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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 14, 2017 8:49:09 GMT
In the majority of the Classical Hollywood Western films the ethics and storylines were mostly 'black and white' clear and defined.
Subgenres of the Western film contain many wonderful examples which took the genre in divergent directions, portraying a perspective and viewpoint never seen before.
Any thoughts to share, favourites, Western subgenres to add ? my favourites in bold...
The Ostern (Eastern) or Red Western was the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries' take on the Western. The term refers to two related genres. Red Westerns, are set in America's 'Wild West' while the Easterns are set usually on the steppes or Asian parts of the USSR, especially during the Russian Revolution or the following Civil War. Both provide a counterpoint to familiar mythologies and conventions of the original western tale.
The films from this subgenre sought to demythologise the Western in different ways...
The East German film, Die Söhne der großen Bärin The Sons of the Great Bear (1966) turned the traditional American "Cowboy and Indian" conventions upside-down by casting the Native Americans as the heroes and the American Army as the villains, while presenting the settlers as antagonists and showing how American natives were exploited, and taken advantage of.
The Romanian film, Pruncul, petrolul şi ardelenii , The Oil, the Baby and the Transylvanians (1981) dramatises the struggles of Romanian and Hungarian immigrant settlers in a new land. This excellent film plays on traditional aspects where the bad guy is the respected good guy in town and lawlessness is rife.
Czechoslovakian film, Limonádový Joe aneb Koňská opera, Lemonade Joe (1964) is a film with multiple layers of thematic parody, most prominently, a parody of clichés found in American Westerns, and in addition this brilliant highly entertaining film includes a running satire of American capitalism and cultural imperialism.
The Soviet Union film, Beloye solntse pustyni , White Sun of the Desert (1970) is a classic 'Eastern'. A mix of adventurous Russian folktale and western, with a blend of heroic action, comedy, music and drama, as well as memorable oft quoted lines from a great script, it was highly successful.
Acid Western is a subgenre of the Western film that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s that combines the metaphorical ambitions of critically acclaimed Westerns, eg. Shane with the excesses of the Spaghetti Westerns and the outlook of the times, the 1960s counter-culture. Acid Westerns subvert many of the conventions of earlier Westerns to conjure up a crazed version of auto-destructive white America. Ride In The Whirlwind (1966) comes to mind, a misguided vigilante group takes the law into it's own hands...
Revisionist Western These films placed the context of the Native Americans and the Cowboys alike but in a darker setting. They depicted a morally questionable world where the heroes and villains often resembled each other more closely than had ever previously been shown. The concept of right and wrong becomes blurred in a world where actions could no longer be said to be good or bad. Many were made by emerging Hollywood filmmakers who saw the Western as an opportunity to expand their criticism of American society and values, into a new genre, Ride the High Country (1962) is a good example
The Spaghetti Western became the nickname, originally a disparaging title, for this broad subgenre, so named because of the films common Italian background for directing, producing and financing. They mostly had in common, Italian language, low budgets, and a recognizable highly stylized conception. Fluid, violent, with minimalist cinematography they abandoned many of the conventions of earlier classic Westerns .Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) is the best known and most popular example of an epic Spaghetti Western .
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Post by OldAussie on Jun 14, 2017 10:26:59 GMT
The Noir western where the lines are blurred between good and bad. "The Naked Spur" might be an example. "Johnny Guitar" is also a radically different type of western though I'm not sure how to categorize it. And how about "High Plains Drifter"? Horror?
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Post by politicidal on Jun 14, 2017 13:10:59 GMT
Weird Westerns. A work of speculative fiction whether it be fantasy, science fiction, or horror, etc. that takes place in a Western setting. Examples include The Beast of Hollow Mountain, The Valley of Gwangi, Briscoe County Jr., and Wild Wild West. I guess a modern example is Preacher, both the comic and the tv series.
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Post by mikef6 on Jun 14, 2017 13:32:51 GMT
A couple of western “caper” films, both with Alan Ladd.
The Badlanders / Delmer Davis (1958). This is often described as a loose remake of “The Asphalt Jungle.” I don’t see it, but some close observers recognize similarities in dialog, especially in the scene where the robbery gang is betrayed by their money man. Also, Anthony Caruso is in both this western and “Asphalt Jungle.” Alan Ladd is a geologist and mining engineer who was framed and sent to prison so a gold strike he discovered could be stolen by an Arizona land baron. When he is released he recruits fellow former inmate Ernest Borgnine and dynamite expert Nehemiah Persoff to help him steal gold ore from a mine shaft lode that Ladd hadn’t told anyone about.
