenda”, your primary agenda is to sustain your preexisting beliefs by any means necessary, which includes justifying your homophobia - and that’s neither a pursuit of truth, nor an expression of love. And this is why nobody should be taking people like you or clusium seriously when you talk about this stuff. Because neither of you ever actually know what the fuck you’re talking about and neither of you are speaking out of love. Great post 👍 To be fair, I am a Catholic, and an archaeologist/evolutionary biologist. Homosexual relationships are normal in most species... Homophobia is only observed in one species, humans.
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Post by clusium on Feb 18, 2023 16:40:31 GMT
No. Just because somebody disagrees with something, does not make them hateful. Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia! Only when you wish violence or death upon them. We do not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 17:13:10 GMT
Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia! Only when you wish violence or death upon them. We do not. We? Who is we? You aren't speaking for Catholics, you are out of touch with the vast majority of the laity, who aren't bigots.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 18, 2023 21:25:02 GMT
Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia! Only when you wish violence or death upon them. We do not. No, not ONLY when you express violence or death upon them. The ideas YOU express about them are also homophobic and hateful. The fact that you happen to be non-violent about it is completely irrelevant! Violence isn’t what determines what is hateful. And the fact that you can’t even understand this simple fact is yet ANOTHER example of just how unqualified you are to speak intelligently about this.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 18, 2023 22:02:30 GMT
Historically, women had no way of knowing they were barren until they were married multiple times, unless a doctor could diagnose it but even that is relatively recent. The fact is, a major component of marriage was the rearing of children. Marriage was a social contract between a man and a woman that carried some expectations, for example the man would provide a home and food, and the woman would be monogamous. As a rule, ancient worlds benefitted from population growth and it is nature. As for modern marriage, I say let whoever wants to marry, marry. 2 dudes, 3 women, 1 dude and 10 women, 1 woman and 10 guys, whatever floats your boat. But I'm not interested in "gay rights" or bullshit like that. We don't need laws that say gay people can marry, we need to laws that say anyone can marry. War had much more to do with it as anything, because it’s nature for the male of the species to spread his DNA by destroying the male competition before they can reproduce offspring.
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Post by clusium on Feb 18, 2023 23:05:05 GMT
Only when you wish violence or death upon them. We do not. No, not ONLY when you express violence or death upon them. The ideas YOU express about them are also homophobic and hateful. The fact that you happen to be non-violent about it is completely irrelevant! Violence isn’t what determines what is hateful. And the fact that you can’t even understand this simple fact is yet ANOTHER example of just how unqualified you are to speak intelligently about this. What ideas have I expressed?
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Post by djorno on Feb 18, 2023 23:28:18 GMT
No. Just because somebody disagrees with something, does not make them hateful. Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia! Do you not condemn Christianity and the bible? Guess that makes you hateful.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 18, 2023 23:28:49 GMT
Historically, women had no way of knowing they were barren until they were married multiple times, unless a doctor could diagnose it but even that is relatively recent. The fact is, a major component of marriage was the rearing of children. Marriage was a social contract between a man and a woman that carried some expectations, for example the man would provide a home and food, and the woman would be monogamous. As a rule, ancient worlds benefitted from population growth and it is nature. As for modern marriage, I say let whoever wants to marry, marry. 2 dudes, 3 women, 1 dude and 10 women, 1 woman and 10 guys, whatever floats your boat. But I'm not interested in "gay rights" or bullshit like that. We don't need laws that say gay people can marry, we need to laws that say anyone can marry. War had much more to do with it as anything, because it’s nature for the male of the species to spread his DNA by destroying the male competition before they can reproduce offspring. Population is certainly beneficial for warfare, at most times and places in history. But it's also important for political power which is gained by controlling population. That's why the Catholics forbid birth control and abortion. War is a social activity, the competition for territory/resources. If men just wanted to kill other men, we would all be psychopaths.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 18, 2023 23:36:11 GMT
I believe we are all predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. This makes sense even from an evolutionary perspective. Offering your beliefs with no data and no support from the scientific community is not only ignorant, but it’s also harmful. But you just did the same thing. There wasn't even one citation of a peer reviewed paper in your post. note, I have studied biology and if you post a citation, I will vet the authors and peer review status, then read it. I'm telling you that so you know that linking to a random study you googled and haven't read doesn't make you in the right.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 18, 2023 23:38:47 GMT
Only when you wish violence or death upon them. We do not. No, not ONLY when you express violence or death upon them. The ideas YOU express about them are also homophobic and hateful. The fact that you happen to be non-violent about it is completely irrelevant! Violence isn’t what determines what is hateful. And the fact that you can’t even understand this simple fact is yet ANOTHER example of just how unqualified you are to speak intelligently about this. People aren't obligated to like you or approve of your life. They are only obligated to not discriminate based on protected statuses.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 18, 2023 23:54:37 GMT
