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Post by captainbryce on Apr 29, 2023 5:35:34 GMT
Should abortion be allowed in the States again. Explain. I’m pro abortion. It should be legal everywhere. The fact that states are banning it is absurdity!
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Apr 29, 2023 18:43:13 GMT
Should abortion be allowed in the States again. Explain. I’m pro abortion. It should be legal everywhere. The fact that states are banning it is absurdity! How is it absurd to protect the most innocent and defenseless humans amongst us?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2023 20:48:48 GMT
I’m pro abortion. It should be legal everywhere. The fact that states are banning it is absurdity! How is it absurd to protect the most innocent and defenseless humans amongst us? What defines us as humans is our brain capacity, our ability to reason, our self awareness. Through most its stages, a foetus has none of these.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Apr 29, 2023 21:47:12 GMT
How is it absurd to protect the most innocent and defenseless humans amongst us? What defines us as humans is our brain capacity, our ability to reason, our self awareness. Through most its stages, a foetus has none of these. Based on that definition a person on life support is not a human. Biologically a human life begins at conception. A foetus is just a human at a particular stage of it’s development. It’s not a matter of size, skill or degree of intelligence. It’s not a potential human, but an actual human with its own unique DNA. Something non-human does not become human by getting older, bigger or smarter. Whatever is human must be human from the beginning. Btw there are thought processes at work in unborn babies. This is a scientific fact.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 29, 2023 22:46:57 GMT
The level of patronising male privilege in the thread is staggering.
If a woman has been raped she shouldn't need to jump through hoops to satisfy some morality police that she "qualifies" for an abortion so she doesn't have to carry her rapist's child to term. And if the easiest way to achieve that means that you have to let other women have control over their own bodies rather than telling them what they can and can't do with them, that's hardly a huge sacrifice.
All the "good Christian" women out there won't be queuing up for abortions anyway will they? So it'll only be "godless sinners" that would be wanting to "cheat the system" and don't you religious guys ever get bored of pushing your morality on people that really aren't interested in it?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2023 22:51:49 GMT
What defines us as humans is our brain capacity, our ability to reason, our self awareness. Through most its stages, a foetus has none of these. Based on that definition a person on life support is not a human. That depends entirely on whether or not there is brain activity. Someone who is on life support where there is no brain activity is basically being kept alive in order to harvest organs. Human life has its beginning at conception, yes (or really, the sperm and the egg), but that doesn't mean it's human yet. A knife begins with iron ore, but the ore does not have the same value as the worked steel, let alone the finished knife. Not until week 8, and even at that stage it is so rudimentary that it is nowhere near sentience. A baby is, in fact, not conscious until it is born, because the low levels of oxygen it gets in the womb keeps it effectively sedated. And prior to birth, no personality will have had a chance to form, because there are no social interactions. In short, a foetus has, at most, an animal level of intelligence. A fully mature cow has more intelligence, more awareness, and yet I do not quite picture you insisting "beef is murder". So what you're objecting to is the removal of a potential. A mature cow, after all, has realised all the potential she's going to, but an unborn child, why that could be the next Mozart for all we know. True enough. But it could also be the next Dahmer. In any event, lamenting the loss of potential is sentimental thinking. It does not affect the foetus in any way, as it certainly does not bemoan its youth. It is for the parents to decide the extent to which the loss of an unborn child is to be lamented. Also: throughout the ages, whenever a woman has miscarried, the unborn child has simply been disposed of unceremoniously. Burying it in the back yard has been common practice in the past. These days there are options for a funeral service, but it is by no means mandatory. Why is that, if an unborn child has the same value as a post natal child?