One Foot In Hell / James B. Clark (1960). Ladd puts together a team to bankrupt and ruin the town that he believes is responsible for the death of his wife. Don Murray, Dan O'Herlihy, Barry Coe, and Dolores Michaels (an actress who is impressive here but didn’t have much of a movie career) round out the cast.
Here is a title that may fit the noir western category, but is more of a western and murder mystery mash-up.
Three Hours To Kill / Alfred L. Werker (1954). The plot prefigures a couple of more well-known films that came along a little later. There are the frightened townspeople when a killer returns for revenge as in “High Noon” (1958) and the innocent man who comes near death by lynching and then seeks justice, a theme explored in “Hang ‘Em High” (1968). Dana Andrews is the almost-hanging victim. He wanted to marry Donna Reed but her controlling brother wouldn’t allow it. After brother knocks Andrews unconscious in a fist fight, the brother is shot to death. A mob quickly forms and attempts to string Andrews up, but he gets away with just a wicked rope burn when Reed helps him escape. Now, three years later and tired of running, he returns to find the Real Killer. An old friend of his who has become sheriff allows him three hours, until sundown, to accomplish his task or leave forever lest he be arrested for murder. Suspects abound and, to be honest, I picked the wrong person as the killer. Donna Reed, coming off her Oscar win, is fine as the ingénue in the flashback and as the disillusioned lady with the drawn features in the “present” time. There is some top-notch supporting work from Dianne Foster, Richard Coogan, James Westerfield, and Whit Bissell.
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Post by mikef6 on Jun 14, 2017 16:31:02 GMT
Weird Westerns. A work of speculative fiction whether it be fantasy, science fiction, or horror, etc. that takes place in a Western setting. Examples include The Beast of Hollow Mountain, The Valley of Gwangi, Briscoe County Jr., and Wild Wild West. I guess a modern example is Preacher, both the comic and the tv series. And leave us not forget those two glorious grade-Z cowboy/horror mash-ups Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter (1966) Billy the Kid Versus Dracula (1966)
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Post by mikef6 on Jun 14, 2017 16:34:08 GMT
The Noir western where the lines are blurred between good and bad. "The Naked Spur" might be an example. "Johnny Guitar" is also a radically different type of western though I'm not sure how to categorize it. And how about "High Plains Drifter"? Horror? The classic noir “Kiss of Death (directed by Henry Hathaway) was remade as noir western “The Fiend Who Walked The West” (Gordon Douglas) with (later) important producer but terrible actor Robert Evans in the Richard Widmark psycho killer role.
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Post by teleadm on Jun 14, 2017 17:58:15 GMT
The Hellions 1961 Ken Annakin, it's just like any western, Billings and his four sons rides into small town, and they are no good, causing havoc, with traditional gunplay, the difference is that it takes place in South Africa. Campbell's Kingdom 1957, Ralph Thomas, though it takes place in contemporary times, and in the Canadian Rockies (but made around Cortina d'Ampezzo in Italy). Small town thrift and gunplay, because of an old disargument and landgrabbers, drilling for oil vs dam building. The Singer Not the Song 1960, Roy Ward Baker, Britsh made western that takes place in small Mexican village (but made around Torremolinos, Spain). The new priest clashes with a bandit, Dirk Bogarde in black clad outfit (!!). The Canadians 1961 Burt Kennedy , traditional cowboys and indians but takes place north of the border hinted by this movies title. Composed to acompany this movie was a patriotic song "This Is Canada" sung by opera singer Teresa Stratas (who plays a white squaw in this movie), here is a clip from what I think was a short film that was made to acompany this movie www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4IwbzbmjlQ , if you don't like pariotic Canadian songs, don't look. I död mans spår / Dead Man's Trail 1975 Mats Helge Olsson, sometimes mentioned as one of the worst Swedish movies ever made, mixing western clichés with Swedish sin (female nudity), made at Big Bengt's High Chaparal amusement park. The actors probably had fun wearing cowboy outfits and shooting black bullets, but they shouldn't have filmed it, here is a clip of the embarresment www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIo1o6z29HM .
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Post by mikef6 on Jun 14, 2017 18:17:58 GMT
Some modern western films with an international flavor.
The Salvation / Kristian Levring (2014). This is an interesting way to make a western: a Danish film company and director, actors from all over the world, and location filming in South Africa. What they have come up with is a violent revenge thriller set on the American prairie in 1871. Mads Mikkelsen, Eva Green, and Jeffrey Dean Morgan star. The violence quotient, however, is much, much higher that would have been acceptable in the classic era.
