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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 30, 2023 10:18:20 GMT
]The difference between respecting one's political leaders & worshipping God is, in the case of the former, if you strip away the political powers of said leader, they are exactly the same as the rest of us. Never the less one can compare the cult of personality which exists in N Korea to that which has existed for some believers and worshipping an anthropomorphic ideal which is their god. "A song. God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble." (Psalm 46 1) "Know It: God's omnipresence means that He is present everywhere, all the time. His presence is not limited by time or space. Because God created the universe, He is above all things and holds all things together (Colossians 1:17). How's the above words from scripture fit with your ideas then? Other opinions, by other believers, as one expects in such an unverifiable and unfalsifiable field, are readily available, viz: www.gotquestions.org/does-God-love-people-in-hell.html which as usual makes things a matter of creative exegesis rather than certainty. You assume that the 'Source of life' is good or bad, when science does not consider the Big Bang a moral choice by anything. You are fully entitled to your views about a supposed hell with all the threats. But I am fully entitled too: to laugh at them.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 30, 2023 10:25:17 GMT
Reincarnation seems problematic for an atheist given the reason he's an atheist to begin with. As already said, one can believe in reincarnation and lack belief in god since one is not contingent on the other. Personally I think mind, memory etc is just a manifestation of body. The main reason why one intuitively thinks they may be separate is because we are not aware of the process continuously working whereby flesh generates thought. Which only shows that any 'hell' is subjective. Yes quite right, I read too quickly there. However the point can be made that some of those believers, for whom hell (and heaven) are supposed part of the experience of death, still call death a 'sleep': For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep .1 THESS. 4.14. And while I fully appreciate that hell (heaven) are treated distinctly by scripture they are still, supposedly, a part of death overall. When one talks of driving one does not exclude parking from the experience.
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Post by clusium on Jun 30, 2023 14:39:41 GMT
]The difference between respecting one's political leaders & worshipping God is, in the case of the former, if you strip away the political powers of said leader, they are exactly the same as the rest of us. Never the less one can compare the cult of personality which exists in N Korea to that which has existed for some believers and worshipping an anthropomorphic ideal which is their god. "A song. God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble." (Psalm 46 1) "Know It: God's omnipresence means that He is present everywhere, all the time. His presence is not limited by time or space. Because God created the universe, He is above all things and holds all things together (Colossians 1:17). Other opinions, by other believers, as one expects in such an unverifiable and unfalsifiable field, are readily available, viz: www.gotquestions.org/does-God-love-people-in-hell.html which as usual makes things a matter of creative exegesis rather than certainty. True Particularly, under fanatical regimes, such as ISIS, ISIL, etc. Our Father Respects the wishes of those who do not wish to be in His Presence for all eternity, hence hell exists. Go right ahead. In regards to punishment: let's not forget that in regards to whether or not punishment exists in the next life, we have punishment in THIS LIFe for those who transgress the Law - even in free countries.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 30, 2023 14:55:40 GMT
Our Father Respects the wishes of those who do not wish to be in His Presence for all eternity, hence hell exists. Here you appear to know the mind of God when the Bible tells the faithful that no one, apart from the Holy Spirit, does. But as I have quoted already on this thread where scripture tells us that God is omnipresent, if we are to be believe this, one cannot ever be without His presence. Also, if burning in Hell for ever really is a sign of 'respect' from your purported deity, then I would hate to see the opposite. OK, but even if we drag this in, it is by no means as certain as standing before the pearly gates with St Peter weighing up my 'good' and 'naughty' marks, columns in his ledger..
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Post by clusium on Jun 30, 2023 15:06:17 GMT
Our Father Respects the wishes of those who do not wish to be in His Presence for all eternity, hence hell exists. Here you appear to know the mind of God when the Bible tells the faithful that no one, apart from the Holy Spirit, does. But as I have quoted already on this thread where scripture tells us that God is omnipresent, if we are to be believe this, one cannot ever be without His presence. Also, if burning in Hell for ever really is a sign of 'respect' from your purported deity, then I would hate to see the opposite. OK, but even if we drag this in, it is by no means as certain as standing before the pearly gates with St Peter weighing up my 'good' and 'naughty' marks, columns in his ledger.. Yes, God Is Omnipresent. However, hell was made by those evil entities that completed rejected Him, hence God Respects their wishes, & allowed them their own realm to suffer in.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 30, 2023 15:26:48 GMT
Here you appear to know the mind of God when the Bible tells the faithful that no one, apart from the Holy Spirit, does. But as I have quoted already on this thread where scripture tells us that God is omnipresent, if we are to be believe this, one cannot ever be without His presence. Also, if burning in Hell for ever really is a sign of 'respect' from your purported deity, then I would hate to see the opposite. OK, but even if we drag this in, it is by no means as certain as standing before the pearly gates with St Peter weighing up my 'good' and 'naughty' marks, columns in his ledger.. Yes, God Is Omnipresent. However, hell was made by those evil entities that completed rejected Him, hence God Respects their wishes, & allowed them their own realm to suffer in. In actual fact the Bible says your supposed God, not 'evil entities' created hell, initially for the punishment of the devil and his angels. (God knowing all, would naturally know what future use was coming)_ Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell (Colossians 1:16). John 1:3 says, “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” In addition God alone has the power to cast someone into hell (Luke 12:5)."fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell." So yours is an unfortunate apologist's answer. The idea that someone wishes hell 'on themselves' is just special pleading, or victim blaming, which aims to avoid the inconvenience of an allegedly all-good deity sending people into supposed eternal suffering for not pleasing or appreciating it enough. (Rev. 14:10; 20:15; cf. Matt. 25:41).
