|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 26, 2024 18:58:14 GMT
It's a classic example of the 'subversion of expectations' taken too far by the writers, whether it's the showrunners or GRRM himself. GOT fell apart down the stretch because nobody seemed to have a plan, but the one thing they wanted to make sure of was that you wouldn't see it coming. The entire concept of narrative structure is lost if your ultimate end is confounding your audience at all costs. A red herring here and there is one thing, but following a saga like GOT or the Star Wars sequel trilogy just to be constantly told nothing you saw previously mattered, defeats the purpose of following the story in the first place. It's all just non-sequitur bullshit at that point.
The GOT finale is filled with stale resolutions to pretty much every character's story. The Dany turn was foreshadowed all along, that didn't surprise me. Jon Snow choosing to live beyond the Wall also seems fitting, I never thought it would be as straightforward as him ascending the Iron Throne. But Jaime returning to Cersei for no reason at all and both of them dying unceremoniously in a building collapse, oof. Bran the Boring becoming King? I for one never thought the war with the Others would be the final resolution of the Song of Ice and Fire, but all that buildup for a wet fart of a battle which had zero consequence for anyone, is bad writing no matter how you look at it. The rest of the High Lords accepting the North as its own kingdom and Bran on the Iron Throne is absurd, and reeks of a giant shoulder shrug because the creatives behind it all couldn't resolve it in their minds and just wanted to be done with it, and again this goes for D&D and GRRM. The proof is in the severe drop in quality in the later seasons, and the fact that GRRM STILL hasn't finished the books, while moving on to side projects like Fire & Blood.
The tropes you listed are obvious storytelling techniques that get people invested in the story and the characters. You can put a twist on any of them, but you can't throw them all out the window, especially number 4. You're insulting your audience at that point. You said it best:
Nobody wants to get to the end of a story and have that be the message. Whether it's GRRM or D&D or Rian Johnson or Shyamalan, writing a completely nonsensical story doesn't make you more clever than your readers, it just makes you an asshole.
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jun 27, 2024 1:57:06 GMT
It's a classic example of the 'subversion of expectations' taken too far by the writers, whether it's the showrunners or GRRM himself. GOT fell apart down the stretch because nobody seemed to have a plan, but the one thing they wanted to make sure of was that you wouldn't see it coming. The entire concept of narrative structure is lost if your ultimate end is confounding your audience at all costs. A red herring here and there is one thing, but following a saga like GOT or the Star Wars sequel trilogy just to be constantly told nothing you saw previously mattered, defeats the purpose of following the story in the first place. It's all just non-sequitur bullshit at that point. The GOT finale is filled with stale resolutions to pretty much every character's story. The Dany turn was foreshadowed all along, that didn't surprise me. Jon Snow choosing to live beyond the Wall also seems fitting, I never thought it would be as straightforward as him ascending the Iron Throne. But Jaime returning to Cersei for no reason at all and both of them dying unceremoniously in a building collapse, oof. Bran the Boring becoming King? I for one never thought the war with the Others would be the final resolution of the Song of Ice and Fire, but all that buildup for a wet fart of a battle which had zero consequence for anyone, is bad writing no matter how you look at it. The rest of the High Lords accepting the North as its own kingdom and Bran on the Iron Throne is absurd, and reeks of a giant shoulder shrug because the creatives behind it all couldn't resolve it in their minds and just wanted to be done with it, and again this goes for D&D and GRRM. The proof is in the severe drop in quality in the later seasons, and the fact that GRRM STILL hasn't finished the books, while moving on to side projects like Fire & Blood. The tropes you listed are obvious storytelling techniques that get people invested in the story and the characters. You can put a twist on any of them, but you can't throw them all out the window, especially number 4. You're insulting your audience at that point. You said it best: Nobody wants to get to the end of a story and have that be the message. Whether it's GRRM or D&D or Rian Johnson or Shyamalan, writing a completely nonsensical story doesn't make you more clever than your readers, it just makes you an asshole. I think GoT is a pretty good example of why having a plan, rather than letting a story evolve organically, isn't always such a good thing. Bran becoming king WAS the plan all along. This has been confirmed. Other controversial decisions probably were as well (I remember predicting Jaime would go back to Cersei all the way back in season 4). But the writers couldn't bridge the gap to make it fit, and despite the story moving away from Bran as a character worth caring about, they were still burdened with putting him on the throne because plan. You know what wasn't planned that worked out great? The Star Wars original trilogy. Vader being Luke's father, Leia ending up with Han, the Emperor being this evil man-witch thing, all stuff made up as the series went along. But guys like Lucas and Kevin Feige have sold this narrative of a god-like one man visionary who has decades of material mapped out in their back pocket. Lord of the Rings wasn't a glint in Tolkien's eye when he wrote The Hobbit.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 27, 2024 6:19:40 GMT
