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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 15:06:44 GMT
tpfkar  Must not work inside a quote. Have to think on it. In the realm of whatever trait, "praise" and "blame" could apply. Certainly I rate the intelligent higher for their smarts than I do the dull, and in the arena of looks the beautiful above the homely. I don't however regard butt-ugly nor even stupid as condemnable offenses all on their own. It is however likely that higher levels of stupidity correlate with baser characters. In any case, someone is objectively/subjectively smarter or beutifuller or both. Someone could also be "praised" more for perseverance - but that is yet again a different trait/category. But I do think someone good/empathetic at their core is "better" than urge-checking misanthropes. The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 15:24:09 GMT
In the realm of whatever trait, "praise" and "blame" could apply. Certainly I rate the intelligent higher for their smarts than I do the dull, and in the arena of looks the beautiful above the homely. I don't however regard butt-ugly nor even stupid as condemnable offenses all on their own. It is however likely that higher levels of stupidity correlate with baser characters. In any case, someone is objectively/subjectively smarter or beutifuller or both. Someone could also be "praised" more for perseverance - but that is yet again a different trait/category. To give my own view I would certainly like to live in a world of good, intelligent, beautiful people, but I wouldn't say I can justifiably blame someone for not being intelligent or beautiful (even if I would have preferred that they were so). So by the same token it seems I can't really blame people for being wicked even if I would prefer that they were good. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2017 15:31:41 GMT
In the realm of whatever trait, "praise" and "blame" could apply. Certainly I rate the intelligent higher for their smarts than I do the dull, and in the arena of looks the beautiful above the homely. I don't however regard butt-ugly nor even stupid as condemnable offenses all on their own. It is however likely that higher levels of stupidity correlate with baser characters. In any case, someone is objectively/subjectively smarter or beutifuller or both. Someone could also be "praised" more for perseverance - but that is yet again a different trait/category. To give my own view I would certainly like to live in a world of good, intelligent, beautiful people, but I wouldn't say I can justifiably blame someone for not being intelligent or beautiful (even if I would have preferred that they were so). So by the same token it seems I can't really blame people for being wicked even if I would prefer that they were good. I suppose the thing is that one cannot choose to be intelligent (at least in the latent sense) or 'beautiful' but one can choose to be 'good', and blame can only be apportioned to those able to determine things for themselves. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2017 15:39:51 GMT
Here's an interesting passage in Matthew:
So when Jesus says he could call on the Father to send angels to save him, does that mean he literally could have done so and events would have played out differently (and Scripture not be fulfilled)? Or is he merely saying he theoretically has the power to do so but he could not actually do it as that is not how the future is set out?
There are two things that immediately strike one about these verses: first, that Jesus knows that the fate of 'those who draw the sword' is assured; second that he doesn't know if Scriptures can always be fulfilled - unless his question is really just rhetorical or ironical, which seems unlikely.
So we have Jesus both knowing something for sure and, within a line or two, being uncertain about another. But if JC is God, as some would assert, would He not know everything for certain? And why is He asking others if He would be best placed to know?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 15:46:19 GMT
By "wrong" I meant more that he expects someone to do something and they instead end up doing something else. Do you think that's possible? Or are God's predictions always accurate? Got it.
I think people disappoint God all the time because he doesn't concern himself with knowing what people do ahead of time unless it affects his purpose.
Most instances of God foreknowing something is tied into his plans for mankind as a whole.