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Apr 29, 2023 23:10:11 GMT
Based on that definition a person on life support is not a human. That depends entirely on whether or not there is brain activity. Someone who is on life support where there is no brain activity is basically being kept alive in order to harvest organs. Human life has its beginning at conception, yes (or really, the sperm and the egg), but that doesn't mean it's human yet. A knife begins with iron ore, but the ore does not have the same value as the worked steel, let alone the finished knife. Not until week 8, and even at that stage it is so rudimentary that it is nowhere near sentience. A baby is, in fact, not conscious until it is born, because the low levels of oxygen it gets in the womb keeps it effectively sedated. And prior to birth, no personality will have had a chance to form, because there are no social interactions. In short, a foetus has, at most, an animal level of intelligence. A fully mature cow has more intelligence, more awareness, and yet I do not quite picture you insisting "beef is murder". So what you're objecting to is the removal of a potential. A mature cow, after all, has realised all the potential she's going to, but an unborn child, why that could be the next Mozart for all we know. True enough. But it could also be the next Dahmer. In any event, lamenting the loss of potential is sentimental thinking. It does not affect the foetus in any way, as it certainly does not bemoan its youth. It is for the parents to decide the extent to which the loss of an unborn child is to be lamented. Also: throughout the ages, whenever a woman has miscarried, the unborn child has simply been disposed of unceremoniously. Burying it in the back yard has been common practice in the past. These days there are options for a funeral service, but it is by no means mandatory. Why is that, if an unborn child has the same value as a post natal child? What species is an zygote/foetus? When a person kills a pregnant woman why do they get charged with double homicide?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2023 23:13:53 GMT
The level of patronising male privilege in the thread is staggering. Huh? Most guys in this thread are pro choice. And the pro life people here, I don't know whether most of them are male or female. And no one has been patronising. "My body, my choice" is an argument that only appeals to the pro choice crowd - no one else. The reason for that is that the pro life crowd actually agrees with that sentiment - but it's not your body they are talking about. You're not the one being aborted, so the argument is moot, as it fails to address their concerns. They are of the position that a foetus, even a zygote, has the same value as a human being. And if I felt the same way, I'd be pro life as well. No argument could possibly justify the destruction of an innocent human being, and under that framework, every abortion is one of convenience. Not wanting to carry a rapist's child to term does not justify murder. So "my body, my choice" fails to convince. What you should do instead is focus on explaining why it isn't murder, because that's where the battleground is. So the only reason you care about the issue is because you are personally affected? You never care about things that happen to other people? If a different state decided to introduce human sacrifice, you'd just say "you do you"?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Apr 29, 2023 23:25:18 GMT
What species is an zygote/foetus? I don't care. An unborn child is no more a philosopher than an unborn rabbit. Not in all states, it isn't. And the US is famous for inventing crimes for the purpose of having an excuse to increase severity of sentencing. For example, in Texas you are required by law to give your victim at least 24 hours notice of whatever crime you intend to inflict on them. It's that sort of thing which makes the rest of the world view the US as kind of the Middle East of the West.
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Apr 30, 2023 1:25:38 GMT
What defines us as humans is our brain capacity, our ability to reason, our self awareness. Through most its stages, a foetus has none of these. Based on that definition a person on life support is not a human. Biologically a human life begins at conception. A foetus is just a human at a particular stage of it’s development. It’s not a matter of size, skill or degree of intelligence. It’s not a potential human, but an actual human with its own unique DNA. Something non-human does not become human by getting older, bigger or smarter. Whatever is human must be human from the beginning. Btw there are thought processes at work in unborn babies. This is a scientific fact. So how come we don't count a fetus in the census until after it's born? How come we say "we have two kids and one on the way" instead of "we have three kids"? Why is killing a fetus not infanticide until after it's out of the womb and has drawn it's first breath? Most importantly, why does the Catholic Church do everything to make sure mothers carry their baby to term (and protest at abortion clinics), yet do nothing to help a financially strained female once she has given birth?
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Post by Arlon10 on Apr 30, 2023 12:18:46 GMT
Suppose that suddenly a large number of women report being raped, dramatically increasing the rate of rape such that you believe most of them are lying. How can you tell which ones are telling the truth? Is it your intention to punish them all? What makes you think you can deprive anyone of privacy?
Desperate times call for desperate measures, according to the National Library of Medicine, only about 5% of unwanted pregnancies come from rape...so suddenly unwanted pregnancies from rape jump to 100%, a medical impossibility. Steps would HAVE to be taken to determine who is lying or all women would have to be locked up for their own protection since the number of rapists in the country increased 1000fold.
You seem terribly upset and I suppose for a good reason. Government cannot manage abortion well. It is beyond the purview of government. You seem to have difficulty accepting that fact. You cannot just lock everyone up.