Other controversial decisions probably were as well (I remember predicting Jaime would go back to Cersei all the way back in season 4). But the writers couldn't bridge the gap to make it fit… Jaime kept repeating his unwavering goal of being with Cersei all along. He said it to Cat' in S2, fell on his knees when Bolton was playing with the news in S3 and went straight back to her in the finale of that season. He said it again to Bronn in S5 and in S6E01 he was the one telling her "we are the only thing that matters". The show was dangling the possibility of a change in him that fools wanted to see so they ran for it like idiots and called for "bad writing" when they were exposed. I did not list it with the others because Jaime's story is a secondary one but here again, the writing was subverting the common trope of the villain's redemption and replacing it with the finding and acceptance of one's identity. Jaime always wanted to be both the knight in shining armour and the golden lion in Cersei's bed. He was not going to give up one for the other and he didn't. The writing flaw was putting him in Brienne's arms. That should have never happened but that's what morons wanted to see, so they gave it to them. And no, he never cared about the people. He only allowed Brienne (and a stupidly naive audience) to think that for a moment to get the respect he craved. A pretense he no longer needed in front of his brother. It all made perfect sense except to dumb feelers who fall into crude traps.
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 27, 2024 12:17:19 GMT
Other controversial decisions probably were as well (I remember predicting Jaime would go back to Cersei all the way back in season 4). But the writers couldn't bridge the gap to make it fit… Jaime kept repeating his unwavering goal of being with Cersei all along. He said it to Cat' in S2, fell on his knees when Bolton was playing with the news in S3 and went straight back to her in the finale of that season. He said it again to Bronn in S5 and in S6E01 he was the one telling her "we are the only thing that matters". The show was dangling the possibility of a change in him that fools wanted to see so they ran for it like idiots and called for "bad writing" when they were exposed. I did not list it with the others because Jaime's story is a secondary one but here again, the writing was subverting the common trope of the villain's redemption and replacing it with the finding and acceptance of one's identity. Jaime always wanted to be both the knight in shining armour and the golden lion in Cersei's bed. He was not going to give up one for the other and he didn't. The writing flaw was putting him in Brienne's arms. That should have never happened but that's what morons wanted to see, so they gave it to them. And no, he never cared about the people. He only allowed Brienne (and a stupidly naive audience) to think that for a moment to get the respect he craved. A pretense he no longer needed in front of his brother. It all made perfect sense except to dumb feelers who fall into crude traps. Giving all the characters stale endings out of nowhere isn't good writing. 'Subverting expectations' has become code for 'I just didn't want anyone on the internet to guess right,' which is never how you should approach writing a story. Regardless, it's less about the ending than it is about how we got there. I didn't need Jaime to end up with Brienne of all people, I just needed a logical reason for him to go back to Cersei. They did a great job building up to why he left her in the first place, and put no effort whatsoever into explaining why he went back. "Here's something he said three seasons prior," doesn't excuse a reversal of multiple seasons worth of character development. In the books, even when bad things happen, and worse things on top of that, a part of you can see it coming. It's there in the text if you look for it. Some of the stuff in the final season was rushed and felt out of the blue, even if GRRM's notes suggested 'this is how it ends.' The ending only works if how you got there makes any narrative sense. The show was rushed, thus the story and all of its character beats down the stretch feels hollow.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 27, 2024 12:48:41 GMT
I didn't need Jaime to end up with Brienne of all people, I just needed a logical reason for him to go back to Cersei. They did a great job building up to why he left her in the first place, and put no effort whatsoever into explaining why he went back. Jaime never left Cersei. He decided to go do what he had promised to do and felt was needed. He didn't need a reason to go back. You just decided you had seen what you wanted to see when it wasn't there and refused to be proven wrong,
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 27, 2024 13:28:38 GMT
I didn't need Jaime to end up with Brienne of all people, I just needed a logical reason for him to go back to Cersei. They did a great job building up to why he left her in the first place, and put no effort whatsoever into explaining why he went back. Jaime never left Cersei. He decided to go do what he had promised to do and felt was needed. He didn't need a reason to go back. You just decided you had seen what you wanted to see when it wasn't there and refused to be proven wrong, Sure thing, boss. He didn't need a reason to go back. Brilliant. I hope GRRM has a better explanation than you do, I've invested too much time in the books to be told "this all happened because reasons." Not sure how I could be 'proven wrong' when I never suggested I knew how everything would end. I remember posters like you on the old IMDb board for the show. Mentally stuck at 14 years old, calling people names. Inexplicably angry that someone would see things differently. Constantly playing the '2deep4u' card, as if you're somehow more intellectual and you understood the material in ways others can't. Those conversations were tedious then and they're even worse now, because I thought we'd moved beyond that.
