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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 24, 2024 20:47:09 GMT
My problem with circumcision is that it is done primarily for ritual purposes on those who are too young to give consent. If the religious wish to mutilate themselves that is entirely up to them but let's at least keep it to the adults.
But the same is never said for people who decide children are old enough to know they want hysterectomies, penile mutilation surgeries to make phony vaginas, etc. Oh 3-4 years old is damn well old enough to KNOW they're the wrong sex, it's not a phase, children ONLY have phases for everything else, they KNOW it and they will NEVER change their minds. Don't let their brain reach adult development, don't let them figure out what their body is naturally going to develop into the many years after puberty, no, stop it before it starts. Take their choice away from them before they're even old enough to MAKE that decision.
Hyperbole noted.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 24, 2024 21:10:33 GMT
But the same is never said for people who decide children are old enough to know they want hysterectomies, penile mutilation surgeries to make phony vaginas, etc. Oh 3-4 years old is damn well old enough to KNOW they're the wrong sex, it's not a phase, children ONLY have phases for everything else, they KNOW it and they will NEVER change their minds. Don't let their brain reach adult development, don't let them figure out what their body is naturally going to develop into the many years after puberty, no, stop it before it starts. Take their choice away from them before they're even old enough to MAKE that decision.
Hyperbole noted.
Circumcised men are able to have sex, boys who have their penises surgically removed cannot. If they change their mind, it cannot be restored, no matter what. That is not hyperbole.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 24, 2024 21:37:26 GMT
But the same is never said for people who decide children are old enough to know they want hysterectomies, penile mutilation surgeries to make phony vaginas, etc. Oh 3-4 years old is damn well old enough to KNOW they're the wrong sex No one is performing penile surgeries on 4 year olds.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 24, 2024 21:58:10 GMT
But the same is never said for people who decide children are old enough to know they want hysterectomies, penile mutilation surgeries to make phony vaginas, etc. Oh 3-4 years old is damn well old enough to KNOW they're the wrong sex No one is performing penile surgeries on 4 year olds. I imagine that there are rare occasions when corrective surgery is necessary etc but one doubts that is what novastar6 is bothered about. But as usual he gives no source or proof for anything. and, it reasonable to suggest only done for strict medical reasons not on the whim of children. It is much the same with hysterectomies where as usual he offers lurid exaggeration rather than substantiation. "One of the most complicated ethical issues that arises in children’s hospitals today is the issue of whether it is ever permissible to perform a procedure for a minor that will result in permanent sterilization. In most cases, the answer is no. .. what if a minor has congenital urogenital anomalies or other medical conditions for which the best treatment is a hysterectomy?" Whatever the ethical answer is to such a fraught question it is the case that hysterectomies are hardly the casual affair that Nov makes out, let along something readily done at the behest of young children. publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/139/6/e20163992/38799/Ethical-Controversy-About-Hysterectomy-for-a-Minor?redirectedFrom=fulltext
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 24, 2024 23:58:50 GMT
But the same is never said for people who decide children are old enough to know they want hysterectomies, penile mutilation surgeries to make phony vaginas, etc. Oh 3-4 years old is damn well old enough to KNOW they're the wrong sex No one is performing penile surgeries on 4 year olds.
Of course not, but as soon as a child decides they are or want to be the other gender, especially once the school hears or decides the kid is transgender, the parents must blindly go along with it, dead naming, puberty blockers, THEN surgeries, and if they DON'T, if they think the child is going through a phase, they should wait and see if they grow out of it, change their minds, etc., well the child must be removed from that house because it is not gender affirming and therefore the parents are abusing that child.
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Post by llanwydd on Feb 25, 2024 8:18:10 GMT
Some very good points made in this thread. I hope that my original point was not lost, that religious freedom should not be an excuse for child abuse.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 8:49:11 GMT
Some very good points made in this thread. I hope that my original point was not lost, that religious freedom should not be an excuse for child abuse.
And yet there's something ironic in saying circumcision is abuse but not this.
To recap, we're told NO surgeries are done before the age of 18, they're full consenting and informed adults when that happens, cut off a 15 year old girls' perfectly healthy breasts no questions asked.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 25, 2024 12:54:09 GMT
Some very good points made in this thread. I hope that my original point was not lost, that religious freedom should not be an excuse for child abuse. Ironically, in the other recent thread here ""Beware of occultist doctors and nurses" novastar would appear to agree with this sentiment, where the evil machinations of (presumably) devil-worshipping medics and their freedom to practice their occult religion must not preclude the safety of patients.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 25, 2024 12:56:41 GMT
Some very good points made in this thread. I hope that my original point was not lost, that religious freedom should not be an excuse for child abuse.
And yet there's something ironic in saying circumcision is abuse but not this.
To recap, we're told NO surgeries are done before the age of 18, they're full consenting and informed adults when that happens, cut off a 15 year old girls' perfectly healthy breasts no questions asked.
YouTube and selective anecdotal evidence therein is still not an authoritative or objective source, although one can see how it suits your worldview. YouTube is like the Bible in that, ultimately, one can select content in support of most views.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 25, 2024 17:27:44 GMT
Of course not, but as soon as a child decides they are or want to be the other gender, especially once the school hears or decides the kid is transgender, the parents must blindly go along with it, dead naming, puberty blockers, THEN surgeries, and if they DON'T, if they think the child is going through a phase, they should wait and see if they grow out of it, change their minds, etc., well the child must be removed from that house because it is not gender affirming and therefore the parents are abusing that child. There's 14 years between a 4 year old first mentioning gender identity issues and the youngest they can get genital surgery in most countries. 14 years would be a long phase. Anyway, the parents here weren't waiting to see if it was a phase. They had already decided it was a phase.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 18:35:07 GMT
Of course not, but as soon as a child decides they are or want to be the other gender, especially once the school hears or decides the kid is transgender, the parents must blindly go along with it, dead naming, puberty blockers, THEN surgeries, and if they DON'T, if they think the child is going through a phase, they should wait and see if they grow out of it, change their minds, etc., well the child must be removed from that house because it is not gender affirming and therefore the parents are abusing that child. There's 14 years between a 4 year old first mentioning gender identity issues and the youngest they can get genital surgery in most countries. 14 years would be a long phase. Anyway, the parents here weren't waiting to see if it was a phase. They had already decided it was a phase.