Das finstere Tal (The Dark Valley) / Andreas Prochaska (2014). Basically an American revenge western but set in the Austrian Alps and spoken in German. A familiar story but told in an unusual setting and in modern film language. Very interesting movie.
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Post by koskiewicz on Jun 14, 2017 19:47:10 GMT
The Terror of Tinytown
The Proposition
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 14, 2017 20:00:01 GMT
The Noir western where the lines are blurred between good and bad. "The Naked Spur" might be an example. "Johnny Guitar" is also a radically different type of western though I'm not sure how to categorize it. And how about "High Plains Drifter"? Horror? Great call on the Noir Western OldAussie a couple of favs to add Station West , Ramrod and Blood on the Moon
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 14, 2017 20:06:41 GMT
The Hellions 1961 Ken Annakin, it's just like any western, Billings and his four sons rides into small town, and they are no good, causing havoc, with traditional gunplay, the difference is that it takes place in South Africa. Campbell's Kingdom 1957, Ralph Thomas, though it takes place in contemporary times, and in the Canadian Rockies (but made around Cortina d'Ampezzo in Italy). Small town thrift and gunplay, because of an old disargument and landgrabbers, drilling for oil vs dam building. The Singer Not the Song 1960, Roy Ward Baker, Britsh made western that takes place in small Mexican village (but made around Torremolinos, Spain). The new priest clashes with a bandit, Dirk Bogarde in black clad outfit (!!). The Canadians 1961 Burt Kennedy , traditional cowboys and indians but takes place north of the border hinted by this movies title. Composed to acompany this movie was a patriotic song "This Is Canada" sung by opera singer Teresa Stratas (who plays a white squaw in this movie), here is a clip from what I think was a short film that was made to acompany this movie www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4IwbzbmjlQ , if you don't like pariotic Canadian songs, don't look. I död mans spår / Dead Man's Trail 1975 Mats Helge Olsson, sometimes mentioned as one of the worst Swedish movies ever made, mixing western clichés with Swedish sin (female nudity), made at Big Bengt's High Chaparal amusement park. The actors probably had fun wearing cowboy outfits and shooting black bullets, but they shouldn't have filmed it, here is a clip of the embarresment www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIo1o6z29HM . Thanks teleadm was most interested to learn of those British titles and thanks for the warning for Dead Man's Trail sounds like could it be so bad it's good ? I'll check out the clip later today...
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Post by Doghouse6 on Jun 14, 2017 20:30:26 GMT
In spite of my long-held contention that all any decent director needs to create stirring cinema is a camera and horses, westerns have never really been my bale o'hay. Those of which I'm fond have been the ones that offer something a little off the well-trodden trail: the lightness, warmth and sincerity of 1939's Destry Rides Again; the introspection of 1950's The Gunfighter; the psychological suspense of 1951's High Noon or 1957's 3:10 To Yuma; the dry wit of 1968's Support Your Local Sheriff; the elegiac melancholy of 1969's The Wild Bunch. So, my tastes in oaters being neither sophisticated nor broadly-informed, I have no idea whether this submission is well-enough represented to qualify as a sub-genre: The Spooky Whodunnit Western.
5 Card Stud (1968) - Standard earmarks are well in evidence: horses and shootouts; ranchers and dusty frontier towns; straight-arrow sheriffs and dastardly lynchings; independent drifters and mysterious strangers; wide-open spaces and abundant sunshine; saloons and poker games. In spite of these elements, old hand Henry Hathaway's film effectively evokes the foreboding mood of an "old dark house" thriller with shadowy figures skulking in the night, atmospherically-whistling winds and a systematic series of murders as the players in an ill-fated hand of the titular card game are bumped off one by one. It's these contrasts that deliver a fair share of the entertainment value, with the mood further enhanced by Maurice Jarre's discordant, minor-key and distinctly un-western music score.
Followers of the whodunnit form will likely have little trouble in sussing out the killer before the official revelation, but the fun is had in the mutual suspicions of those involved in the game and its homicidal results, their cat-and-mouse strategies of detection and survival, and some offbeat casting. Stars Dean Martin and Robert Mitchum comfortably revisit familiar territory with smooth aplomb and western stalwarts such as Denver Pyle and John Anderson are right at home, but Roddy McDowall as a slimy ne'er-do-well, Inger Stevens as an enterprising "shady lady" and Yaphet Kotto as a barman who may know too much add some unexpected interest to the lineup.
