PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 18, 2017 14:46:55 GMT
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Post by Vegas on Jun 18, 2017 14:49:26 GMT
Well, I'll be damned....  |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jun 18, 2017 15:34:40 GMT
I doubt any of those benefits are specific to prayer as opposed to meditation. I'm generally not opposed to prayer in cases where there's nothing practical that one can do (like donating money or time/effort to a cause). It certainly doesn't follow that just because prayer has some benefits (that, again, may not be different than meditation) that we have a moral responsibility not to criticize a belief in God. In order to argue that you'd have to show that the negatives of such a belief outweigh the positives, and good luck with that.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 18, 2017 15:44:43 GMT
I doubt any of those benefits are specific to prayer as opposed to meditation. I'm generally not opposed to prayer in cases where there's nothing practical that one can do (like donating money or time/effort to a cause). It certainly doesn't follow that just because prayer has some benefits (that, again, may not be different than meditation) that we have a moral responsibility not to criticize a belief in God. In order to argue that you'd have to show that the negatives of such a belief outweigh the positives, and good luck with that. Why do you think that? Sure meditation could do some of the above but could it really some of the more surprising things on the list? Not everybody can meditate due to not being able to sit still and there are those who can but don't want to so prayer will have to do as a substitute until people realise they should meditate. There are no negatives to believing in a god as long as it doesn't influence one's ethical beliefs. |
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 18, 2017 15:45:11 GMT
We absolutely have the moral responsibility to criticize praying if it's to/for/about the wrong thing. And frankly, we should criticize embracing superstition and ignorance. The only effect prayer has on anyone is psychological. The same effect could be achieved by acknowledging what's actually going on, rather than attributing the positive effects on some magical, supernatural entity that supposedly cares about your little life in the grand scheme of things. Religion is really a form of self-centered narcissism. It's essentially the idea that you are so "important" that a supernatural, created of all things should invest special interest in the things you personally find important.
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 18, 2017 15:48:26 GMT
I doubt any of those benefits are specific to prayer as opposed to meditation. I'm generally not opposed to prayer in cases where there's nothing practical that one can do (like donating money or time/effort to a cause). It certainly doesn't follow that just because prayer has some benefits (that, again, may not be different than meditation) that we have a moral responsibility not to criticize a belief in God. In order to argue that you'd have to show that the negatives of such a belief outweigh the positives, and good luck with that. Why do you think that? Sure meditation could do some of the above but could it really some of the more surprising things on the list? Not everybody can meditate due to not being able to sit still and there are those who can but don't want to so prayer will have to do as a substitute until people realise they should meditate. There are no negatives to believing in a god as long as it doesn't influence one's ethical beliefs. And exactly what percentage of believers does this actually apply to? Seems to me that the vast majority of believers ethical beliefs are indeed influenced by their religious faith. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jun 18, 2017 16:37:43 GMT
I doubt any of those benefits are specific to prayer as opposed to meditation. I'm generally not opposed to prayer in cases where there's nothing practical that one can do (like donating money or time/effort to a cause). It certainly doesn't follow that just because prayer has some benefits (that, again, may not be different than meditation) that we have a moral responsibility not to criticize a belief in God. In order to argue that you'd have to show that the negatives of such a belief outweigh the positives, and good luck with that. Why do you think that? Sure meditation could do some of the above but could it really some of the more surprising things on the list? Not everybody can meditate due to not being able to sit still and there are those who can but don't want to so prayer will have to do as a substitute until people realise they should meditate. Because there's not much fundamental difference between prayer and meditation; the biggest is that in the former you think someone's listening. You don't have to do anything differently for meditation than you do for prayer. I'm not sure which of the "surprising" benefits you think would be unique to prayer. I'd say that accounts for a vanishingly small minority of believers. Further, there can be negatives when you substitute a belief in God for doing practical things that could make a bigger impact on whatever it is you want to accomplish; ie, praying for healing VS getting medical treatment. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 18, 2017 16:50:42 GMT
Actually yes we do, particularly if a football team are praying for a game, praying to be healed instead of going to a doctor, or praying for someone to be dead. Simply because praying has "meditative" benefits doesn't make it acceptable to pray for absurd nonsense. I don't think even most reasonable Christians/theists would agree with you.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 18, 2017 16:53:03 GMT