Offering your beliefs with no data and no support from the scientific community is not only ignorant, but it’s also harmful. But you just did the same thing. There wasn't even one citation of a peer reviewed paper in your post. note, I have studied biology and if you post a citation, I will vet the authors and peer review status, then read it. I'm telling you that so you know that linking to a random study you googled and haven't read doesn't make you in the right. So first of all, my post wasn’t intended to PROVE anything or CONVINCE anyone of anything! It was intended to point out that there is no rational justification for accepting djorno opinion as though it’s scientific, credible, valid, useful, or loving. That’s the point here! You didn’t ask him for peer-reviewed anything before mindlessly guzzling his nonsense. But when I point out the nonsense, now all of a sudden you want citations? Go fuck yourself! I’m not convinced that ANY of you are good faith actors here, so why would I waste my time trying to convince any of you of things (that you could easily validate yourself via a simple google search). If you actually gave the first shit about the facts or the scientific consensus regarding psychosexual development, you’d have “vetted” the OP’s assertions, but you didn’t! So don’t give me your “I’ve studied biology” bullshit. A lot of people study biology, but what did you fucking learn is the question? I’ve studied biology, sociology, anthropology, and psychology. I’ve already stated many of the things that I’ve learned here. You don’t have to believe me, and I wouldn’t waste my time trying to convince you either because that wasn’t the fucking point of the response. IF you are serious about examining the propositional content related to my statements about psychosexual development and the scientific consensus regarding sexual orientation, then send me a private message and I’ll share with you. But I’m not going to do it publicly.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 18, 2023 23:58:56 GMT
No, not ONLY when you express violence or death upon them. The ideas YOU express about them are also homophobic and hateful. The fact that you happen to be non-violent about it is completely irrelevant! Violence isn’t what determines what is hateful. And the fact that you can’t even understand this simple fact is yet ANOTHER example of just how unqualified you are to speak intelligently about this. People aren't obligated to like you or approve of your life. They are only obligated to not discriminate based on protected statuses. People aren’t obligated to do ANYTHING other than what the law requires of them. You can be a complete asshole to everyone you know, and nothing obligates you to be nice to anyone. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, antisemitism, and every other form of bigotry including hate speech is perfectly legal my friend! The conversation isn’t about “obligation”, it’s about what constitutes “hate”.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 19, 2023 0:03:40 GMT
No, not ONLY when you express violence or death upon them. The ideas YOU express about them are also homophobic and hateful. The fact that you happen to be non-violent about it is completely irrelevant! Violence isn’t what determines what is hateful. And the fact that you can’t even understand this simple fact is yet ANOTHER example of just how unqualified you are to speak intelligently about this. What ideas have I expressed? I’m not here to remind you of how shitty you are. You know goddamn well what you’ve posted in the past (about hating the sin), and other people who frequent this forum do as well. There’s literally no point in you asking me what ideas you’ve expressed here you dishonest POS!
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Post by Sarge on Feb 19, 2023 0:12:34 GMT
But you just did the same thing. There wasn't even one citation of a peer reviewed paper in your post. note, I have studied biology and if you post a citation, I will vet the authors and peer review status, then read it. I'm telling you that so you know that linking to a random study you googled and haven't read doesn't make you in the right. Go fuck yourself! Whether you are correct or not doesn't matter if you haven't investigated the science yourself, if all you do is repost crap from twitter and assume it's science because someone said so, you are no better than the person you are scolding. If you are going to call out people for not having science, you should be prepared to take your own medicine rather than pounding out a 3 paragraph defensive rant calling everyone else bad actors. There is a lot of garbage that gets paraded as "science" and a lot of real science that is misrepresented by the media. edit, to clarify, I'm not accusing you of reposting crap from twitter, I should have said if all one does is... My statement wasn't meant to be accusatory.
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 19, 2023 0:15:25 GMT
Nobody claimed that it did. The argument is that because people condemn homosexuality, that DOES make them hateful. It isn’t about “disagreeing” with somebody, it’s about your hateful stance towards the LGBTQ community. To imply that people are “broken” because of their same sex attraction is straight up EVIL. Their science or goodwill behind such statements. It’s rooted in homophobia! Do you not condemn Christianity and the bible? Guess that makes you hateful. Yeah, I do condemn it and yes I hate what Christianity represents because it’s absolutely sick. But here’s the thing genius…UNLIKE sexual orientation, religion actually IS a choice and unlike homosexuals, Christianity has doctrines that promote hate towards others. There are no homosexuals shoving homosexuality down anyone else’s throat. There are no LGBTQ campaigns out there trying to recruit and proselytize to make more LGBTQ people! Christianity on the other hand is about proselytizing and spreading ignorance and hate under the guise of love! Gay people aren’t harming anyone by being gay. Christians on the other hand ARE harming people (and they always have been). It’s not the gay agenda that I’m afraid of because that has no impact on anyone else who isn’t LGBTQ. The Christian agenda on the hand is often about taking people’s rights away, and has a real tangible impact on the lives of non-Christians. I’d be one thing if you motherfuckers simply practiced what you believed in private and kept your hate behind closed doors, generally speaking - you don’t. You indoctrinate entire generations into the same ideology so that you end up with a society of fools who deny science, promote magic, assert moral superiority, and condemn people who just want to be left alone. So yeah, I hate that shit! And that is the CORRECT attitude to have because the only thing necessary for the proposer of evil is for good men to do nothing! Tolerance is complicit. Hating things that are hateful, and refusing to tolerate intolerance doesn’t make you a bigot. On the contrary, it makes you rational and moral. People who are tolerant of hatred and bigotry are part of the problem!
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Post by Sarge on Feb 19, 2023 0:22:06 GMT
People aren't obligated to like you or approve of your life. They are only obligated to not discriminate based on protected statuses. People aren’t obligated to do ANYTHING other than what the law requires of them. You can be a complete asshole to everyone you know, and nothing obligates you to be nice to anyone. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, antisemitism, and every other form of bigotry including hate speech is perfectly legal my friend! The conversation isn’t about “obligation”, it’s about what constitutes “hate”. It has everything to do with obligation. If someone disapproves of whatever populist bullshit is trending on twitter the H word comes out as if it were a trump card and no further conversation is necessary. It drips with entitlement.
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