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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 21:04:10 GMT
No, MCU treats that stuff seriously too. Their detractors just say their scenes are loaded with jokes when they really aren't. There weren't any jokes when T'Chaka died, just off the top of my head.
WW is in the MCU's mold. And that's what DCEU Fanatics just can't stand.
When they have to make up "facts" to support their argument , you know they don't have a strong case. DC-Fan is a very experienced fact-make-upper. He is still not very good at it but he is experienced. You should ask him about Batman being a murdering coward. Thats fun.
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Post by Atom(ica) Discord on Jun 26, 2017 21:40:52 GMT
Yeah, this is why I have nothing but immense hatred for the three prior DCEU films. Never let Randists and Nihilists run the asylum. A superhero film should never be made by someone who thinks people are incapable of looking "#1" and being truly selfish. Ayn Rand has much to answer for in creating people like Snyder. Has Snyder confirmed being a student of Objectivist philosophy? If he has, would explain a lot regarding his work on the DCEU.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 21:55:41 GMT
Yeah, this is why I have nothing but immense hatred for the three prior DCEU films. Never let Randists and Nihilists run the asylum. A superhero film should never be made by someone who thinks people are incapable of looking "#1" and being truly selfish. Ayn Rand has much to answer for in creating people like Snyder. Has Snyder confirmed being a student of Objectivist philosophy? If he has, would explain a lot regarding his work on the DCEU. Does he need to? Look at his work.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 26, 2017 23:06:54 GMT
An unlikely candidate for heroism gets endowed with extraordinary power, and sets off into a world-consuming war, via London, in order to stop a German scientist and rogue general from unleashing a terrible weapon (born of mystical power) that could change the course of the war. Along the way, our hero picks up a diverse group of rag-tag fighters, who help to reach that mission objective. In the end, the hero destroys the villain, before a massive plane carrying the weapon can destroy Allied forces. However, that victory comes at the price of the hero losing his/her closest confidant, and a deep romance ends up going unrequited. Is that First Avenger or Wonder Woman? That certainly isn't Wonder Woman. 1st, Diana isn't an unlikely candidate for heroism. Ares said himself "Zeus left the child he had with the Queen of the Amazons as a weapon to use against me." Diana is the Zeus' daughter. So Diana isn't an unlikely candidate. Diana was born to be the Godkiller. 2nd, Doctor Poison was developing a poisonous gas that's hydrogen-based. It was just a matter of finding the right chemical formula for the gas. Nothing mystical or hocus-pocus or voodoo about that. 3rd, Diana and Steve's romance doesn't go unrequited. They do in fact share an intimate evening together before the last battle. 4th, Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter had no romance. They never spent an evening together, never even went out on a date. There was no romance between Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter. That was the worst "romantic coupling" in CBM history.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jun 26, 2017 23:16:01 GMT
An unlikely candidate for heroism gets endowed with extraordinary power, and sets off into a world-consuming war, via London, in order to stop a German scientist and rogue general from unleashing a terrible weapon (born of mystical power) that could change the course of the war. Along the way, our hero picks up a diverse group of rag-tag fighters, who help to reach that mission objective. In the end, the hero destroys the villain, before a massive plane carrying the weapon can destroy Allied forces. However, that victory comes at the price of the hero losing his/her closest confidant, and a deep romance ends up going unrequited. Diana is presented as an unlikely candidate, though they go for that cliché "Prophecy Heroine" nonsense by the end. Dr Poison got her breakthroughs thanks to Ares Peggy and Steve's romance wasn't unrequited by the end. And yes, they did have a romance. A better one than Steve and Diana, mainly because Steve and Peggy knew each other for more than a few days. WW rushed things royally.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 26, 2017 23:16:37 GMT
Nope. If Wonder Woman were an MCU movie, than there would be plenty of jokes and 1-liners when they showed the injured soldiers with amputated limbs and showed the women and children that were killed by poisonous gas. If Wonder Woman were an MCU movie, then the No Man's Land scene would've been filled with jokes and 1-liners.
