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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2023 4:11:04 GMT
Magneto wasn't their father originally, him being their father was the later retcon which ITSELF was undone later.
It was a mistake because having the entirety of the Marvel cast of characters be homogeneous is innately lazy, and nothing would've been changed if Xavier wasn't a white man. Heck, Magneto being white and Xavier being Black would've made for quite the dynamic back then.
They still made him their father and the relationship was written as such for a number of years and it made its way into other media like film, animation, video games, etc. Marvel may say that they originally didn't want to portray Magneto as their biological father and have in recent years written the twins as more like his adopted children, but most consumers still consider Magneto to be their actual father. It was 62 years ago when the Fantastic Four were first published and 60 for the X-Men, Timley had just rebranded itself as Marvel and the universe was still being figured out and developed by Lee and Kirby and neither of them are around to address such criticism. The Marvel universe had become more diverse in the years that had followed. It doesn't change that it was a retcon to start with and they were meant to be the children of Golden Age characters the Whizzer and Ms America before the Magneto thing.
After all, how many cared when J'san of Spartax was no longer Star-Lord's father? Or Bucky now being an adult contemporary of Steve Rogers and not his teenage sidekick he only met after joining the Army?
Yes, which still doesn't change that it was a bad idea to make things so homogeneous to start with and this mistake can be corrected now. No source material is above having flaws in it.
IE, if they make Wolverine a Metis I wouldn't mind it.
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Post by blockbusted on Mar 1, 2023 4:44:39 GMT
1. If I’m being honest, I haven’t read original comics, so I could be talking out of my anus here, but I still have a feeling that there is a way to make them black and still retain a lot of their characteristics like Professor X growing up in a more accepting society and Magneto growing up during the time of Apartheid. Keep in mind, their respective inspirations were Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. Like I’ve said, using Holocaust as an origin would not work quite well due to Holocaust survivors being too old and making Mutants aging slower wouldn’t really feel right either. 2. I kind of doubt that Marvel is going to do that since that might overcomplicate things. If anything, I feel like they’re saving original X-Men casts for ‘Secret Wars’ - but that’s my personal opinion.  Actually, Xavier and Magneto were not inspired by Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, that is a popular misconception given the decade of the 1960's. If anything, the two characters and their dynamic were influenced by Israeli Prime Minsters David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. Via Screenrant.com, linkWhy wouldn't having there be a gene that allows mutants to age slower be a bad thing? I think there are other ways to retain Magneto's canonical backstory and explain his presence in modern times, but other mutants, like Wolverine, have such a gene. Actually, saying Magneto is their father in one timeline but not in the other would be complicating things. The Tom Holland, Andrew Garfield, and Tobey Maguire Spider-Men are all very different from each other but they're still Peter Parker and are related to Ben and May Parker. I feel like “Mutants age slower” angle might come off as a cop-out, not to mention that there is bit of a stain of unaging character issues that was happening in previous ‘X-Men’ series with Magneto being the biggest example of it. |
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 1, 2023 4:54:01 GMT
Actually, Xavier and Magneto were not inspired by Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, that is a popular misconception given the decade of the 1960's. If anything, the two characters and their dynamic were influenced by Israeli Prime Minsters David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin. Via Screenrant.com, linkWhy wouldn't having there be a gene that allows mutants to age slower be a bad thing? I think there are other ways to retain Magneto's canonical backstory and explain his presence in modern times, but other mutants, like Wolverine, have such a gene. Actually, saying Magneto is their father in one timeline but not in the other would be complicating things. The Tom Holland, Andrew Garfield, and Tobey Maguire Spider-Men are all very different from each other but they're still Peter Parker and are related to Ben and May Parker. I feel like “Mutants age slower” angle might come off as a cop-out, not to mention that there is bit of a stain of unaging character issues that was happening in previous ‘X-Men’ series with Magneto being the biggest example of it. But such a thing wasn't really explained though. |
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 1, 2023 5:15:12 GMT
They still made him their father and the relationship was written as such for a number of years and it made its way into other media like film, animation, video games, etc. Marvel may say that they originally didn't want to portray Magneto as their biological father and have in recent years written the twins as more like his adopted children, but most consumers still consider Magneto to be their actual father. It was 62 years ago when the Fantastic Four were first published and 60 for the X-Men, Timley had just rebranded itself as Marvel and the universe was still being figured out and developed by Lee and Kirby and neither of them are around to address such criticism. The Marvel universe had become more diverse in the years that had followed. It doesn't change that it was a retcon to start with and they were meant to be the children of Golden Age characters the Whizzer and Ms America before the Magneto thing.
After all, how many cared when J'san of Spartax was no longer Star-Lord's father? Or Bucky now being an adult contemporary of Steve Rogers and not his teenage sidekick he only met after joining the Army?