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jun 28, 2024 21:42:23 GMT
Jaime kept repeating his unwavering goal of being with Cersei all along. He said it to Cat' in S2, fell on his knees when Bolton was playing with the news in S3 and went straight back to her in the finale of that season. He said it again to Bronn in S5 and in S6E01 he was the one telling her "we are the only thing that matters". The show was dangling the possibility of a change in him that fools wanted to see so they ran for it like idiots and called for "bad writing" when they were exposed. I did not list it with the others because Jaime's story is a secondary one but here again, the writing was subverting the common trope of the villain's redemption and replacing it with the finding and acceptance of one's identity. Jaime always wanted to be both the knight in shining armour and the golden lion in Cersei's bed. He was not going to give up one for the other and he didn't. The writing flaw was putting him in Brienne's arms. That should have never happened but that's what morons wanted to see, so they gave it to them. And no, he never cared about the people. He only allowed Brienne (and a stupidly naive audience) to think that for a moment to get the respect he craved. A pretense he no longer needed in front of his brother. It all made perfect sense except to dumb feelers who fall into crude traps. Giving all the characters stale endings out of nowhere isn't good writing. 'Subverting expectations' has become code for 'I just didn't want anyone on the internet to guess right,' which is never how you should approach writing a story. Regardless, it's less about the ending than it is about how we got there. I didn't need Jaime to end up with Brienne of all people, I just needed a logical reason for him to go back to Cersei. They did a great job building up to why he left her in the first place, and put no effort whatsoever into explaining why he went back. "Here's something he said three seasons prior," doesn't excuse a reversal of multiple seasons worth of character development. In the books, even when bad things happen, and worse things on top of that, a part of you can see it coming. It's there in the text if you look for it. Some of the stuff in the final season was rushed and felt out of the blue, even if GRRM's notes suggested 'this is how it ends.' The ending only works if how you got there makes any narrative sense. The show was rushed, thus the story and all of its character beats down the stretch feels hollow. To me, it felt like an abusive relationship, with Jaime in the stereotypically feminine role of someone who keeps going back to the bad man. Of all the controversies, this one was one of the less bothersome for me, except for him saying he never cared about innocents. For me, the most sensible time for him to cut ties with her completely was after she blew up the sept and drove Tommen to suicide. If that didn't irreversibly kill his love for her, the writing was kind of on the wall.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 29, 2024 11:05:11 GMT
Jaime never left Cersei. He decided to go do what he had promised to do and felt was needed. He didn't need a reason to go back. You just decided you had seen what you wanted to see when it wasn't there and refused to be proven wrong, Sure thing, boss. He didn't need a reason to go back. Brilliant. I hope GRRM has a better explanation than you do, I've invested too much time in the books to be told "this all happened because reasons." Not sure how I could be 'proven wrong' when I never suggested I knew how everything would end. I remember posters like you on the old IMDb board for the show. Mentally stuck at 14 years old, calling people names. Inexplicably angry that someone would see things differently. Constantly playing the '2deep4u' card, as if you're somehow more intellectual and you understood the material in ways others can't. Those conversations were tedious then and they're even worse now, because I thought we'd moved beyond that. Jaime didn't need newer reasons than those he had all along. You're one of those brainless fools who won't learn and don't like being proven wrong. Also one of those mobbing shits who uses "we" as some sort of fake authority. Get flushed.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 29, 2024 11:56:20 GMT
To me, it felt like an abusive relationship, with Jaime in the stereotypically feminine role of someone who keeps going back to the bad man. Of all the controversies, this one was one of the less bothersome for me, except for him saying he never cared about innocents. For me, the most sensible time for him to cut ties with her completely was after she blew up the sept and drove Tommen to suicide. If that didn't irreversibly kill his love for her, the writing was kind of on the wall. I don't think the relationship was abusive to Jaime, at least not in the show of the early seasons, when the writing made sense. Cersei's behaviour in S7 can be seen that way ("Don't betray me again"). The show inverted the apparent dynamic, making Jaime the driver in S1: he is the one who holds her saying he'll kill everyone in this world until they are the only ones left. Cersei is not completely on board with this. I speak