For which every action by mankind is part of, can't have it both ways. Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
Psalm 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 15:51:51 GMT
tpfkar Lumping "wicked" in the same box as ugly or dumb is what I want to almost assuredly improperly call a category error. You may not "blame" that scorpion for wanting to sting you in the butt, and he might be perfectly fine and handsome and wickedly smart there in your scorpion farm, but if they were coming out of your cupboards you'd still call an exterminator. Probably not if you found a new kitten on your pillow every morning. From a distance, you can say kittens and scorpions aren't to 'blame" for what they are, but they are what they are with varying levels of "good" and "bad" just the same. I did once find a toad in my cup of milk. The Lost One
I gotta be me |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 15:59:52 GMT
To give my own view I would certainly like to live in a world of good, intelligent, beautiful people, but I wouldn't say I can justifiably blame someone for not being intelligent or beautiful (even if I would have preferred that they were so). So by the same token it seems I can't really blame people for being wicked even if I would prefer that they were good. I suppose the thing is that one cannot choose to be intelligent (at least in the latent sense) or 'beautiful' but one can choose to be 'good', and blame can only be apportioned to those able to determine things for themselves. But wouldn't you have to be at least somewhat good to choose to be more good? |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 16:04:24 GMT
There are two things that immediately strike one about these verses: first, that Jesus knows that the fate of 'those who draw the sword' is assured; second that he doesn't know if Scriptures can always be fulfilled - unless his question is really just rhetorical or ironical, which seems unlikely. So we have Jesus both knowing something for sure and, within a line or two, being uncertain about another. But if JC is God, as some would assert, would He not know everything for certain? And why is He asking others if He would be best placed to know? Fair point - maybe that would signify he was just being rhetorical then. |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 16:13:00 GMT
tpfkar Lumping "wicked" in the same box as ugly or dumb is what I want to almost assuredly improperly call a category error. You may not "blame" that scorpion for wanting to sting you in the butt, and he might be perfectly fine and handsome and wickedly smart there in your scorpion farm, but if they were coming out of your cupboards you'd still call an exterminator. Probably not if you found a new kitten on your pillow every morning. From a distance, you can say kittens and scorpions aren't to 'blame" for what they are, but they are what they are with varying levels of "good" and "bad" just the same. I did once find a toad in my cup of milk. The Lost One
I gotta be meBut that is why I would lump them in together. We may not want to be around stinging scorpions but we don't blame them for stinging. Similarly we would prefer to be around kind people than unkind, the intelligent rather than the stupid, and the beautiful rather than the ugly but it seems no-one merits blame for being what they are anymore than the scorpion does. That doesn't mean you don't exterminate the scorpion or lock the serial killer away, it just means you can't really blame them. You may refuse the offer of a date from the ugly person but you don't blame them for not being attractive to you. You may refuse to chat politics with the stupid person, but you don't blame them for not understanding concepts. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 16:49:13 GMT
tpfkar "Blame" seems to be a meaningless word in this concept. Some people are ugly, we can judge them so, but we don't "blame" them unless they did it to themselves like some plastic surgery addict. Similarly we don't "blame" people for being dumb, although we often blame them for the often accompanying obstinacy and unwarranted arrogance. But we do "blame" people for their malice. It's a very tortured use of the word across all of these concepts. As for the scorpion, I can and do "blame" it on a sliding scale - it is it's nature. It wants to inflict damage. Even blaming HIV and malaria is a better use of the word than blame for uninflicted unintelligence and unattractiveness. I also judge the scorpion as lesser than harmless animals. Similarly the good natured at heart above the controlled figuratively venomous. They're just "better".  The Lost One
feel good |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 16:55:16 GMT
tpfkar "Blame" seems to be a meaningless word in this concept. Some people are ugly, we can judge them so, but we don't "blame" them unless they did it to themselves like some plastic surgery addict. Similarly we don't "blame" people for being dumb, although we often blame them for the often accompanying obstinacy and unwarranted arrogance. But we do "blame" people for their malice. It's a very tortured use of the word across all of these concepts. As for the scorpion, I can and do "blame" it on a sliding scale - it is it's nature. It wants to inflict damage. Even blaming HIV and malaria is a better use of the word than blame for uninflicted unintelligence and unattractiveness. I also judge the scorpion as lesser than harmless animals. Similarly the good natured at heart above the controlled figuratively venomous. They're just "better". The Lost One