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 3, 2023 7:37:49 GMT
If you say that the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world enjoy a cult of personality akin to the severe, obligatory level seen in NK, I would argue not. Even the supporters of Trump do not ask for the death penalty for insulting the much loved Supreme Republican. And Patriotism, or love of country, is not the same thing at all. The difference between respecting one's political leaders & worshipping God is, in the case of the former, if you strip away the political powers of said leader, they are exactly the same as the rest of us. God Is the Source of all life that exists in the universe (multiverse). If you choose to reject the Source of life in the universe, then the Source of life will not Stop you from leaving His Eternal Presence. You can go to a state where He Is not Present - EVER!! However, you do so of your own volition. Because you reject the Presence Of the Source of life, you reject all that is Good in the universe, & thereby choose to live in a state of perpetual evil for all eternity. There is no love in hell. One stews in their own evil & hatred. Former friendships become eternal enemies with one another. Perhaps "presence" and the "awareness" of presence are two different things.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 3, 2023 13:41:45 GMT
Here you appear to know the mind of God when the Bible tells the faithful that no one, apart from the Holy Spirit, does. But as I have quoted already on this thread where scripture tells us that God is omnipresent, if we are to be believe this, one cannot ever be without His presence. Also, if burning in Hell for ever really is a sign of 'respect' from your purported deity, then I would hate to see the opposite. OK, but even if we drag this in, it is by no means as certain as standing before the pearly gates with St Peter weighing up my 'good' and 'naughty' marks, columns in his ledger.. Yes, God Is Omnipresent. However, hell was made by those evil entities that completed rejected Him, hence God Respects their wishes, & allowed them their own realm to suffer in. There you go LYING FOR JESUS, yet again. Nothing in the Bible alleges that hell was created by evil entities! On the contrary, it was in fact God who prepared hell for evil entities. Read the goddamn Bible and stop being dishonest. Matthew 25:41 (“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”) And God also created those evil entities, as well as evil itself according to Isaiah 45:7 (“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”) Either you don’t know your own Bible, or you don’t care what it has to say. Either way, it’s a problematic position for a Christian who’s entire worldview is based on the nonsense written in that book.
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Post by clusium on Jul 3, 2023 14:32:49 GMT
Yes, God Is Omnipresent. However, hell was made by those evil entities that completed rejected Him, hence God Respects their wishes, & allowed them their own realm to suffer in. There you go LYING FOR JESUS, yet again. Nothing in the Bible alleges that hell was created by evil entities! On the contrary, it was in fact God who prepared hell for evil entities. Read the goddamn Bible and stop being dishonest. Matthew 25:41 (“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”) And God also created those evil entities, as well as evil itself according to Isaiah 45:7 (“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”) Either you don’t know your own Bible, or you don’t care what it has to say. Either way, it’s a problematic position for a Christian who’s entire worldview is based on the nonsense written in that book. When have I ever lied on here? The following is an excerpt from an exorcist's diary: "But hell is the place of their own making. There is a well-known line among exorcists uttered by a demon during an exorcism. The priest was commanding the demons to go back to hell, the place which he said that God made for them. The demon replied, “You stupid priest. God didn’t make hell. He would never have thought of such a place. We made it.” This is why hell is so horrible; it was made by demons." From the blog of Msgr Stephen Rossetti. Demons Hate Hell ~ Msgr Stephen Rossetti's Blog
Did you ever lie, back when you claimed to be a Christian? Is that why you accuse other people of lying?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2023 19:05:13 GMT
When have I ever lied on here? You have certainly been inaccurate in claiming how hell was supposedly created. So who is right then, Rossetti or scripture "Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, i ncluding hell" (Colossians 1:16)), or as the good Captain already quoted “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”"(Matthew 25:41)? Creative exegesis and special pleading will be noted.
