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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 19, 2023 17:12:09 GMT
Please pay attention. I asked earlier, after reading your logic re: Vietnam, WWII, Korea, World Wars etc, where, too, is the male bodily autonomy when being told to go to school, observe the speed limit when driving or being obliged to return library books on time? Clearly something is wrong here. If there is no male bodily autonomy here, what makes women so special? After all this is more of your watertight argument against abortion, is it not? Debating with some proportion and sense on religious message boards. As it happens, no I don't think it is asking too much that women be capable of doing those things as well, if that helps?
But it's asking too much they pay for their own birth control, bring their own condoms, or abstain from unprotected sex with men who are just going to be a drunken one night stand?
That is still not an argument against abortion - just for moral intolerance. And you didn't answer my questions. I wonder why?
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 19, 2023 18:31:36 GMT
But it's asking too much they pay for their own birth control, bring their own condoms, or abstain from unprotected sex with men who are just going to be a drunken one night stand?
That is still not an argument against abortion - just for moral intolerance, at the heart of most of your objections. And you didn't answer my questions. I wonder why?
And your questions were what, something about speed limits and library books? And that has what to do with anything?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 19, 2023 20:06:05 GMT
That is still not an argument against abortion - just for moral intolerance, at the heart of most of your objections. And you didn't answer my questions. I wonder why?
And your questions were what, something about speed limits and library books? And that has what to do with anything?
I shan't repeat them a second time. And it is to do with drawing out your strained logic on male bodily autonomy. Evasion noted.
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 19, 2023 23:01:42 GMT
Your response is irrelevant.
No it's not. Where was the male bodily autonomy during Vietnam, WWII, Korea, WWI? If they're not entitled to it, what makes women so special?
People always have freedom to make their own choices, but they are subject to the laws where they are.
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 19, 2023 23:02:55 GMT
I'm calling BS on this. Killing a pregnant woman may be morally repugnant, but it isn't a double homicide. Scott Peterson disagrees. He had a crappy lawyer.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 19, 2023 23:03:46 GMT
No it's not. Where was the male bodily autonomy during Vietnam, WWII, Korea, WWI? If they're not entitled to it, what makes women so special?
People always have freedom to make their own choices, but they are subject to the laws where they are.
There you have it then. Women HAD bodily autonomy before abortion was legal, they just had to pay for their choices, as did the doctors who were caught performing abortions when it was illegal. Abortion is not a credit card, if the man wanted it, the man paid for it, etc., that didn't suddenly make it okay, it was ALL illegal, not just when it was the woman's idea.
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 19, 2023 23:06:20 GMT
Do you believe that bodily autonomy is an absolute right? - Yes, I don't believe anyone should be able to violate any other person's body without consent. What about you? If you don't believe it, can I visit you and violate you, just for my own fun and amusement? I don't believe there are any laws governing drinking/doing drugs while pregnant. Child services may very well remove the infant from the mother after it's born.
If the draft comes back, are men going to be able to say 'my body, my choice, I ain't going'? Sure, they can try, they'll be in JAIL for it because their bodies are considered PROPERTY.
That's exactly what happened - some went to jail and some fled to Canada. Jimmy Carter issued a blanket pardon. I think you are confusing autonomy with being subject to the local laws. Sometimes there is a conflict, but there is a choice.
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Post by Admin on Jul 20, 2023 2:05:30 GMT
Scott Peterson disagrees. He had a crappy lawyer. He also had a double homicide charge for killing a pregnant woman.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 20, 2023 5:34:12 GMT
If the draft comes back, are men going to be able to say 'my body, my choice, I ain't going'? Sure, they can try, they'll be in JAIL for it because their bodies are considered PROPERTY.
That's exactly what happened - some went to jail and some fled to Canada. Jimmy Carter issued a blanket pardon. I think you are confusing autonomy with being subject to the local laws. Sometimes there is a conflict, but there is a choice.
For men the choice was get shipped off to a war they didn't believe in fighting, and get blown to bits, or NOT, and get arrested, thrown in jail and branded a coward and traitor by their very country, and often their own families. Women's choice is either don't have sex, or be pregnant for 9 months, give the baby up for adoption, or raise it. I wonder how many women would pick being killed/dismembered vs. being a mother?
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 20, 2023 17:41:50 GMT
This is actually really easy for anyone who has a moral framework based on rationalism. But your question is so LOADED that it requires a nuanced response, so here goes. In addition to everything marianne48 said, I think bodily autonomy is an absolute right, up until the point at which you begin to usurp the rights of another person. The freedom to swing your arm as hard as you want ends where someone else’s face begins. Consequently, someone choosing to act in such a way as to “purposefully” harm another person is immoral. Having said that, a fetus is not a person and someone who is pregnant reserves the right to NOT be pregnant against their will. Your question is an absurdity because you’re purposely creating an unrealistic scenario, not representative of what most pregnant people would ever deal with in reality, in order to make some larger statement about the morality of bodily autonomy in general. You’re also conflating morality with legality. If someone chooses to remain pregnant and ultimately have a child, then they also assume a moral responsibility to behave in such a way as to be a steward of the fetus they’ve agree to bring into the world. That means NOT behaving in the way implied by your example. As to what should be “legal”, that’s a different question. It’s already illegal to “do drugs” (in most cases) whether you’re pregnant or not, so adding the pregnancy aspect is moot. And while it’s legal to drink while pregnant, I personally believe that it should not be. In the same way that it’s illegal to drink before a certain age in most countries, and illegal to drink and drive, it should also be illegal to drink while pregnant. That’s not a bodily autonomy issue, it’s a health and safety concern. Then explain why killing a pregnant woman results in a DOUBLE homicide charge. You don't get that for killing a person carrying a potted plant.
