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Post by rizdek on Mar 25, 2023 17:49:25 GMT
there can be no objective morality.
Can anyone explain why subjective morality would be a problem?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 17:57:45 GMT
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 25, 2023 18:06:28 GMT
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Mar 25, 2023 18:16:45 GMT
I am probably wrong, but would it not be easy to prove if morality comes from God.
You could do a a big experiment. lasting lets say 20-30 years, where you take
You take lets say 5000 new born babies, and put 2500 newborns in one location and 2500 newborns in another location, on one location they learn about God, religion and all that stuff, about how morality comes from God. But the other 2500 newborns , they never learn about God or religion.
I don`t think such an experiment should happen, because it would be morally wrong to take 5000 babies away from from their parents and use them in an experiment, but i do think this would be a way to find out if you need God/religion to have morality, because if the 2500 newborns who never learned about God or religion have a concept of morality when they are adults, than that would prove that you don`t need God or religion to have morality.
But such an experiment would be immoral in itself.
This may also be the stupides idea i have had. Its probably the stupides idea i have had.
I know what i wrote here is BS
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Post by clusium on Mar 25, 2023 19:31:16 GMT
I am probably wrong, but would it not be easy to prove if morality comes from God. You could do a a big experiment. lasting lets say 20-30 years, where you take You take lets say 5000 new born babies, and put 2500 newborns in one location and 2500 newborns in another location, on one location they learn about God, religion and all that stuff, about how morality comes from God. But the other 2500 newborns , they never learn about God or religion. I don`t think such an experiment should happen, because it would be morally wrong to take 5000 babies away from from their parents and use them in an experiment, but i do think this would be a way to find out if you need God/religion to have morality, because if the 2500 newborns who never learned about God or religion have a concept of morality when they are adults, than that would prove that you don`t need God or religion to have morality. But such an experiment would be immoral in itself. This may also be the stupides idea i have had. Its probably the stupides idea i have had. I know what i wrote here is BS Take it a step further, & do not even teach those 2,500 newborns the Laws of the Land, etc.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 25, 2023 19:43:33 GMT
rizdekForgot to mention, I really don't enjoy long drawn-out set piece battles with heathens. I can feel what's left of my life draining away whenever I get into one of those. You might want to tag Arlon10. He seems to like them. Me, I'm more hit-and-run, like a guerilla.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 25, 2023 20:39:49 GMT
I am probably wrong, but would it not be easy to prove if morality comes from God. You could do a a big experiment. lasting lets say 20-30 years, where you take You take lets say 5000 new born babies, and put 2500 newborns in one location and 2500 newborns in another location, on one location they learn about God, religion and all that stuff, about how morality comes from God. But the other 2500 newborns , they never learn about God or religion. I don`t think such an experiment should happen, because it would be morally wrong to take 5000 babies away from from their parents and use them in an experiment, but i do think this would be a way to find out if you need God/religion to have morality, because if the 2500 newborns who never learned about God or religion have a concept of morality when they are adults, than that would prove that you don`t need God or religion to have morality. But such an experiment would be immoral in itself. This may also be the stupides idea i have had. Its probably the stupides idea i have had. I know what i wrote here is BS It’s not bad method other than the untenable human element involved. An easier experiment is to study the morality of cultures and individuals who are not Muslim, Christian, or Jewish and compare them with the Abrahamic cultures and people. Frankly, it should be easy to map American Christians’ moral/ethnical claims of success against the actual history.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 25, 2023 20:43:08 GMT
I am probably wrong, but would it not be easy to prove if morality comes from God. You could do a a big experiment. lasting lets say 20-30 years, where you take You take lets say 5000 new born babies, and put 2500 newborns in one location and 2500 newborns in another location, on one location they learn about God, religion and all that stuff, about how morality comes from God. But the other 2500 newborns , they never learn about God or religion. I don`t think such an experiment should happen, because it would be morally wrong to take 5000 babies away from from their parents and use them in an experiment, but i do think this would be a way to find out if you need God/religion to have morality, because if the 2500 newborns who never learned about God or religion have a concept of morality when they are adults, than that would prove that you don`t need God or religion to have morality. But such an experiment would be immoral in itself. This may also be the stupides idea i have had. Its probably the stupides idea i have had. I know what i wrote here is BS Take it a step further, & do not even teach those 2,500 newborns the Laws of the Land, etc. Are Buddhists all failed immorally because they don’t believe in God?
