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Post by gadreel on Mar 1, 2023 23:45:01 GMT
Erjen is a lost cause, and quite likely a troll. I have seen you exhibit passion, compassion and intelligence. It is very hard for me to reconcile that with the damage you do to other members of Gods creation with your stance, and it is incomprehensible to me that you do not see it. I apologise for going off at you, I still think your last comment betrays that you are missing the point. Erjen is a lost cause. Coming from you that's a supreme compliment. About you not too you bubble head.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 1, 2023 23:47:46 GMT
Well, well. So you were. If you don't like magical thinking, what draws you to this board? He likes watching trolls like you flounder when they are called out on thier stupidity and empty heads? Oh, didn't you hear? He is actually a she.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 1, 2023 23:48:53 GMT
Erjen is a lost cause. Coming from you that's a supreme compliment. About you not too you bubble head. To, not too.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 1, 2023 23:52:22 GMT
He likes watching trolls like you flounder when they are called out on thier stupidity and empty heads? Oh, didn't you hear? He is actually a she. I can assure you paul is a man.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 2, 2023 0:00:11 GMT
Oh, didn't you hear? He is actually a she. I can assure you paul is a man. No, you really can't. You can tell me, but you can't assure me.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 2, 2023 0:06:06 GMT
Sadly, Clusim, like many people in Nazi Germany in 1930s has a blind allegiance to a dogmatic absolute system. She is enchanted by a Roman institution created in part to regain some control over a rapidly failing empire. Well far be it from me to chastise you for being harsh, I was already. I suspect there are some issues with allegiance versus congnitive thinking, I know for a fact Clusium has compassion, i'm really struggling to find out what the difference is here. I’m sure she does, but it’s easy to mouth off charity, but does she practice it? Judging by some of her comments, I don’t know. If the Church condemns it, I daresay that’s all she needs to form her opinion to match up with Church because she thinks that’s the only moral course. She was taught the Church is blessed by God to never fail in matters of faith. The fundamentalist Evangelicals believe the Bible itself is the direct word of God and must be strictly adhered to per their interpretation, since they obviously have the greater moral fiber and are the Real Christians, not the Roman Church. However both sets are okay with people being harmed if it’s all for the greater glory of God and the ultimate salvation of the world. Both Protestants and Catholics have histories of torturing and burning witches and heretics because they were sure the pain and flames themselves could purify the soul and give the utterly damned one last chance at salvation. This was their idea of love. And then there are all those wars fighting over who is the Real Christian. There is nothing wrong with with the teachings of Jesus, it’s the superstition and belief in actual fairytale like angels and demons at war with each other the Christians cannot let go of that turns them on occasion into monsters. And Jesus or Paul never said about 90% of what Christianity has become. I have put my faith to the test and faith failed.
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Post by clusium on Mar 2, 2023 0:09:21 GMT
gadreel to The Herald Erjen : gadreel to little ol' me: Seems you're no better than The Herald Erjen , eh? Perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror, gadreel . You are no better than anybody else. Maybe you are the one who is no different than the Germans in Nazi Germany. Have you ever thought about that...? Erjen is a lost cause, and quite likely a troll. I have seen you exhibit passion, compassion and intelligence. It is very hard for me to reconcile that with the damage you do to other members of Gods creation with your stance, and it is incomprehensible to me that you do not see it. I apologize for going off at you, I still think your last comment betrays that you are missing the point. Thank you.
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Post by clusium on Mar 2, 2023 0:12:14 GMT
Erjen is a lost cause, and quite likely a troll. I have seen you exhibit passion, compassion and intelligence. It is very hard for me to reconcile that with the damage you do to other members of Gods creation with your stance, and it is incomprehensible to me that you do not see it. I apologise for going off at you, I still think your last comment betrays that you are missing the point. Sadly, Clusim, like many people in Nazi Germany in 1930s has a blind allegiance to a dogmatic absolute system. She is enchanted by a Roman institution created in part to regain some control over a rapidly failing empire. And how about all of you? You guys are all attacking me for standing by views, even though I never attacked anybody, least of all anybody from the gay or lesbian community. Rather, you guys all seem hell-bent on censoring anybody who has a dissenting view. THAT is what it was like in Nazi Germany (& in the Communist USSR, for that matter).