Wonder Woman has the right balance between the lighter moments (Diana and Steve talking on the boat ride to London, Diana shopping for civilian clothes, Diana and Steve dancing in the snow) and the more serious moments (the horrors and brutality of war - injured soliders with amputated limbs, women and children dead from poisonous gas, the No Man's Land scene). That's something that MCU still hasn't figured out how to do right after 15 movies.
No, MCU treats that stuff seriously too. Their detractors just say their scenes are loaded with jokes when they really aren't.
Age of Ultron - While people are being injured or killed during the final battle, Hawkeye is busy talking to Black Widow about how he's going to remodel his kitchen. Quicksilver gets riddled with bullets and then just before he falls over and dies says to Hawkeye "You didn't see that coming."
Like I said, MCU always trivializes war and death with lame jokes and 1-liners.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jun 26, 2017 23:32:01 GMT
No, MCU treats that stuff seriously too. Their detractors just say their scenes are loaded with jokes when they really aren't.
Age of Ultron - While people are being injured or killed during the final battle, Hawkeye is busy talking to Black Widow about how he's going to remodel his kitchen. Quicksilver gets riddled with bullets and then just before he falls over and dies says to Hawkeye "You didn't see that coming."
Like I said, MCU always trivializes war and death with lame jokes and 1-liners.
Gallow's Humor, it exists.
Shock over someone dying, you babble anything to process what you've just seen.
It's not trivial, it's just how some people accept things. Or in this case, that Hawkeye is a hardened dude. Like how James Bond makes cracks when he kills someone.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jun 27, 2017 1:59:57 GMT
No, MCU treats that stuff seriously too. Their detractors just say their scenes are loaded with jokes when they really aren't.
Age of Ultron - While people are being injured or killed during the final battle, Hawkeye is busy talking to Black Widow about how he's going to remodel his kitchen. Quicksilver gets riddled with bullets and then just before he falls over and dies says to Hawkeye "You didn't see that coming."
Like I said, MCU always trivializes war and death with lame jokes and 1-liners.
First off, you clearly didn't even watch AoU because Roger never threw the shield at Strucker. He just kicked it in the air into his chest. Yeah, he didn't die. And no matter how many times you try tell yourself he died, you're still wrong. And the battle was over when Hawkeye and BW were driving to the lifeboats. Pretty much everyone was out of the city by then. There was nothing wrong with that dialogue, it was to provide a little levity. You're just nitpicking like a little bitch because you don't like Marvel and how successful they are. And you clearly missed the whole point behind the line when he said it before he died. Him and Hawkeye had developed a bit of a friendly rivalry through the film as Hawkeye had stole that line and used it against him earlier, so it was meant as an ironic echo between the two of them. And the more you say "the Avengers just stand around and make jokes while people are dying", doesn't make it or you right.
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Post by sostie on Jun 27, 2017 11:34:07 GMT
Age of Ultron - While people are being injured or killed during the final battle, Hawkeye is busy talking to Black Widow about how he's going to remodel his kitchen. Quicksilver gets riddled with bullets and then just before he falls over and dies says to Hawkeye "You didn't see that coming."
Like I said, MCU always trivializes war and death with lame jokes and 1-liners.