Yes, which still doesn't change that it was a bad idea to make things so homogeneous to start with and this mistake can be corrected now. No source material is above having flaws in it.
IE, if they make Wolverine a Metis I wouldn't mind it.
That they were considered to be the children of Whizzer and Ms. America is irrelevant as the writers decided to have them be Magneto's biological children which lasted for 30+ years and was only retconned a few years ago and was basically a way to excuse the two characters from being affiliated with the X-Men as they were going to be in Age of Ultron and the X-Men rights were still with 20th Century FOX. Not as many people knew who Star-Lord or Bucky were before their appearance on the silver screens in the 2010's through the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Outside of the comic books, Bucky was largely absent from other media presenting Captain America and The Avengers, with only a small cameo in The Ultimates animation and being more fleshed out in the 2010 Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated series. It was there also where Star-Lord first appeared in another medium too (if you don't count his non-speaking cameo in Planet Hulk). The X-Men property has been brought into other mediums for a number of years and have enough content a person can be familiar enough with the property without having picked up a single comic book. Not a lot of people see it as a mistake, and think things are fine as they are. |
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Mar 1, 2023 7:48:36 GMT
I think The X-Men could reinvigorate the MCU but the MCU will need to change the way it operates. It needs better writing. Also it needs to stop the heavy partisan political preaching. I hope you hate the movie and feel it ruins your childhood. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Mar 1, 2023 9:48:54 GMT
I think The X-Men could reinvigorate the MCU but the MCU will need to change the way it operates. It needs better writing. Also it needs to stop the heavy partisan political preaching. I hope you hate the movie and feel it ruins your childhood. That’s your highest priority. You don’t even care whether you enjoy the film. |
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Post by charzhino on Mar 1, 2023 10:04:09 GMT
Excuses. Strange still overcame Dormamu on his own. Thor turns the tide against Hela on his own, when he has the dedicated power up scene in his flashback with his father. He didnt need an inferior supporting cast to overcome Hela in the final fight. Unlike in the newer movies where zombie Strange and Thor are getting manhandlded by their villains, and need outside help from strong Wahmen to turn the tide. Even Antman in the new movie needed Wasp to defeat Kang after he was smashing Antman. Hmm I see a pattern developing. Thor got his ass beat by Hela. They had to summon Surtur to defeat her. Heroes not being able to get a clean win against the villains has been a problem for a while now. They're never allowed to win alone anymore.
He didnt need another supporting inferior hero to turn the tables though thats the point. He initially overcame Helas power through his own hidden power. Then when he realized he couldnt defeat her, he called upon a more powerful heel to destroy the main heel. Its very different from relying on a inferior hero, like America Chavez or Lady Thor or Wasp to do the hero-ing. |
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Post by charzhino on Mar 1, 2023 10:19:46 GMT
Dr Strange didn't defeat Dormammu, he stalemated him using a technicality on his ownFixed. Thor overcame Helas power on his own with his thunder power-up and then called on another powerful villain (which Thor already defeated earlier) to defeat the main villain, which is perfectly fine and very different from if say Valkyrie had killed Hela. Hela never beat Thor to the point he needed saving at the end. The newer movies are seeding ideas in audiences heads that the main titular hero in their own movies cannot compete with villains without major assistance from their less powerful counterparts. It started from that ridiculous ending in IM3 when Pepper Potts defeated Killian instead of Tony - a storyline that went no where after that by the way. Nah, I just dont want them to look incompetent weaklings who get their asses kicked without their hand being held. Its almost reverse damsel in distress at this point. Watch Love and Thunder again, and youl clearly see Gorr kicks Thors ass, has him on the ground and about to stab him with his own thunder bolt, until Lady Thor has to come and save real Thor. And repeat that for Wasp and America Chavez. The minions are saving the heroes now instead of the other way round. Embarrassing. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2023 13:40:03 GMT
It doesn't change that it was a retcon to start with and they were meant to be the children of Golden Age characters the Whizzer and Ms America before the Magneto thing.
After all, how many cared when J'san of Spartax was no longer Star-Lord's father? Or Bucky now being an adult contemporary of Steve Rogers and not his teenage sidekick he only met after joining the Army?
Yes, which still doesn't change that it was a bad idea to make things so homogeneous to start with and this mistake can be corrected now. No source material is above having flaws in it.
IE, if they make Wolverine a Metis I wouldn't mind it.