The story's pedigree may offer more mystery than the story itself. The basic premise appears to be a reworking of the 1950 urban noir Dark City, and both films were produced at Paramount by Hal Wallis. Yet 5 Card Stud credits only a Ray Gaulden novel, published 17 years after the earlier film, as source material, with the original short story ("No Escape") by Lawrence B. Marcus or his 1950 screenplay with John Meredyth Lucas uncredited.
No matter. 5 Card Stud provides unpretentious but thoroughly enjoyable diversion as a colorful cast of seasoned pros bring their well-honed talents to a horse opera with an intriguing touch of Grand Guignol.
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 14, 2017 20:30:46 GMT
A couple of western “caper” films, both with Alan Ladd. The Badlanders / Delmer Davis (1958). This is often described as a loose remake of “The Asphalt Jungle.” I don’t see it, but some close observers recognize similarities in dialog, especially in the scene where the robbery gang is betrayed by their money man. Also, Anthony Caruso is in both this western and “Asphalt Jungle.” Alan Ladd is a geologist and mining engineer who was framed and sent to prison so a gold strike he discovered could be stolen by an Arizona land baron. When he is released he recruits fellow former inmate Ernest Borgnine and dynamite expert Nehemiah Persoff to help him steal gold ore from a mine shaft lode that Ladd hadn’t told anyone about. One Foot In Hell / James B. Clark (1960). Ladd puts together a team to bankrupt and ruin the town that he believes is responsible for the death of his wife. Don Murray, Dan O'Herlihy, Barry Coe, and Dolores Michaels (an actress who is impressive here but didn’t have much of a movie career) round out the cast. Here is a title that may fit the noir western category, but is more of a western and murder mystery mash-up. Three Hours To Kill / Alfred L. Werker (1954). The plot prefigures a couple of more well-known films that came along a little later. There are the frightened townspeople when a killer returns for revenge as in “High Noon” (1958) and the innocent man who comes near death by lynching and then seeks justice, a theme explored in “Hang ‘Em High” (1968). Dana Andrews is the almost-hanging victim. He wanted to marry Donna Reed but her controlling brother wouldn’t allow it. After brother knocks Andrews unconscious in a fist fight, the brother is shot to death. A mob quickly forms and attempts to string Andrews up, but he gets away with just a wicked rope burn when Reed helps him escape. Now, three years later and tired of running, he returns to find the Real Killer. An old friend of his who has become sheriff allows him three hours, until sundown, to accomplish his task or leave forever lest he be arrested for murder. Suspects abound and, to be honest, I picked the wrong person as the killer. Donna Reed, coming off her Oscar win, is fine as the ingénue in the flashback and as the disillusioned lady with the drawn features in the “present” time. There is some top-notch supporting work from Dianne Foster, Richard Coogan, James Westerfield, and Whit Bissell. Thanks mikef6 great additions and reviews I was particularly interested in Three Hours to Kill one to track down ...
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 14, 2017 20:37:55 GMT
Weird Westerns. A work of speculative fiction whether it be fantasy, science fiction, or horror, etc. that takes place in a Western setting. Examples include The Beast of Hollow Mountain, The Valley of Gwangi, Briscoe County Jr., and Wild Wild West. I guess a modern example is Preacher, both the comic and the tv series. Weird Westerns thanks politicidal that is a very interesting addition, and some great examples looking over my shelves I could maybe add here Rimfire (1949)
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Post by london777 on Jun 15, 2017 1:30:30 GMT
Weird Westerns. A work of speculative fiction whether it be fantasy, science fiction, or horror, etc. that takes place in a Western setting. Examples include The Beast of Hollow Mountain, The Valley of Gwangi, Briscoe County Jr., and Wild Wild West. I guess a modern example is Preacher, both the comic and the tv series. I would say if they are recognizably other genres, and just set in "The West" they are not westerns. I think westerns must conform to certain conventions of plot and character or imply them by ringing the changes, or by subverting them or by cross-fertilizing them with other genres. It is not down to the geographical setting. We do not have genres called "Eastern Seaboarders" or "Corn Belters". Just being set in Louisana or Mississippi does not entitle a film to be called "Southern Gothic". It has other criteria to meet. I have not seen any of the films you list, but perhaps they would satisfy my cross-fertilization category? For example, I have seen (enough/too much of) Cowboys and Aliens (2011) and that is not a western. If the resistance had been Welsh miners or Finnish reindeer herders the plot and characterization would have worked equally well (or equally badly).
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Post by london777 on Jun 15, 2017 2:42:47 GMT
I despise the traditional western for its ethos but I can warm to some of those which seek to deconstruct it.