Guess who has a better idea? The are many organizations with religious sponsorship that (politely) ask young women facing the difficult decision to have an abortion to please carry the child to term. There is no law against it.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 30, 2023 14:09:00 GMT
I’m pro abortion. It should be legal everywhere. The fact that states are banning it is absurdity! How is it absurd to protect the most innocent and defenseless humans amongst us? Oh please! It’s absurd because fertilized eggs are not fucking PEOPLE, that’s why. It’s not a conscious being and it has no rights, much less the right to usurp the body of an unwilling person. That’s literally called a parasite! It’s only the stupidity of modern religion which anthropomorphizes this clump of cells and pretends that’s it’s an “innocent” anything, despite adhering to a religious doctrine that begins with a presumption that all humans are guilty. This is the type of cognitive dissonance and kettle logic you guys employ. It’s a ridiculous belief system compounded by basic ignorance of human biology and reproduction, and I’m tired of people giving anti-choice birthers the credulity that this nonsensical position doesn’t deserve. You motherfuckers don’t give a rats ass about innocent babies! Absolutely nothing about the fanatical Christian right indicates that they believe in innocence, much less give a damn about children. There’s nothing in right-wing politics at all that addresses child welfare, child safety, child education, or reducing human suffering at the most basic level. The Christian right hates women, period! That’s the real issue here. It’s not about the fucking Bible or any of that bullshit, and it damn sure ain’t about anybody’s rights or innocence because religion isn’t about that. They simply don’t want women to have rights - just like they don’t want gay people to have rights, or trans people, or Muslims, or black people, or brown people! The anti-choice movement is also a largely RACIST movement at that as it negatively impacts the healthcare of more women of color than white women. And that’s by design!
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Apr 30, 2023 14:09:18 GMT
The level of patronising male privilege in the thread is staggering. If a woman has been raped she shouldn't need to jump through hoops to satisfy some morality police that she "qualifies" for an abortion so she doesn't have to carry her rapist's child to term. And if the easiest way to achieve that means that you have to let other women have control over their own bodies rather than telling them what they can and can't do with them, that's hardly a huge sacrifice. All the "good Christian" women out there won't be queuing up for abortions anyway will they? So it'll only be "godless sinners" that would be wanting to "cheat the system" and don't you religious guys ever get bored of pushing your morality on people that really aren't interested in it? You make a great point here. Why is always men who think they should decide these things? A man can always run away when he impregnates a girl - an allergy to responsibility. A woman can't. There seems to be an obsession about women carrying a fetus to term, but no thought to giving care to the newborn and the financial and emotional resources it take to raise it.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 30, 2023 14:18:12 GMT
Based on that definition a person on life support is not a human. No, you’ve got it backwards. A human on life support is not a PERSON! That’s what relevant here “personhood”, not species. If the person on life support has no cognitive or sentient functions, and they are not projected to survive but for continuous life support, then it’s the family that has the right to terminate their life! By YOUR logic, no one should ever be able to pull the plug on their loved one on life support. But it’s worse than that because at least a person on life support isn’t dependent on using someone else’s body to survive. That’s what a fetus is doing! I argue that it has even LESS rights than a person on life support who isn’t projected to survive. I don’t care! I only care about whether or not they have the qualities of “personhood”. And fetuses do not, much less embryos or fertilized eggs! No isn’t, and you have no idea what the fuck you’re even talking about right now.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 30, 2023 14:21:11 GMT
When a person kills a pregnant woman why do they get charged with double homicide? Because many laws are STUPID, and based on emotion rather than logic. That’s why they differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and get changed and amended over time.
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djorno
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Abortion
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Post by djorno on Apr 30, 2023 18:02:04 GMT
How is it absurd to protect the most innocent and defenseless humans amongst us? Oh please! It’s absurd because fertilized eggs are not fucking PEOPLE, that’s why. It’s not a conscious being and it has no rights, much less the right to usurp the body of an unwilling person. That’s literally called a parasite! It’s only the stupidity of modern religion which anthropomorphizes this clump of cells and pretends that’s it’s an “innocent” anything, despite adhering to a religious doctrine that begins with a presumption that all humans are guilty. This is the type of cognitive dissonance and kettle logic you guys employ. It’s a ridiculous belief system compounded by basic ignorance of human biology and reproduction, and I’m tired of people giving anti-choice birthers the credulity that this nonsensical position doesn’t deserve. You motherfuckers don’t give a rats ass about innocent babies! Absolutely nothing about the fanatical Christian right indicates that they believe in innocence, much less give a damn about children. There’s nothing in right-wing politics at all that addresses child welfare, child safety, child education, or reducing human suffering at the most basic level. The Christian right hates women, period! That’s the real issue here. It’s not about the fucking Bible or any of that bullshit, and it damn sure ain’t about anybody’s rights or innocence because religion isn’t about that. They simply don’t want women to have rights - just like they don’t want gay people to have rights, or trans people, or Muslims, or black people, or brown people! The anti-choice movement is also a largely RACIST movement at that as it negatively impacts the healthcare of more women of color than white women. And that’s by design! I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with wokeism.