First off, you clearly didn't even watch AoU because Roger never threw the shield at Strucker. I genuinely think he hasn't seen any of the Marvel films he criticises. Some of the stuff he says happened are just made up.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 27, 2017 13:21:07 GMT
Yeah, this is why I have nothing but immense hatred for the three prior DCEU films. Never let Randists and Nihilists run the asylum. A superhero film should never be made by someone who thinks people are incapable of looking "#1" and being truly selfish. Ayn Rand has much to answer for in creating people like Snyder. I was going to quote that exact section of the article as well. Dead on and tragically hilarious. It's as if superhero deconstructions are the only superhero stories he ever read. If you only listen to cynics like Alan Moore you're not going to have a positive viewpoint on the human condition. I'd say the article is too kind to the BvS version of Batman. He is clearly a supervillain in that story who thrives on micromanaging his entire world. Anyone who disrupts the status quo will face his wrath, especially an alien sun god who represents the ultimate threat to Bruce's authority. Listen to his dialog in that flick. "If there's even a 1% chance he's a threat, we have to take that as an absolute certainty." "The world only makes sense if you force it to." These are not the words of a hero with a "somber responsibility." They are the words of a megalomaniac hellbent on controlling everything and everyone around him. And for the record, I love that character. One of the most fleshed out villains in the history of cinema. Too bad they remembered in the last 20 minutes of BvS that he's supposed to anchor a superhero franchise and lightened him up a little. I also enjoyed 300 for all its ridiculousness. Watchmen as well. But none of those films are particularly deep. Snyder sees exaggeration and caricature as cinematic art forms-- he translates the printed page of comic books to film and somehow removes depth instead of adding it. I suppose that's a frequent problem with any literary adaptation to the screen, but nobody else does it with such intent. Ozymandias should have been one of the most complex characters in the history of film, instead we got a stock James Bond villain. Snyder sets his sights on a theme but doesn't know how to articulate those concepts. He lacks emotional IQ, it's as if part of his mind never progressed beyond the age of 15. I don't have the answers, I only know the DCEU is complete trash with the exception of WW-- and to accomplish that, they had to borrow heavily from their supposed 'competition,' which up until this point they had gone out of their way to do the opposite. It'll be interesting to see what direction the DCEU takes from here on out.
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Post by thenewnexus on Jun 27, 2017 15:37:11 GMT
A good article from Polygon which reiterates the inherent flaws of the DCEU vision. The double edged sword of Wonder Woman's runaway success is that it forces us to acknowledge the narcissistic and egotistical nature of Snyder's early vision. The DCEU now has to reconcile these two wildly disparate visions. The complete text follows below.
Warner Bros. executives breathed a collective sigh of relief two weeks ago when Wonder Woman debuted to massive box office receipts and widespread critical acclaim. It’s the first unequivocal hit for the new DC Extended Universe, and the timing couldn’t be better given the public’s growing exhaustion with the franchise. Though commercially successful, Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Suicide Squad were not quite as successful as The Avengers (all three were also critically panned), and patience seemed to be fading after a Justice League trailer that looked to be more of the same. It’s therefore unsurprising that Warner Bros. has been quick to cash in some of the goodwill it earned with Wonder Woman. The studio promptly announced that Robin Wright’s Antiope and Connie Nielsen’s Hippolyta would both be reprising their roles in the upcoming Justice League, and while that was probably always the case, the timing of the announcement seems significant. With several months to go, the Warner Bros. marketing team is eager to associate Justice League with the one movie that people liked instead of the three they didn’t. However, that does raise some interesting questions for the future. Patty Jenkins’ Wonder Woman is so different from the rest of the DCEU that I have no idea how it fits into the broader enterprise, and I say that knowing full well that Gal Gadot already appeared in Batman vs. Superman. It feels like we’re watching a battle for the soul of the DCEU, and it’s going to be difficult for Warner Bros. to reconcile the two creative visions moving forward. That has more to do with theme than it does with any specific character. Wonder Woman is optimistic. Gal Godot’s Diana wants to be a hero. She leaves Themyscira