That they were considered to be the children of Whizzer and Ms. America is irrelevant as the writers decided to have them be Magneto's biological children which lasted for 30+ years and was only retconned a few years ago and was basically a way to excuse the two characters from being affiliated with the X-Men as they were going to be in Age of Ultron and the X-Men rights were still with 20th Century FOX. Not as many people knew who Star-Lord or Bucky were before their appearance on the silver screens in the 2010's through the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Outside of the comic books, Bucky was largely absent from other media presenting Captain America and The Avengers, with only a small cameo in The Ultimates animation and being more fleshed out in the 2010 Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated series. It was there also where Star-Lord first appeared in another medium too (if you don't count his non-speaking cameo in Planet Hulk). The X-Men property has been brought into other mediums for a number of years and have enough content a person can be familiar enough with the property without having picked up a single comic book. Not a lot of people see it as a mistake, and think things are fine as they are. It's not irrelevant, it's just that a lot of folks don't know the full history of the characters.
So double standards. Being "lesser known" is no excuse. People knew Catwoman and Penguin's origins before "Batman Returns" but it didn't stop that story from changing them vastly.
They simply haven't seen how a different version could work where Xavier was black, because no one had the guts to try it yet.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2023 13:41:16 GMT
Thor got his ass beat by Hela. They had to summon Surtur to defeat her. Heroes not being able to get a clean win against the villains has been a problem for a while now. They're never allowed to win alone anymore.
He didnt need another supporting inferior hero to turn the tables though thats the point. He initially overcame Helas power through his own hidden power. Then when he realized he couldnt defeat her, he called upon a more powerful heel to destroy the main heel. Its very different from relying on a inferior hero, like America Chavez or Lady Thor or Wasp to do the hero-ing. So to you, being female makes them inferior?
Sorry, doesn't work like that.
Yes, Thor did need supporting people to help him. He needed Korg and Loki and Valkyrie in the movie.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2023 13:44:57 GMT
Dr Strange didn't defeat Dormammu, he stalemated him using a technicality on his ownFixed. Thor overcame Helas power on his own with his thunder power-up and then called on another powerful villain (which Thor already defeated earlier) to defeat the main villain, which is perfectly fine and very different from if say Valkyrie had killed Hela. Hela never beat Thor to the point he needed saving at the end. The newer movies are seeding ideas in audiences heads that the main titular hero in their own movies cannot compete with villains without major assistance from their less powerful counterparts. It started from that ridiculous ending in IM3 when Pepper Potts defeated Killian instead of Tony - a storyline that went no where after that by the way. Nah, I just dont want them to look incompetent weaklings who get their asses kicked without their hand being held. Its almost reverse damsel in distress at this point. Watch Love and Thunder again, and youl clearly see Gorr kicks Thors ass, has him on the ground and about to stab him with his own thunder bolt, until Lady Thor has to come and save real Thor. And repeat that for Wasp and America Chavez. The minions are saving the heroes now instead of the other way round. Embarrassing. He needed the Ancient One, Wong and Mordo to get to that point.
Uh-huh, but when Batman needed Catwoman to beat Bane it was fine?
Those aren't minions, those are partners and equals. Nothing wrong with the hero accepting others as their equals, as opposed to the boring way of the Hero being invincible.
Captain Kirk needing Spock and McCoy to win, that bad too?
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Post by Cat on Mar 1, 2023 17:12:57 GMT
Politics is what makes X-Men good. It just did it so well with its animated show that it snuck under children radar. It's probably the heaviest-handed of all the comic shows/groups I've seen for its messages about liberal v conservative, freedom v safety, bigotry, racism, xenophobia, you get the idea. Politics is what made X-Men feel important. If I wanted no politics at all I'd watch Superman rescue cats from trees.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 1, 2023 17:23:40 GMT
Thor got his ass beat by Hela. They had to summon Surtur to defeat her. Heroes not being able to get a clean win against the villains has been a problem for a while now. They're never allowed to win alone anymore.
He didnt need another supporting inferior hero to turn the tables though thats the point. He initially overcame Helas power through his own hidden power. Then when he realized he couldnt defeat her, he called upon a more powerful heel to destroy the main heel. Its very different from relying on a inferior hero, like America Chavez or Lady Thor or Wasp to do the hero-ing. He didn't need help, except when he needed help. Right....
No, it's not.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2023 17:53:02 GMT
Politics is what makes X-Men good. It just did it so well with its animated show that it snuck under children radar. It's probably the heaviest-handed of all the comic shows/groups I've seen for its messages about liberal v conservative, freedom v safety, bigotry, racism, xenophobia, you get the idea. Politics is what made X-Men feel important. If I wanted no politics at all I'd watch Superman rescue cats from trees.
While the politics in the animated X-Men show might seem heavy-handed compared to other comics or superhero cartoons of its time, compared to today's political climate it's ridiculously vanilla. If all socio-political messaging in modern shows was handled as subtly (and as objectively) as X-Men TAS handled it then we probably wouldn't be having such divisive political conversations about these modern shows. |
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Post by Cat on Mar 1, 2023 18:00:50 GMT
Politics is what makes X-Men good. It just did it so well with its animated show that it snuck under children radar. It's probably the heaviest-handed of all the comic shows/groups I've seen for its messages about liberal v conservative, freedom v safety, bigotry, racism, xenophobia, you get the idea. Politics is what made X-Men feel important. If I wanted no politics at all I'd watch Superman rescue cats from trees.