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Post by djorno on Mar 25, 2023 20:54:43 GMT
there can be no objective morality.
Can anyone explain why subjective morality would be a problem? In my opinion it’s incoherent and makes morality pretty meaningless.
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Post by clusium on Mar 25, 2023 21:11:44 GMT
Take it a step further, & do not even teach those 2,500 newborns the Laws of the Land, etc. Are Buddhists all failed immorally because they don’t believe in God? Buddhism is actually a polytheistic religion. They just do not believe in a Supreme Creator.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 25, 2023 21:17:31 GMT
Well actually I have heard atheists argue for objective morality (Sam Harris comes to mind), though I don't think secular arguments for objective morality are particularly good either, it's either an appeal to nature (which is fallacious) or appeal to science, which is a pointless endeavor since science is concerned only with descriptive claims, no prescriptive, you can't "scientifically" prove murder is wrong.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 25, 2023 21:19:21 GMT
Are Buddhists all failed immorally because they don’t believe in God? Buddhism is actually a polytheistic religion. They just do not believe in a Supreme Creator. It’s not a requirement, but my point is, it is not Christian morality. And there are nations where the population is essentially atheist, so are the Scandinavian nations less moral than America? Name the decade the USA as a nation lived up to its high minded moral claims?
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Post by clusium on Mar 25, 2023 21:22:58 GMT
Buddhism is actually a polytheistic religion. They just do not believe in a Supreme Creator. It’s not a requirement, but my point is, it is not Christian morality. And there are nations where the population is essentially atheist, so are the Scandinavian nations less moral than America? Name the decade the USA as a nation lived up to its high minded moral claims? There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 25, 2023 21:24:56 GMT
Well actually I have heard atheists argue for objective morality (Sam Harris comes to mind), though I don't think secular arguments for objective morality are particularly good either, it's either an appeal to nature (which is fallacious) or appeal to science, which is a pointless endeavor since science is concerned only with descriptive claims, no prescriptive, you can't "scientifically" prove murder is wrong. Science has constants and variables, objective reality is only that which can back with some rationale and evidence within certain models. It is an objective reality the Earth is a sphere, not a flat disk. And it revolves around the Sun, not the other way around. It is an objective reality the Earth is billions of years old, but just how old is subjective because we don’t have all the data in yet to pin down a close to reality number.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 25, 2023 21:28:53 GMT
It’s not a requirement, but my point is, it is not Christian morality. And there are nations where the population is essentially atheist, so are the Scandinavian nations less moral than America? Name the decade the USA as a nation lived up to its high minded moral claims? There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions. So you’re saying America was never a Christian nation, since our morality does not come even close to being as good as the atheist Scandinavians.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Mar 25, 2023 21:37:13 GMT
It’s not a requirement, but my point is, it is not Christian morality. And there are nations where the population is essentially atheist, so are the Scandinavian nations less moral than America? Name the decade the USA as a nation lived up to its high minded moral claims? There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions. Yes and the Scandinavian countries all became a lot better after they became secularized.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Mar 25, 2023 22:08:36 GMT
There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions. Yes and the Scandinavian countries all became a lot better after they became secularized. Better? That sounds rather subjective.
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Post by clusium on Mar 25, 2023 23:58:01 GMT
There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions. So you’re saying America was never a Christian nation, since our morality does not come even close to being as good as the atheist Scandinavians. From my understanding the USA (I'm Canadian, BTW) has separation between church & state. One is not supposed to interfere with the other, south of the border.
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Post by clusium on Mar 25, 2023 23:59:08 GMT
There are all different kinds of morality, which stemmed from different religious backgrounds. Scandinavia may be secularized right now, but they were devoutly Christian at one time, & before them had their pre-christian pagan religions. Yes and the Scandinavian countries all became a lot better after they became secularized. Perhaps. But, I'm pretty certain that Scandinavian countries still have law enforcement, in order to prevent crime from occurring.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Mar 26, 2023 0:05:26 GMT
Yes and the Scandinavian countries all became a lot better after they became secularized. Perhaps. But, I'm pretty certain that Scandinavian countries still have law enforcement, in order to prevent crime from occurring. Do you think secular means 100% free of crime?
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