to be a hero, and while her faith is tested, her resolve ultimately holds. She climbs out of the trenches in WWI because there are human lives at stake and she’s going to protect them. Hers is a movie about a superhero making the choice to be a superhero, without any expectation of praise or reward. That’s more or less the elevator pitch for superheroes as a concept, but it’s strangely at odds with everything we’ve seen from the DCEU thus far. Prior to Wonder Woman, DC’s output included two grim deconstructions of Superman and a third film about supervillains. All three have been skeptical of altruism as a concept, as if the most implausible thing about superhero movies is the hero’s willingness to help other people.Most of that trickles down from director Zack Snyder, the primary architect of the DCEU. In his two Superman outings, Snyder struggles with the idea of basic human decency. In fact, it seems to be utterly mystifying to him. Kevin Costner’s Jonathan Kent spent most of his screen time in Man of Steel trying to convince Clark not to be Superman, to the point that he was willing to die so his son wouldn’t have to be a hero. He lets himself get picked up in a tornado instead of letting actual Superman carry him to safety, based only on the assumption that there would be witnesses and that Clark would then become a public figure.The sequence is absurd to the point of parody, but it informs much of the DCEU. Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Suicide Squad all espouse a fundamentally selfish worldview — where heroism is a test of self, not a service performed for other people. Batman views it a somber responsibility, forcing himself into action because he believes he’s the only individual with the ability to stand against Superman. Meanwhile, the protagonists in David Ayer’s Suicide Squad are incarcerated supervillains, mercenaries who will save the world because they expect to be compensated and/or they’ll be punished if they don’t. Amanda Waller runs the show as a government operative (and ostensible good guy) who argues that coercion is more reliable than doomed altruism before murdering her fellow agents to cover her own tracks.In both cases, there’s an inherent mistrust of selfless behavior, as if no one ever does a good deed unless that good deed is incentivized. In Snyder’s DCEU, superheroes aren’t volunteers. They’re either gods saddled with a heavy burden, or conscripts recruited against their will.That’s what makes Wonder Woman — ironically the only true god of the bunch — such a striking contrast. Beginning with the alternate creation myth in which humanity is built in the image of a benevolent Zeus, Patty Jenkins’ film assumes that people are compassionate. Even the villains are afforded a relative degree of humanity. The German soldiers are not evil, but are merely under the influence of the manipulative God of War. People on both sides of the conflict are misguided yet noble, and Diana willingly defends her utopian vision of what humanity could be at its best instead of what it sinks to at its worst. She also stands next to people in a way that Batman and Superman do not, fighting side-by-side with Steve, Charlie, Chief, and Sameer for a shared set of principles. That’s the other thing that separates Wonder Woman from the rest of the DCEU. From London to the trenches to a little village in Belgium, Wonder Woman is filled with workaday civilians. When that little village falls, it clarifies the stakes for everyone in the audience. We understand what Diana is fighting for because we understand our position relative to the protagonist. THE AUDIENCE DOESN’T HAVE A PLACE IN SNYDER’S DCEUIn comparison, Snyder’s DCEU is cold and empty. Man of Steel received deserved criticism for Superman’s complete disinterest in search and rescue and the implied body count during the final battle. Snyder heard those complaints. Bruce Wayne retroactively saves a few of those citizens in the opening of Batman vs. Superman, but Snyder’s primary solution is depopulation. We’re told that the fight with Doomsday takes place in an abandoned lot so we don’t have to worry about collateral damage. It’s telling only because it indicates that the audience doesn’t have a place in Snyder’s DCEU. He wants to see Batman have a dustup with Superman, and he’s not overly concerned about how mere mortals relate to the personal struggles of gods. Metropolis and Gotham are not densely populated urban centers. They’re backdrops for a test of wills, a one-on-one contest to determine who has suffered more. That will be the real challenge for Warner Bros. moving forward. Despite the critiques, there’s nothing wrong with the premise of Batman vs. Superman. A deconstruction isn’t as effective if you didn’t take the time to build someone up in the first place, but there is something noble about a person’s willingness to sacrifice for the greater good. The problem is that Snyder’s DCEU is fueled entirely by ego. His superheroes are Nietzsche’s