While the politics in the animated X-Men show might seem heavy-handed compared to other comics or superhero cartoons of its time, compared to today's political climate it's ridiculously vanilla. If all socio-political messaging in modern shows was handled as subtly (and as objectively) as X-Men TAS handled it then we probably wouldn't be having such divisive political conversations about these modern shows. We're just better at seeing it because we're adults. It's still the best example I know of where political messaging was so subversive that to be a fan of the show and to complain about political messaging is a contradiction. Compared to today, it just seems like more agreeable messaging because fans of the show at the time don't know how to admit it went over their heads because they were kids. Today's stuff isn't going over their heads so they feel lectured. |
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2023 19:40:30 GMT
While the politics in the animated X-Men show might seem heavy-handed compared to other comics or superhero cartoons of its time, compared to today's political climate it's ridiculously vanilla. If all socio-political messaging in modern shows was handled as subtly (and as objectively) as X-Men TAS handled it then we probably wouldn't be having such divisive political conversations about these modern shows. We're just better at seeing it because we're adults. It's still the best example I know of where political messaging was so subversive that to be a fan of the show and to complain about political messaging is a contradiction. Compared to today, it just seems like more agreeable messaging because fans of the show at the time don't know how to admit it went over their heads because they were kids. Today's stuff isn't going over their heads so they feel lectured. I have to disagree there. The politics in X-Men TAS were objectively a lot more subtle than the politics we get in modern-day shows, regardless of the age of the viewer. |
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Post by Cat on Mar 1, 2023 19:48:45 GMT
We're just better at seeing it because we're adults. It's still the best example I know of where political messaging was so subversive that to be a fan of the show and to complain about political messaging is a contradiction. Compared to today, it just seems like more agreeable messaging because fans of the show at the time don't know how to admit it went over their heads because they were kids. Today's stuff isn't going over their heads so they feel lectured. I have to disagree there. The politics in X-Men TAS were objectively a lot more subtle than the politics we get in modern-day shows, regardless of the age of the viewer. That probably depends on you. I can't speak to what all people see in the material, but it seemed clear to me, for example, that the debate over curing the mutant gene and doubling down on being fine the way you are was a metaphor for conversion therapy. Charles and Magneto have always been the liberal and conservative counterpoints to each other.
Objectively is a strong word when a lot of it depends on the viewer. Someone to whom these issues aren't interesting or don't apply may never see it. I'm Jewish so all the stuff about segregation and bigotry toward mutants hit me right away.
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Post by Power Ranger on Mar 1, 2023 19:49:36 GMT
We're just better at seeing it because we're adults. It's still the best example I know of where political messaging was so subversive that to be a fan of the show and to complain about political messaging is a contradiction. Compared to today, it just seems like more agreeable messaging because fans of the show at the time don't know how to admit it went over their heads because they were kids. Today's stuff isn't going over their heads so they feel lectured. I have to disagree there. The politics in X-Men TAS were objectively a lot more subtle than the politics we get in modern-day shows, regardless of the age of the viewer. Yeah. Even Bryan Singer’s X-Men films were gayer than Sam Smith’s ass and that wasn’t as preachy as the MCU has become. Most on the right today aren’t anti-gay. The gay-friendly elements of the X-Men isn’t what I’m talking about. |
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Post by Cat on Mar 1, 2023 19:53:21 GMT
I have to disagree there. The politics in X-Men TAS were objectively a lot more subtle than the politics we get in modern-day shows, regardless of the age of the viewer. Yeah. Even Bryan Singer’s X-Men films were gayer than Sam Smith’s ass and that wasn’t as preachy as the MCU has become. Most on the right today aren’t anti-gay. The gay-friendly elements of the X-Men isn’t what I’m talking about. You mean you don't disagree with it enough for it to be preachy? |
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Post by Power Ranger on Mar 1, 2023 20:02:07 GMT
Yeah. Even Bryan Singer’s X-Men films were gayer than Sam Smith’s ass and that wasn’t as preachy as the MCU has become. Most on the right today aren’t anti-gay. The gay-friendly elements of the X-Men isn’t what I’m talking about. You mean you don't disagree with it enough for it to be preachy? I don’t mind gay characters but it shouldn’t be too overt in something aimed at kids. Stuff like the She-Ra reboot I was critical of because She-Ra was an established character who was heterosexual and was sexuality swapped and the creator of the show said that she tried to make every character in the show queer. So I may be open-minded but I have limits. |
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