Why do you think that? Sure meditation could do some of the above but could it really some of the more surprising things on the list? Not everybody can meditate due to not being able to sit still and there are those who can but don't want to so prayer will have to do as a substitute until people realise they should meditate. Because there's not much fundamental difference between prayer and meditation; the biggest is that in the former you think someone's listening. You don't have to do anything differently for meditation than you do for prayer. I'm not sure which of the "surprising" benefits you think would be unique to prayer. I'd say that accounts for a vanishingly small minority of believers. Further, there can be negatives when you substitute a belief in God for doing practical things that could make a bigger impact on whatever it is you want to accomplish; ie, praying for healing VS getting medical treatment. Ok then. A belief in a god isn't harmful if it doesn't influence your ethical beliefs or encourage you to not to act. The above is not the case for the vast majority of those in the first world. Regardless we still shouldn't be criticising praying or a belief in a god becuase the problem is divine command theory and thinking god will do it all for you or at least thinking it is a possibility he will. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jun 18, 2017 17:14:18 GMT
Because there's not much fundamental difference between prayer and meditation; the biggest is that in the former you think someone's listening. You don't have to do anything differently for meditation than you do for prayer. I'm not sure which of the "surprising" benefits you think would be unique to prayer. I'd say that accounts for a vanishingly small minority of believers. Further, there can be negatives when you substitute a belief in God for doing practical things that could make a bigger impact on whatever it is you want to accomplish; ie, praying for healing VS getting medical treatment. Regardless we still shouldn't be criticising praying or a belief in a god becuase the problem is divine command theory and thinking god will do it all for you or at least thinking it is a possibility he will. You lost me here. |
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 18, 2017 17:26:53 GMT
Regardless we still shouldn't be criticising praying or a belief in a god becuase the problem is divine command theory and thinking god will do it all for you or at least thinking it is a possibility he will. You lost me here. I don't understand why. If you want to stop people from deriving their ethical views from religion then you should criticise divine command theory. Just like if your kid is really worried Santa won't bring him presents you don't say "Well son Santa isn't real". What you should do is convince him he will get presents. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jun 18, 2017 17:43:44 GMT
I don't understand why. If you want to stop people from deriving their ethical views from religion then you should criticise divine command theory. Just like if your kid is really worried Santa won't bring him presents you don't say "Well son Santa isn't real". What you should do is convince him he will get presents. I don't know how you criticize divine command theory without criticizing the notion that there's a god to begin with. |
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 18, 2017 17:47:29 GMT
I don't understand why. If you want to stop people from deriving their ethical views from religion then you should criticise divine command theory. Just like if your kid is really worried Santa won't bring him presents you don't say "Well son Santa isn't real". What you should do is convince him he will get presents. I don't know how you criticize divine command theory without criticizing the notion that there's a god to begin with. Well there is Sam Harris' theory on science and morality. I don't buy it but it is perfectly compatible with the existence of a god. |
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Post by general313 on Jun 18, 2017 18:05:13 GMT
Actually yes we do, particularly if a football team are praying for a game, praying to be healed instead of going to a doctor, or praying for someone to be dead. Simply because praying has "meditative" benefits doesn't make it acceptable to pray for absurd nonsense. I don't think even most reasonable Christians/theists would agree with you. |
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Post by progressiveelement on Jun 18, 2017 19:56:06 GMT
Why would it be immoral to be just a wee bit skeptical?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 20:07:36 GMT
This is specifically related to a certain type of prayer. It should really be qualified. Prayer for your team to beat the opposition or to get a job in lieu of others being hired negates most of these. That said, I've always thought that good thoughts towards others can't be a bad thing, regardless of one's religious affiliation. |
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Post by johnblutarsky on Jun 19, 2017 16:56:28 GMT
There are no negatives to believing in a god as long as it doesn't influence one's ethical beliefs. What if your ethical beliefs are based on your holy book.....and that holy book tells you to harm/kill people who do not think like you do? That's pretty negative. |
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 19, 2017 18:54:00 GMT
I don't know how you criticize divine command theory without criticizing the notion that there's a god to begin with. There's been quite a few criticisms of it from theists over the years. Plato most famously, but even within Christianity there's been those who are dubious about it. Leibniz for instance thought it incoherent since God is supposedly good but that would require him to obey his own commands which Leibniz thought nonsensical. |
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vernuf
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Post by vernuf on Jun 19, 2017 18:58:33 GMT
I was promised a reason to have a moral responsibility to not criticize prayer or a belief in god. Sadly, it wasn't provided.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jun 19, 2017 22:11:22 GMT
Article is solid but thread title is ludicrous. Eating corn can provide health benefits. This does not, by extension, mean corn's cultivation and growth hasn't led to a plethora of issues as a mono-crop, along with the accompanying criticisms. As with so many of the OP's threads, the logic is inches deep, the issue itself a chasm. That a practice can provide positives is by no means an indication it doesn't carry or lead to accompanying negatives. Black/white thinking is silly. |
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