Most parents would, even a lot of non-religious ones, even a lot of scientific ones.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 25, 2024 18:59:59 GMT
Most parents would, even a lot of non-religious ones, even a lot of scientific ones. Perhaps they would. But in this specific case, the social workers felt their attitude was helping put their child's life in danger and a judge agreed.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 19:03:55 GMT
Most parents would, even a lot of non-religious ones, even a lot of scientific ones. Perhaps they would. But in this specific case, the social workers felt their attitude was helping put their child's life in danger and a judge agreed.
So again, if the same child had decided he needed to have his leg amputated or he wouldn't eat, the judge and CPS would agree with that?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Feb 25, 2024 21:07:48 GMT
I hadn't heard of this case, so looked it up and unsurprisingly it's more complex than just parents not being allowed to have strict Catholic views on gender. It seems the issue was the child had developed a long-term (over 2 years) severe eating disorder and social workers had identified the parents' stance on their gender identity as a major contributing factor as the child was self-isolating without food as a response. So they recommended the child be placed in a gender-affirming household rather than risk the eating disorder getting any worse. So it was basically a desperate move to save a child's life. Good answer. You are one of the few people on here that gives intelligent responses to the mumbo jumbo of other posters.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 25, 2024 23:14:23 GMT
So again, if the same child had decided he needed to have his leg amputated or he wouldn't eat, the judge and CPS would agree with that? I don't think the two are the same but let's agree for the sake of argument that they are. The child couldn't have got gender reassignment surgery till they were 18 anyway so forbidding surgery wasn't the issue. The issue was the parents were refusing to accept the child's gender identity. If the child had BID and the parents were handling it so badly that the child was starving themselves to death then social services probably would be warranted in stepping in too.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 23:20:23 GMT
So again, if the same child had decided he needed to have his leg amputated or he wouldn't eat, the judge and CPS would agree with that? I don't think the two are the same but let's agree for the sake of argument that they are. The child couldn't have got gender reassignment surgery till they were 18 anyway so forbidding surgery wasn't the issue. The issue was the parents were refusing to accept the child's gender identity. If the child had BID and the parents were handling it so badly that the child was starving themselves to death then social services probably would be warranted in stepping in too.
And the child would be relocated to a home where the parents WOULD let him get his leg cut off? Otherwise the foster parents are just in the same boat as the birth parents.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 25, 2024 23:34:07 GMT
And the child would be relocated to a home where the parents WOULD let him get his leg cut off? Otherwise the foster parents are just in the same boat as the birth parents. No. Because surgery wasn't the issue as I said. The home the child got moved to wouldn't have been able to let them get gender reassignment surgery even if they wanted to. What they could do was treat the child's professed gender identity with respect - something the parents refused to do.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 23:37:01 GMT
And the child would be relocated to a home where the parents WOULD let him get his leg cut off? Otherwise the foster parents are just in the same boat as the birth parents. [/quote]No. Because surgery wasn't the issue as I said. The home the child got moved to wouldn't have been able to let them get gender reassignment surgery even if they wanted to. What they could do was treat the child's professed gender identity with respect - something the parents refused to do.[/quote][/div]
So how would any parent treat a child demanding their leg be cut off, with respect?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 26, 2024 7:42:57 GMT
So how would any parent treat a child demanding their leg be cut off, with respect? I would follow doctor's advice on that score. I imagine you shouldn't minimise the issue though. As I said though, I don't think GD and BID are more than superficially similar so I don't think they should be treated the exact same. But I imagine with both there is a wrong way and a right way for parents to behave.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 26, 2024 15:51:48 GMT
So how would any parent treat a child demanding their leg be cut off, with respect? I would follow doctor's advice on that score. I imagine you shouldn't minimise the issue though. As I said though, I don't think GD and BID are more than superficially similar so I don't think they should be treated the exact same. But I imagine with both there is a wrong way and a right way for parents to behave.
The problem is the 'right' way a lot of 'experts' have advised parents on, have resulted in a lot of damage psychologically and physically to their children. Kids are automatically put on hormones to stop puberty, doctors, therapists, etc. don't try to figure out WHY they think they'd be better off as the other gender, what the root cause is, if they were abused, etc., they're just told if they hate their body, that's proof they were born into the wrong one and they need to transition. And nobody who justifies all this is actually listening to the children, not once they've actually gone through the whole process, they listen when the kids initially say 'I want to be a girl/boy', they listen to the 'experts' who just 'know' this is what they need, nobody listens to the ones who have been through this and then realized it was a mistake and even after de-transitioning, will still never be the people they originally were or were supposed to be.
Supposedly this case is built on the kid refused to eat for 2 years because his parents wouldn't call him a her. If a kid acted the same way for 2 years because his parents wouldn't entertain the notion he's a dog and wouldn't call him Fido and wouldn't give him a flea collar and a leash and let him pee on the curb, would the social workers and the courts say the answer is put him in a home that will affirm he's a dog? Or would somebody actually say he needs psychological help to figure out why he's acting this way?
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