ubermensch, figures that are so powerful that their motives are somehow beyond the comprehension of the peons who can only get close to Superman when they buy a ticket. It’s as if he expects us to worship his Superman because we’re supposed to show deference to a superior being, a request that’s off-putting because it’s so condescending. With Wonder Woman, Patty Jenkins has returned the focus to humanity writ large. She recognizes that superheroes resonate precisely because their stories are familiar. Yes, Diana is better than the rest of us. As a fictional character, she can do things we can’t, from both a moral and physical perspective. However, that doesn’t make her alien. In the film, her actions instill the allied forces with courage and resolve. The later heroics of Steve, Sameer & Co are less spectacular, but their contributions are no less meaningful and the audience is equally able to learn from that example. Diana inspires everyone around her to be better. That gives the film genuine warmth and makes Wonder Woman relevant to anyone watching in a theater. Now Warner Bros. simply has to make a choice. Is the DCEU a distant fight club reserved for gods, or is it a place that amplifies our core values, a playground where anyone can go to recognize an aspect of themselves? Given the positive response to Wonder Woman — combined with the Nightwing movie from the The Lego Batman Movie director Chris McKay and the upcoming Batgirl film from noted ensemble enthusiast Joss Whedon — I’d expect the DCEU to bend towards the latter. Wonder Woman has proven that DC’s characters can connect with audiences, and there’s no longer any reason to hold them to a separate standard. I dont love its an average movie at best better than the last couple of Marvel and DC films. Its gots lots of flaws. Some people are calling it best superhero movie of all time. Not even close. Miscast lead,villain and bad writing. There is stuff to praise, doesn't male the bad go away.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 17:38:35 GMT
I was going to quote that exact section of the article as well. Dead on and tragically hilarious. It's as if superhero deconstructions are the only superhero stories he ever read. If you only listen to cynics like Alan Moore you're not going to have a positive viewpoint on the human condition. I'd say the article is too kind to the BvS version of Batman. He is clearly a supervillain in that story who thrives on micromanaging his entire world. Anyone who disrupts the status quo will face his wrath, especially an alien sun god who represents the ultimate threat to Bruce's authority. Listen to his dialog in that flick. "If there's even a 1% chance he's a threat, we have to take that as an absolute certainty." "The world only makes sense if you force it to." These are not the words of a hero with a "somber responsibility." They are the words of a megalomaniac hellbent on controlling everything and everyone around him. And for the record, I love that character. One of the most fleshed out villains in the history of cinema. Too bad they remembered in the last 20 minutes of BvS that he's supposed to anchor a superhero franchise and lightened him up a little. I also enjoyed 300 for all its ridiculousness. Watchmen as well. But none of those films are particularly deep. Snyder sees exaggeration and caricature as cinematic art forms-- he translates the printed page of comic books to film and somehow removes depth instead of adding it. I suppose that's a frequent problem with any literary adaptation to the screen, but nobody else does it with such intent. Ozymandias should have been one of the most complex characters in the history of film, instead we got a stock James Bond villain. Snyder sets his sights on a theme but doesn't know how to articulate those concepts. He lacks emotional IQ, it's as if part of his mind never progressed beyond the age of 15. I don't have the answers, I only know the DCEU is complete trash with the exception of WW-- and to accomplish that, they had to borrow heavily from their supposed 'competition,' which up until this point they had gone out of their way to do the opposite. It'll be interesting to see what direction the DCEU takes from here on out. And the fact there are people who are eating that shit up is distressing. It'll be just as distressing when they express disappointment when altruism takes over as the reason for why the heroes do things in the DCEU. In any case, if WB/DC learns the right lesson from Wonder Woman, there are good things to come.
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Post by gromel on Jul 1, 2017 3:11:35 GMT
"The world only makes sense if you force it to." These are not the words of a hero with a "somber responsibility." They are the words of a megalomaniac hellbent on controlling everything and everyone around him. That's straight from Frank Miller who wrote an old grey Batman. Affleck was still too young for that.
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