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 2, 2023 0:24:39 GMT
Sadly, Clusim, like many people in Nazi Germany in 1930s has a blind allegiance to a dogmatic absolute system. She is enchanted by a Roman institution created in part to regain some control over a rapidly failing empire. And how about all of you? You guys are all attacking me for standing by views, even though I never attacked anybody, least of all anybody from the gay or lesbian community. Rather, you guys all seem hell-bent on censoring anybody who has a dissenting view. THAT is what it was like in Nazi Germany (& in the Communist USSR, for that matter). I’m not attacking you. You’re just cog in a wheel, it’s the wheel, which has precious little to do with Jesus, I’m attacking. Comparing the authoritarian churches to authoritarian politics is a legitimate intellectual exercise. Judging how the Churches played footsie with Hitler is a reason alone to compare it. You come here of your own free will. This is a debate forum, not a sanctuary for your faith. It’s not my place to confirm your belief system, particularly knowing as much about the Wheel as I do. If you think you’re being persecuted, then for the sake of your soul, you should leave, but you like being here and having these conversations, so no one is hell-bent on you.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 2, 2023 0:26:47 GMT
Well far be it from me to chastise you for being harsh, I was already. I suspect there are some issues with allegiance versus congnitive thinking, I know for a fact Clusium has compassion, i'm really struggling to find out what the difference is here. I’m sure she does, but it’s easy to mouth off charity, but does she practice it? Judging by some of her comments, I don’t know. If the Church condemns it, I daresay that’s all she needs to form her opinion to match up with Church because she thinks that’s the only moral course. She was taught the Church is blessed by God to never fail in matters of faith. The fundamentalist Evangelicals believe the Bible itself is the direct word of God and must be strictly adhered to per their interpretation, since they obviously have the greater moral fiber and are the Real Christians, not the Roman Church. However both sets are okay with people being harmed if it’s all for the greater glory of God and the ultimate salvation of the world. Both Protestants and Catholics have histories of torturing and burning witches and heretics because they were sure the pain and flames themselves could purify the soul and give the utterly damned one last chance at salvation. This was their idea of love. And then there are all those wars fighting over who is the Real Christian. There is nothing wrong with with the teachings of Jesus, it’s the superstition and belief in actual fairytale like angels and demons at war with each other the Christians cannot let go of that turns them on occasion into monsters. And Jesus or Paul never said about 90% of what Christianity has become. I have put my faith to the test and faith failed. Fair enough, and your story is one I hear every day. Interestingly I was raised atheist, and came to Christianity (despite what erjently needing a new brain says) through some pretty strange turns, I accept that my Christianity is far from mainstream, and I agree with a lot of what you say around the church and organised religion, and accept that by identifying as a Christian I take on the onus of at least trying to figure out the rationale behind the harder parts of the history of the church. Certianly I find it hard to accept that Jesus would condemn homosexuality, or encourage burning at the stake, so I have to reconcile my absolute unshakeable notion that God loves, with all the horrible stuff that is said about it and done in it's name, it's not easy, perhaps it's character building.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 2, 2023 0:31:42 GMT
Sadly, Clusim, like many people in Nazi Germany in 1930s has a blind allegiance to a dogmatic absolute system. She is enchanted by a Roman institution created in part to regain some control over a rapidly failing empire. And how about all of you? You guys are all attacking me for standing by views, even though I never attacked anybody, least of all anybody from the gay or lesbian community. Rather, you guys all seem hell-bent on censoring anybody who has a dissenting view. THAT is what it was like in Nazi Germany (& in the Communist USSR, for that matter). Again missing the point, the way it got to be like that, was that ordinary people towed the party line without thinking about the damage it was doing.