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Apr 30, 2023 18:07:26 GMT
Oh please! It’s absurd because fertilized eggs are not fucking PEOPLE, that’s why. It’s not a conscious being and it has no rights, much less the right to usurp the body of an unwilling person. That’s literally called a parasite! It’s only the stupidity of modern religion which anthropomorphizes this clump of cells and pretends that’s it’s an “innocent” anything, despite adhering to a religious doctrine that begins with a presumption that all humans are guilty. This is the type of cognitive dissonance and kettle logic you guys employ. It’s a ridiculous belief system compounded by basic ignorance of human biology and reproduction, and I’m tired of people giving anti-choice birthers the credulity that this nonsensical position doesn’t deserve. You motherfuckers don’t give a rats ass about innocent babies! Absolutely nothing about the fanatical Christian right indicates that they believe in innocence, much less give a damn about children. There’s nothing in right-wing politics at all that addresses child welfare, child safety, child education, or reducing human suffering at the most basic level. The Christian right hates women, period! That’s the real issue here. It’s not about the fucking Bible or any of that bullshit, and it damn sure ain’t about anybody’s rights or innocence because religion isn’t about that. They simply don’t want women to have rights - just like they don’t want gay people to have rights, or trans people, or Muslims, or black people, or brown people! The anti-choice movement is also a largely RACIST movement at that as it negatively impacts the healthcare of more women of color than white women. And that’s by design! I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with wokeism. I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with reactionary ideals made to keep women and poor people in their place.
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djorno
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Abortion
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Post by djorno on Apr 30, 2023 19:45:16 GMT
I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with wokeism. I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with reactionary ideals made to keep women and poor people in their place. “Keep women in their place” because I care about the right to life of the unborn? Give your head a wobble my friend.
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Apr 30, 2023 20:09:11 GMT
I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with reactionary ideals made to keep women and poor people in their place. “Keep women in their place” because I care about the right to life of the unborn? Give your head a wobble my friend. It's actually woman and poor people. It's nice to hear that you care about the unborn, but nothing about the child after it's born. You have proven my point. Incidentally, are you a guy? Are you and your family well off? That would explain why you care so little about females and poor people. Did you notice the poll has many more people want abortion legalized?
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 30, 2023 21:09:43 GMT
Oh please! It’s absurd because fertilized eggs are not fucking PEOPLE, that’s why. It’s not a conscious being and it has no rights, much less the right to usurp the body of an unwilling person. That’s literally called a parasite! It’s only the stupidity of modern religion which anthropomorphizes this clump of cells and pretends that’s it’s an “innocent” anything, despite adhering to a religious doctrine that begins with a presumption that all humans are guilty. This is the type of cognitive dissonance and kettle logic you guys employ. It’s a ridiculous belief system compounded by basic ignorance of human biology and reproduction, and I’m tired of people giving anti-choice birthers the credulity that this nonsensical position doesn’t deserve. You motherfuckers don’t give a rats ass about innocent babies! Absolutely nothing about the fanatical Christian right indicates that they believe in innocence, much less give a damn about children. There’s nothing in right-wing politics at all that addresses child welfare, child safety, child education, or reducing human suffering at the most basic level. The Christian right hates women, period! That’s the real issue here. It’s not about the fucking Bible or any of that bullshit, and it damn sure ain’t about anybody’s rights or innocence because religion isn’t about that. They simply don’t want women to have rights - just like they don’t want gay people to have rights, or trans people, or Muslims, or black people, or brown people! The anti-choice movement is also a largely RACIST movement at that as it negatively impacts the healthcare of more women of color than white women. And that’s by design! I would give a proper response to this but quite frankly it would be pointless because you’re clearly someone brainwashed to the eyeballs with wokeism. It’s because you CAN’T give a proper response to this. You don’t actually have an argument or a case. You have absolutely NOTHING of substance to add because you’re asleep! So, since you’ve essentially conceded the discussion - I’ll rest my case on that alone.
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