feel goodFair enough. I suppose such an outlook on goodness is like a connoisseur giving her verdict on a wine. Appraisal rather than judgement perhaps. I can't say I have any issue with that. How do you feel about punishment? Do you think bad people deserve punishment (for reasons other than discouraging bad behaviour)? |
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 17:24:06 GMT
tpfkar Maybe of a vintner who produces a salutary dinner variety instead of a box wine spiked with battery acid simply because it will in the end make him more money. "Blame" just gets very mushy very rapidly when applied widely. As for punishment, I think people in general merit whatever the ramifications of their actions are. If a person can be shown to not understand his actions we can apply extenuations or explanations. But those don't typically annihilate blame unless the person is deemed near incapacitated, rather just mitigate our response. The Lost One
and she must take my knife |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 17:31:28 GMT
tpfkar Maybe of a vintner who produces a salutary dinner variety instead of a box wine spiked with battery acid simply because it will in the end make him more money. "Blame" just gets very mushy very rapidly when applied widely. As for punishment, I think people in general merit whatever the ramifications of their actions are. If a person can be shown to not understand his actions we can apply extenuations or explanations. But those don't typically annihilate blame unless the person is deemed near incapacitated, rather just mitigate our response. The Lost One
and she must take my knifeHmm I don't think I can agree there. I mean on an emotive level it's hard to forgive a murderer but on a logical level there are reasons why that person was disposed towards murder - perhaps they're more angry than most or they lack empathy. They can't help that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 17:33:50 GMT
You have the free will to love Jesus or burn in hell.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 17:47:49 GMT
tpfkar That's where to me it loses all meaning. Everything is because of reasons. They are what they are, with all of their traits and lacks. What they "can't help" doesn't make them any better or any worse, or really say anything at all. The Lost One
In the end, I decide how much my love can bend |
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2017 18:00:55 GMT
tpfkar That's where to me it loses all meaning. Everything is because of reasons. They are what they are, with all of their traits and lacks. What they "can't help" doesn't make them any better or any worse, or really say anything at all.
In the end, I decide how much my love can bendIt just seems to me that for people to deserve punishment implies they could have been other than what they are which you seem to deny. Like if I used some mechanical device to control a man into killing his wife, no-one would think the man deserves punishment. But if the man suffers from rage and kills his wife in a fit of anger, does he deserve punishment? I find it hard to see a difference in those two scenarios. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 29, 2017 18:10:46 GMT
tpfkar I don't think it implies that at all. They are what they are however they got there. In your first example the man isn't doing the deed, the controller is. The rage episode is from the man himself. The Lost One
Don’t ask me why it’s so hollow |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 29, 2017 19:05:12 GMT
Got it.
I think people disappoint God all the time because he doesn't concern himself with knowing what people do ahead of time unless it affects his purpose.
Most instances of God foreknowing something is tied into his plans for mankind as a whole.
For which every action by mankind is part of, can't have it both ways. Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 5:12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.
Psalm 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.
Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.
You keep bringing these up as if I haven't been able to refute them
They have nothing to do with what I stated and merely verify them.
Until you can figure out why I can say that with confidence, I guess you'll keep posting the same verses.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 19:09:27 GMT
You keep bringing these up as if I haven't been able to refute them
You haven't refuted anything.It's the same as the OP... if Jesus can't change prophecy, he can't change prophecy/gods plan.No free will for you... nor apparently Jesus either. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 19:33:21 GMT
tpfkar I don't think it implies that at all. They are what they are however they got there. In your first example the man isn't doing the deed, the controller is. The rage episode is from the man himself. The Lost One
Don’t ask me why it’s so hollowYes, but in the 'rage episode' the man's actions are still being precipitated by factors to which the man did not choose to submit. Whatever caused his predisposition towards violence and his lack of impulse control. So let's say that the murderer had a brain tumour which predisposed him to acts of violence - we would probably consider the condition to be an extenuating circumstance. But, as Sam Harris says, it's "brain tumours all the way down", and a murderer without the brain tumour no more chose whatever traits and dispositions led him to his bloody act than the one with the brain tumour. In both cases, the bloody act was precipitated by factors that could have been altered or controlled by the perpetrator. |
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