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Post by clusium on Mar 2, 2023 1:07:38 GMT
And how about all of you? You guys are all attacking me for standing by views, even though I never attacked anybody, least of all anybody from the gay or lesbian community. Rather, you guys all seem hell-bent on censoring anybody who has a dissenting view. THAT is what it was like in Nazi Germany (& in the Communist USSR, for that matter). I’m not attacking you. You’re just cog in a wheel, it’s the wheel, which has precious little to do with Jesus, I’m attacking. Comparing the authoritarian churches to authoritarian politics is a legitimate intellectual exercise. Judging how the Churches played footsie with Hitler is a reason alone to compare it. You come here of your own free will. This is a debate forum, not a sanctuary for your faith. It’s not my place to confirm your belief system, particularly knowing as much about the Wheel as I do. If you think you’re being persecuted, then for the sake of your soul, you should leave, but you like being here and having these conversations, so no one is hell-bent on you. Yes, this is a debate forum - about religion. There was one for LGBT, which I never even involved myself in. You guys keep accusing me of hating gay & lesbian people. I do not. But, I do not consider homosexual acts to be normal or natural either. I think that gay & lesbian people do need help, but, I do not think we help them when we tell them that it is just as normal as heterosexual activity is.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 2, 2023 2:28:15 GMT
I’m not attacking you. You’re just cog in a wheel, it’s the wheel, which has precious little to do with Jesus, I’m attacking. Comparing the authoritarian churches to authoritarian politics is a legitimate intellectual exercise. Judging how the Churches played footsie with Hitler is a reason alone to compare it. You come here of your own free will. This is a debate forum, not a sanctuary for your faith. It’s not my place to confirm your belief system, particularly knowing as much about the Wheel as I do. If you think you’re being persecuted, then for the sake of your soul, you should leave, but you like being here and having these conversations, so no one is hell-bent on you. Yes, this is a debate forum - about religion. There was one for LGBT, which I never even involved myself in. You guys keep accusing me of hating gay & lesbian people. I do not. But, I do not consider homosexual acts to be normal or natural either. I think that gay & lesbian people do need help, but, I do not think we help them when we tell them that it is just as normal as heterosexual activity is. We already know the hardline position, the question then is, is this position a good one or a bad one. Saying the Church absolutely knows best, just obey it, ends your part of the debate because there is nothing to add after the “absolutely.” What if you are wrong? Were all those lives lived in suffering worth it? If you are right, is it still worth it?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 2, 2023 18:53:34 GMT
Yes, this is a debate forum - about religion. There was one for LGBT, which I never even involved myself in. You guys keep accusing me of hating gay & lesbian people. I do not. But, I do not consider homosexual acts to be normal or natural either. I think that gay & lesbian people do need help, but, I do not think we help them when we tell them that it is just as normal as heterosexual activity is. We already know the hardline position, the question then is, is this position a good one or a bad one. Saying the Church absolutely knows best, just obey it, ends your part of the debate because there is nothing to add after the “absolutely.” What if you are wrong? Were all those lives lived in suffering worth it? If you are right, is it still worth it? Moreover she seems to be missing the point that the church changes it's mind frequently, and completely does not seem to understand that that is the very point of papal infallibility.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 2, 2023 19:15:17 GMT
clusiumIsn't it cute how they talk to each other, but it's really meant for you to read it and be influenced by it?
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Post by captainbryce on Mar 2, 2023 19:26:44 GMT
legalization of same-sex marriage? And oppose it if they live in a country where it is still not legal? I don't mean marching against it, or writing angry letters. I mean just being opposed in one's own mind. Or...is supporting the legalization of same-sex marriage not in conflict with being a good Christian? It depends on what you mean by “good Christian”. If by good Christian you mean a person who is morally and ethically good in terms of their humanity (advocating for the well being of humans and improving society by reducing suffering and promoting love and happiness) then obviously the answer is no. Because denying the rights of gay people to marry or love one another does not promote love or happiness and is inherently opposed to the goal of being “good”. However, if by “good Christian” you mean a Christian who is trying to follow the Bible as accurately as possible, then the answer is not only yes - but you should be going much further. A “good Christian” in this context should not only be fighting to outlaw gay marriage, but also to criminalize homosexuality in general and be advocating for the death penalty to gays (as commanded in scripture). It’s literally in the Bible that if a man lies with another man as with a woman, they are to be put to death. Jesus said to his disciples, if you love me keep the commandments! By tolerating gays in your society, you are putting humans first and Jesus second, which makes you a “bad Christian”. Fr Jack for example would be a good Christian in the first sense, and a terrible Christian in the second sense.