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Post by clusium on Jul 3, 2023 19:22:25 GMT
When have I ever lied on here? You have certainly been inaccurate in claiming how hell was supposedly created. So who is right then, Rossetti or scripture "Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, i ncluding hell" (Colossians 1:16)), or as the good Captain already quoted “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”"(Matthew 25:41)? Creative exegesis and special pleading will be noted. Who says that it was God Who prepared Hell? The demons prepared it for themselves.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2023 20:13:11 GMT
You have certainly been inaccurate in claiming how hell was supposedly created. So who is right then, Rossetti or scripture "Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, i ncluding hell" (Colossians 1:16)), or as the good Captain already quoted “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”"(Matthew 25:41)? Creative exegesis and special pleading will be noted. Who says that it was God Who prepared Hell? The demons prepared it for themselves. Scripture does. I just quoted where. "From Jesus’ words (Mat 25:41), we can ascertain that hell and the lake of fire were prepared in advance by God for Satan and his demons." www.christianity.com/wiki/heaven-and-hell/was-hell-created-because-satan-fell.html
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 3, 2023 20:13:25 GMT
When have I ever lied on here? Only every time you make some absurd assertion about Christianity that the Bible contradicts (like now). The following is an excerpt from an exorcist's diary 😂 I’m sorry, but I just can’t take this seriously. Cause ya know…magic isn’t real! 😉 More to the point, since when does an exorcists journal trump the Bible? 😏
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 3, 2023 20:16:38 GMT
Who says that it was God Who prepared Hell? The demons prepared it for themselves. Scripture does. I just quoted where. And she wonders I accuse her of lying. She it utterly incapable of having an honest conversation about this.
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Post by clusium on Jul 3, 2023 20:19:53 GMT
When have I ever lied on here? Only every time you make some absurd assertion about Christianity that the Bible contradicts (like now). The following is an excerpt from an exorcist's diary 😂 I’m sorry, but I just can’t take this seriously. Cause ya know…magic isn’t real! 😉 More to the point, since when does an exorcists journal trump the Bible? 😏 Nothing that I have ever posted, contradicts Sacred Scripture. Anyhow, you are supposedly an atheist now. So obviously you do not even believe the Bible anymore, do you?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2023 21:14:19 GMT
Nothing that I have ever posted, contradicts Sacred Scripture. Like when you say "Hell was made by those evil entities that completed (sic) rejected [God]" when scripture says quite clearly, that ""Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”?
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Post by clusium on Jul 3, 2023 21:20:55 GMT
Nothing that I have ever posted, contradicts Sacred Scripture. Like when you say "Hell was made by those evil entities that completed (sic) rejected [God]" when scripture says quite clearly, that ""Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”? And as I already asked, "Who said it was prepared By God.... ?"
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 3, 2023 21:31:36 GMT
Like when you say "Hell was made by those evil entities that completed (sic) rejected [God]" when scripture says quite clearly, that ""Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”? And as I already asked, "Who said it was prepared By God.... ?" If the eternal fire was "prepared for the devil and his angels" then who else but God would have prepared it for them when we are also told He created everything? Their mum? If I create a fire for the BBQ don't I have to prepare it? I don't think you are serious with this or just being wilfully dense. Here's some Christian speculation end expansion on this point to help you out : "God likely created this eternal fire sometime between the rebellion of Lucifer (Ezekiel 28:15-16) and his angels against God and His arrangement of the present universe that we physically inhabit (Genesis 1:3-31). ... if [some people] never believe in Jesus as the Divine King, they will go away to a place never prepared for human beings. This inhospitable place is the eternal lake of fire prepared for the devil and his fallen angels." thebiblesays.com/commentary/matt/matt-25/matthew-2541/
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Post by clusium on Jul 3, 2023 23:05:01 GMT
And as I already asked, "Who said it was prepared By God.... ?" If the eternal fire was "prepared for the devil and his angels" then who else but God would have prepared it for them when we are also told He created everything? Their mum? If I create a fire for the BBQ don't I have to prepare it? I don't think you are serious with this or just being wilfully dense. Here's some Christian speculation end expansion on this point to help you out : "God likely created this eternal fire sometime between the rebellion of Lucifer (Ezekiel 28:15-16) and his angels against God and His arrangement of the present universe that we physically inhabit (Genesis 1:3-31). ... if [some people] never believe in Jesus as the Divine King, they will go away to a place never prepared for human beings. This inhospitable place is the eternal lake of fire prepared for the devil and his fallen angels." thebiblesays.com/commentary/matt/matt-25/matthew-2541/ All it said was that hell was prepared for the devil & his angels. Didn't say that God Did it.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 4, 2023 13:30:18 GMT
Only every time you make some absurd assertion about Christianity that the Bible contradicts (like now). 😂 I’m sorry, but I just can’t take this seriously. Cause ya know…magic isn’t real! 😉 More to the point, since when does an exorcists journal trump the Bible? 😏 Nothing that I have ever posted, contradicts Sacred Scripture. Anyhow, you are supposedly an atheist now. So obviously you do not even believe the Bible anymore, do you? Whether I believe in the Bible or not isn’t the point. I “know” what it says, and apparently you don’t. But this is not surprising. Atheists know more about Christianity than Catholics
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