I propose the following sub-genres to manfromplanetx, although they may overlap with some already mentioned:
The Ecological Western Those which deplore the destruction of the environment. This sub-genre has deep roots as conservatives can be ardent conservationists, but it has had a facelift in recent decades.
I have never seen Hud (1963) but a friend called it "The first vegetarian cowboy film". Did he have a point?
The Marxist Western Depicts progress through class conflict. I would put Once Upon a Time in the West in this group. It is not a Spaghetti Western. It does not even fulfill mfpx's own criteria: Italian language - NO, mostly Murican low budget - NO recognizable highly stylized conception - YES, the look is Spaghetti but spaghetti from a classy restaurant, not from a working man's osteria Fluid - Not sure what this means, but there are numerous very long-held shots and static camera positions, so I guess not fluid. violent - Not particularly for a western. Average body count minimalist cinematography - HELL NO!
It looks like a revenge western, but the last word is not with Bronson. He disappears into the dust of history along with Robards and Fonda. The final shot with confirmatory and (to me) moving music, is of the unstoppable advance of corporate capitalism (the railway) and of Cardinale's compassion for the (mostly non-white) workers. She understands how the world is changing, as does Morton the rail baron. They probably took classes in dialectical materialism back East.
The Mystical Western Dead Man (1995) Jim Jarmusch
The Anti-Racist Western All of them these days, but some made it the main theme.
The Anti-Colonial Western Numerous depicting the genocide of Native Americans Also: The Proposition (2005) John Hillcoat
Too much overlap between the previous two to call them separate categories
The Road Movie Western OK, I am cheating here. This is not a separate genre but a hybrid of two established genres. But there are an awful lot of them, which is unsurprising since the history of the West is that of people driven on a quest. The criterion of a Road Movie is that at least one of the protagonists experiences a change of heart, or spiritual or psychological change as a result of the journey. An interesting recent one which seems to have slipped past unnoticed, despite starring the currently fashionable Michael Fassbender and Ben Mendelsohn, is Slow West (2015). It is also a Revenge Western and an Ecological Western.
The Social Realist Western Tommy Lee Jones seems to make westerns which utilize the traditional theme of doing what is right although it is hard, but with painful realism and complexity unlike the mythical world of the traditional western. The Homesman (2014) is a brilliant and much underrated movie. This is what the west was really like. Though it does have one sequence (when the hotel burns) which is straight out of a Clint Eastwood "mystical" western, or even out of David Lynch, it so surreal. And the last shots are lyrical. It is also a Road Movie, by the way, with the getting of wisdom through a journey.
The film also has an unusual plot structure, but I will start a separate thread on that.
The Black Comedy Western There Was a Crooked Man (1970) Joseph L. Mankiewicz A lot of dry humor and a sly ending where the cleverest crook wins.
The NOT a friggin' Western! As stated above, the fact they are on horseback and wearing cowboy hats does not make it a western, regardless of the location. These are not westerns, though I have seen them called that: Hell or High Water (2016) - a crime caper with family problems Ride With the Devil (1999) - a Civil war movie Lone Star (1996) - a police investigation with family problems (to put it lightly) The Last of the Mohicans (2015) - a historical
What about The Hateful Eight (2015) Quentin Tarantino? Well, it is a real hybrid of genres, but more than anything it belongs with the Agatha Christie drawing-room thrillers, where all the suspects are confined to one room and gradually get killed off, finally revealing the killer.
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 15, 2017 4:15:47 GMT
I despise the traditional western for its ethos but I can warm to some of those which seek to deconstruct it. I propose the following sub-genres to manfromplanetx, although they may overlap with some already mentioned: Thanks london777 , for sharing your imaginative thoughts on the subject, they raise some relevant points for consideration.
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Post by rateater on Jun 15, 2017 4:23:59 GMT
the space western
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Post by manfromplanetx on Jun 15, 2017 5:22:56 GMT
"Gothic, revisionist, psychological, avant-garde, noir, melodrama", a film which seems to defy a straightforward Western subgenre category, consensus among the critics and historians. Stylistically audacious, captivating, delirious, floridly melodramatic. Samuel Fuller's Forty Guns (1957) has got it all.... The Gothic element...
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Post by OldAussie on Jun 15, 2017 7:43:07 GMT
Heaven's Gate definitely falls into this category. The conflict is all about class warfare. The film itself overtly acknowledges this several times. Toss in Viva Zapata and another Leone, A Fistful of Dynamite too.
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