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Post by captainbryce on Mar 2, 2023 19:29:06 GMT
I’m not attacking you. You’re just cog in a wheel, it’s the wheel, which has precious little to do with Jesus, I’m attacking. Comparing the authoritarian churches to authoritarian politics is a legitimate intellectual exercise. Judging how the Churches played footsie with Hitler is a reason alone to compare it. You come here of your own free will. This is a debate forum, not a sanctuary for your faith. It’s not my place to confirm your belief system, particularly knowing as much about the Wheel as I do. If you think you’re being persecuted, then for the sake of your soul, you should leave, but you like being here and having these conversations, so no one is hell-bent on you. Yes, this is a debate forum - about religion. There was one for LGBT, which I never even involved myself in. You guys keep accusing me of hating gay & lesbian people. I do not. But, I do not consider homosexual acts to be normal or natural either. I think that gay & lesbian people do need help, but, I do not think we help them when we tell them that it is just as normal as heterosexual activity is. The “thoughts” of people who deny science but literally believe in magic ought not be taken seriously reasonable minds.
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Post by Isapop on Mar 2, 2023 20:07:42 GMT
legalization of same-sex marriage? And oppose it if they live in a country where it is still not legal? I don't mean marching against it, or writing angry letters. I mean just being opposed in one's own mind. Or...is supporting the legalization of same-sex marriage not in conflict with being a good Christian? It depends on what you mean by “good Christian”. What I meant by "good Christian" is what any responder defines for themselves as a good Christian. Naturally, I realized that there could well be disagreements among the Christians who respond.I would take issue with you there. Why couldn't such a Christian, the " Beware you adulterers, sodomites, etc. lest you taste God's fearful judgment" type of Christian also believe that punishing sinners is God's business and, thus, not fret over what the state does or doesn't prohibit? Such a Christian does seem a rarity*, but he would be intellectually consistent compared with all those Christians who are outraged that gay marriage is legal but show no outrage that so many other sins ARE legal. *Edit: JWs would be an example. They don't concern themselves over whether the state outlaws sin.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 2, 2023 20:31:11 GMT
clusium Isn't it cute how they talk to each other, but it's really meant for you to read it and be influenced by it? isn't it cute how you don't understand irony and hypocrisy? Or Christianity.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 2, 2023 20:37:47 GMT
legalization of same-sex marriage? And oppose it if they live in a country where it is still not legal? I don't mean marching against it, or writing angry letters. I mean just being opposed in one's own mind. Or...is supporting the legalization of same-sex marriage not in conflict with being a good Christian? It depends on what you mean by “good Christian”. If by good Christian you mean a person who is morally and ethically good in terms of their humanity (advocating for the well being of humans and improving society by reducing suffering and promoting love and happiness) then obviously the answer is no. Because denying the rights of gay people to marry or love one another does not promote love or happiness and is inherently opposed to the goal of being “good”. However, if by “good Christian” you mean a Christian who is trying to follow the Bible as accurately as possible, then the answer is not only yes - but you should be going much further. A “good Christian” in this context should not only be fighting to outlaw gay marriage, but also to criminalize homosexuality in general and be advocating for the death penalty to gays (as commanded in scripture). It’s literally in the Bible that if a man lies with another man as with a woman, they are to be put to death. Jesus said to his disciples, if you love me keep the commandments! By tolerating gays in your society, you are putting humans first and Jesus second, which makes you a “bad Christian”. Fr Jack for example would be a good Christian in the first sense, and a terrible Christian in the second sense. So here is the problem I have with those that rail against Christianity, I do not agree that the bible condemns homosexuality and, although I DO cherry pick (and in fact the bible is already cherry picked, Gospel of Thomas for a start), I understand that the references to homosexuality in the bible are not actually references to homosexuality. So as a good Christian (who actually takes the time to understand what is written) surely the rejection of homosexuality is an anathema ?
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