of apparent dynamic because we get Jaime's point of view in the books, which is always a skewed thing. We read what he thinks Cersei does with him. We see that dynamic again in S4: Jaime just returned to find Cersei promised to marry Loras, expected to leave her status and her sons and what does he do? Ask when they're going to fuck again (Criston Cole would have asked if she wanted him to kill the man). Then we know what happens next in the Sept. So who is abusing whom? Jaime's motivation is likely another, possibly that of not wanting anyone else but the closest possible image of himself, although that is not expressed in the show. He doesn't look at other women, at least not from the point of potential interest. Jaime also shuns responsibilities of all sorts. "I don't want Casterly Rock, I don't wan't a wife, I don't want children… super would be nice" he tells Tywin. He doesn't want to be Hand ("their days are too long") any more than he wants to be a lord. Being a Kingsguard shagging his sister is safely uncompromising in that it doesn't come with any unforeseen duties. People object to Jaime "not caring about the people" of King's Landing because they want to believe he sacrificed his honour to save them once, but he saved himself: Jaime was going to burn if he didn't do something drastic. So yes, he draws on the "honorable" side effect of saving the city to get brownie points but one would have to be very naive to think it was the primary motivation. As to blowing up the Sept, the writing was engraved in bold on the gates of the Red Keep a whole season before that in S6E01:If that is not fully in line with killing a crowd of fanatics and their supporters, I don't know what is. But I can see how the redemption suckers who wanted to believe the man had saved a city at his own cost would "forget" he said that. The only thing Jaime does which I find truly out of character is jumping into bed with Brienne and having to hear a conversation about Cersei to decide to leave.
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 29, 2024 18:58:49 GMT
Sure thing, boss. He didn't need a reason to go back. Brilliant. I hope GRRM has a better explanation than you do, I've invested too much time in the books to be told "this all happened because reasons." Not sure how I could be 'proven wrong' when I never suggested I knew how everything would end. I remember posters like you on the old IMDb board for the show. Mentally stuck at 14 years old, calling people names. Inexplicably angry that someone would see things differently. Constantly playing the '2deep4u' card, as if you're somehow more intellectual and you understood the material in ways others can't. Those conversations were tedious then and they're even worse now, because I thought we'd moved beyond that. Jaime didn't need newer reasons than those he had all along. You're one of those brainless fools who won't learn and don't like being proven wrong. Also one of those mobbing shits who uses "we" as some sort of fake authority. Get flushed. We as an internet culture. At least, those capable of intelligent conversation. I still don't know what I was 'proven wrong' about. All I ask is for a little bit of effort from the showrunners. I don't know why you're so angry, and frankly I don't care. You seem to be one of those people who takes any criticism or questioning of something he likes as a personal affront. It's pretty juvenile, and I hope you grow out of it before too long, for your sake. I can't imagine it's very fun going through life that way. Good luck.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 30, 2024 5:38:02 GMT
Jaime didn't need newer reasons than those he had all along. You're one of those brainless fools who won't learn and don't like being proven wrong. Also one of those mobbing shits who uses "we" as some sort of fake authority. Get flushed. We as an internet culture. At least, those capable of intelligent conversation. I still don't know what I was 'proven wrong' about. All I ask is for a little bit of effort from the showrunners. I don't know why you're so angry, and frankly I don't care. You seem to be one of those people who takes any criticism or questioning of something he likes as a personal affront. It's pretty juvenile, and I hope you grow out of it before too long, for your sake. I can't imagine it's very fun going through life that way. Good luck. Here's "we" again. Collectivist scum. You don't know how you were proven wrong: that's an idiot right there. And "frankly you don't care", except you do enough to write back and insult further. You started throwing mud, new you get it back into your stinking face and act all "better knowing" while listing more things you can't do. I don't care how you go through your life or how you feel about anything. Go play the caring fuck with the other fools out there.
|
|
jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 242
Likes: 122
![](http://storage.proboards.com/6692551/images/CTEdkGf0wmfSETIzYiXk.gif)
|
Post by jimmyboy on Aug 1, 2024 1:39:03 GMT
I thought the first four seasons made it clear that this show was no "by the numbers" action / fantasy show.
You made good points why it wasn't that sort of show and perhaps why some were irritated with the final season
|
|