Because laws are a reflection of the BELIEFS of lawmakers, not objective facts. You might as well be asking me why “spanking” your neighbors kid results in an ASSAULT charge when spanking your own does not. Sometimes laws are stupid, just like the people.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 20, 2023 17:47:11 GMT
Then explain why killing a pregnant woman results in a DOUBLE homicide charge. You don't get that for killing a person carrying a potted plant.
Because laws are a reflection of the BELIEFS of lawmakers, not objective facts. You might as well be asking me why “spanking” your neighbors kid results in an ASSAULT charge when spanking your own does not. Sometimes laws are stupid, just like the people.
So murder, rape and robbery being wrong, are not objective facts and just beliefs some stupid people have. Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 20, 2023 21:07:56 GMT
That's exactly what happened - some went to jail and some fled to Canada. Jimmy Carter issued a blanket pardon. I think you are confusing autonomy with being subject to the local laws. Sometimes there is a conflict, but there is a choice.
For men the choice was get shipped off to a war they didn't believe in fighting, and get blown to bits, or NOT, and get arrested, thrown in jail and branded a coward and traitor by their very country, and often their own families. Women's choice is either don't have sex, or be pregnant for 9 months, give the baby up for adoption, or raise it. I wonder how many women would pick being killed/dismembered vs. being a mother?
Even if we accept that this comparison is valid (and you still haven't responded to the questions which such logic invites) then this seems an argument for more rights for men and women not fewer. Meanwhile the notion that women don't really have it that bad tells us more about you than about them.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 20, 2023 21:37:05 GMT
For men the choice was get shipped off to a war they didn't believe in fighting, and get blown to bits, or NOT, and get arrested, thrown in jail and branded a coward and traitor by their very country, and often their own families. Women's choice is either don't have sex, or be pregnant for 9 months, give the baby up for adoption, or raise it. I wonder how many women would pick being killed/dismembered vs. being a mother?
Even if we accept that this comparison is valid (and you still haven't responded to the questions which such logic invites) then this seems an argument for more rights for men and women not fewer. Meanwhile the notion that women don't really have it that bad tells us more about you than about them.
A woman can carry a baby for 9 months, something that's been done literally BILLIONS of times, and give it up for adoption if she doesn't want it, and then go on her merry way. A man drafted into war is only getting sent home early if he's injured, psycho, or dead. So yeah, it does sound like between the two, women have it a little cushier. Obviously the women who have 5-10 kids for the child support and government assistance don't think it's a worse fate than joining the army, or they would.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 20, 2023 21:42:34 GMT
Even if we accept that this comparison is valid (and you still haven't responded to the questions which such logic invites) then this seems an argument for more rights for men and women not fewer. Meanwhile the notion that women don't really have it that bad tells us more about you than about them.
A woman can carry a baby for 9 months, something that's been done literally BILLIONS of times, and give it up for adoption if she doesn't want it, and then go on her merry way. A man drafted into war is only getting sent home early if he's injured, psycho, or dead. So yeah, it does sound like between the two, women have it a little cushier. Obviously the women who have 5-10 kids for the child support and government assistance don't think it's a worse fate than joining the army, or they would.
QED. Of course women hardly ever suffer the casual sexism of male commentators either.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2023 22:29:17 GMT
Because laws are a reflection of the BELIEFS of lawmakers, not objective facts. You might as well be asking me why “spanking” your neighbors kid results in an ASSAULT charge when spanking your own does not. Sometimes laws are stupid, just like the people.
So murder, rape and robbery being wrong, are not objective facts They are fine and celebrated in the Bible 🤷🏼♀️ Well in the Old Testament Jewish bit anyway.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 20, 2023 23:47:11 GMT
So murder, rape and robbery being wrong, are not objective facts They are fine and celebrated in the Bible 🤷🏼♀️ Well in the Old Testament Jewish bit anyway.
Oh you mean the 10 Commandments that specifically says 'thou shalt not steal' 'thou shalt not murder'?
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Post by Admin on Jul 21, 2023 0:10:26 GMT
I think you are confusing autonomy with being subject to the local laws. Interesting. Where do we get autonomy from if not the law?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 0:27:24 GMT
They are fine and celebrated in the Bible 🤷🏼♀️ Well in the Old Testament Jewish bit anyway.
Oh you mean the 10 Commandments that specifically says 'thou shalt not steal' 'thou shalt not murder'? No, I mean all the bits where Yahweh commands Jews to attack a town, and leave nothing alive, except take young women to rape.
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 21, 2023 0:44:27 GMT
That's exactly what happened - some went to jail and some fled to Canada. Jimmy Carter issued a blanket pardon. I think you are confusing autonomy with being subject to the local laws. Sometimes there is a conflict, but there is a choice.
For men the choice was get shipped off to a war they didn't believe in fighting, and get blown to bits, or NOT, and get arrested, thrown in jail and branded a coward and traitor by their very country, and often their own families. Women's choice is either don't have sex, or be pregnant for 9 months, give the baby up for adoption, or raise it. I wonder how many women would pick being killed/dismembered vs. being a mother?
You're definitely confused.
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 21, 2023 0:46:02 GMT
He also had a double homicide charge for killing a pregnant woman. OJ killed two people, one a white woman. He got off.
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