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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2023 21:42:55 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists...
You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 1, 2023 22:16:21 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists... You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be? You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation?
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Post by Admin on Aug 2, 2023 0:02:59 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists... You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be? You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? That question presumes that he doesn't. See Romans 1:18-23.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 2, 2023 10:16:50 GMT
You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? That question presumes that he doesn't. See Romans 1:18-23. No, I assuming that God is omnipotent at least in this respect, and therefore knows what it would take. God wills that all people are saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4) so why does He not act effectively to ensure His will is done? His efforts so far have been less than impressive. (According to a PEW estimation in 2020, Christians made up only about 2.6 billion of the worldwide population of about 8 billion people.) I can easily imagine a god which was more effective in getting the fact of its existence across. And as for scripture, well, they would say that, wouldn't they? As an atheist I think I know the answer. But am willing to hear any excuses.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 2, 2023 16:23:06 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists... You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be? You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? Can you think of an answer God might give that would satisfy you?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 2, 2023 17:00:31 GMT
I would ask him "If the human race are what matters most to you, why isn't the universe more human-centric? Why do we occupy such a small part of it? Why did we need to evolve from lesser species?"
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Aug 3, 2023 0:10:49 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists... You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be? You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? What if God knows nothing will convince you?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 3, 2023 19:16:27 GMT
You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? Can you think of an answer God might give that would satisfy you? Yes: "Funny you should say that" then letters a mile high in flames. saying I AM..... The standard apologists' answer to all this of course is either "God works in mysterious ways" or that "we should not tempt Him."
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 3, 2023 19:18:54 GMT
You know what it would take to convince everyone of your existence and also what would never work. Why not make yourself known to the entire world without any doubt and thus bring many more souls to salvation? What if God knows nothing will convince you? Then He would be wrong. An arm growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer would be one of various red line events for me, compelling my immediate acceptance of his power and existence for instance.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 3, 2023 20:18:46 GMT
Yes: "Funny you should say that" then letters a mile high in flames. saying I AM..... The standard apologists' answer to all this of course is either "God works in mysterious ways" or that "we should not tempt Him." I would have thought a better apologist answer would be to point to the story of Doubting Thomas. Thomas is given clear evidence of the resurrection and therefore believes but that belief is of zero value to Jesus because it's not based in faith. God is apparently not interested whether people merely believe he exists but that they have faith that he does. I think therefore a better question might be why does God care about faith? What is it that links faith with salvation?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 3, 2023 20:34:23 GMT
Yes: "Funny you should say that" then letters a mile high in flames. saying I AM..... The standard apologists' answer to all this of course is either "God works in mysterious ways" or that "we should not tempt Him." I would have thought the standard answer would be to point to the story of Doubting Thomas. Thomas is given clear evidence of the resurrection and therefore believes but that belief is of zero value to Jesus because it's not based in faith. God is apparently not interested whether people merely believe he exists but that they have faith that he does. I think therefore a better question might be why does God care about faith? What is it that links faith with salvation? The observation here is that where there is evidence no one asks for faith. Thomas actually saw concrete evidence scriptures say (though interestingly the Gmostic gospels deny this), in that he could see and feel Jesus's crucifixion wounds. "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed"
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 3, 2023 20:54:21 GMT
The observation here is that where there is evidence no one asks for faith. OK but suppose God cares merely that people believe he exists, whether based on evidence or faith. If he then produced sufficient evidence, he could then achieve maximum salvation. But if he wanted that, why is belief the necessary criterion for salvation anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to declare everyone saved intead of setting this requirement then fulfilling it himself? I feel the only way sense could be made of this is if there is something about the emotion of taking a leap of faith that connects one with God. That this connection with God is salvation itself rather than salvation being a separate reward for believing. Or that there is no God of course. But this question assumes there is.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2023 21:01:59 GMT
The observation here is that where there is evidence no one asks for faith. OK but suppose God cares merely that people believe he exists, whether based on evidence or faith. If he then produced sufficient evidence, he could then achieve maximum salvation. But if he wanted that, why is belief the necessary criterion for salvation itself anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to declare everyone saved intead of setting this requirement then fulfilling it himself? I feel the only way sense could be made of this is if there is something about the emotion of taking a leap of faith that connects one with God. That this connection with God is salvation itself rather than salvation being a separate reward for believing. Or that there is no God of course. But this question assumes there is. If I told you that you will never die, how long do you live before you believe it?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 3, 2023 21:05:04 GMT
If I told you that you will never die, how long do you live before you believe it? Sorry, I don't understand the question.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 3, 2023 21:20:51 GMT
The observation here is that where there is evidence no one asks for faith. OK but suppose God cares merely that people believe he exists, whether based on evidence or faith. If he then produced sufficient evidence, he could then achieve maximum salvation. But if he wanted that, why is belief the necessary criterion for salvation anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to declare everyone saved intead of setting this requirement then fulfilling it himself? I feel the only way sense could be made of this is if there is something about the emotion of taking a leap of faith that connects one with God. That this connection with God is salvation itself rather than salvation being a separate reward for believing. Or that there is no God of course. But this question assumes there is. If that is the case I would suggest there is plenty of faith to be had, but evidence (of the overwhelming unequivocal type, enough to move most of sceotical) is vanishingly short on the ground so looks like the Almighty much prefers faith. As an atheist the reliance and stress on faith over such clear and convincing evidence points to inevitable conclusions about the credulity of believers as well as whether the deity exists or not.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Aug 3, 2023 22:54:46 GMT
What if God knows nothing will convince you? Then He would be wrong. An arm growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer would be one of various red line events for me, compelling my immediate acceptance of his power and existence for instance. Are you sure about that? No offense but going by your interactions here you seem to be dead against the idea of God, especially the God of the Bible.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 4, 2023 9:16:10 GMT
Suspend your belief/disbelief for a minute. Just assume God exists... You can ask Him/Her just one question... What would it be? If skepticism is rational, and you are mysterious - why am I only allowed to ask you ONE question?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 4, 2023 21:16:51 GMT
Then He would be wrong. An arm growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer would be one of various red line events for me, compelling my immediate acceptance of his power and existence for instance. Are you sure about that? No offense but going by your interactions here you seem to be dead against the idea of God, especially the God of the Bible. Yes I am sure. I don't pretend to know that God doesn't exist, although I have my strong suspicions. Whether or not I would want to worship the newly-confirmed Almighty of course is a separate matter...
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 7, 2023 19:32:28 GMT
OK but suppose God cares merely that people believe he exists, whether based on evidence or faith. If he then produced sufficient evidence, he could then achieve maximum salvation. But if he wanted that, why is belief the necessary criterion for salvation itself anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to declare everyone saved intead of setting this requirement then fulfilling it himself? I feel the only way sense could be made of this is if there is something about the emotion of taking a leap of faith that connects one with God. That this connection with God is salvation itself rather than salvation being a separate reward for believing. Or that there is no God of course. But this question assumes there is. If I told you that you will never die, how long do you live before you believe it? Jf you told someone that I doubt whether they would ever believe it.
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Post by Admin on Aug 8, 2023 2:57:53 GMT
If I told you that you will never die, how long do you live before you believe it? Jf you told someone that I doubt whether they would ever believe it. Exactly the point. I was just spitballing the question of why God presumably puts so much importance on faith. You could live a billion years and still not believe it. Likewise, I could prove to you an infinite amount of times that I will catch you when you fall, but you would still struggle with letting go. Perhaps faith is more of a necessity. The Lost One
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