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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 13, 2017 11:17:29 GMT
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Post by clusium on Jul 13, 2017 12:16:54 GMT
This story should come as no surprise to nobody. In Pakistan, people who belong to the wrong Muslim sect, such as Shias, or Ahmadis for example, are severely persecuted, for example, never mind, people who are not Muslim at all, such as Christians, & atheists, etc.
What is somewhat surprising, is that they are actually able to create any online group or website for atheism at all, as where you are posting from, can be traced, just as you would with the phone, from where you are posting from.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 13, 2017 12:17:00 GMT
No matter how religious a society may be there are always going to be members who disagree with the establishment. Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe. The case of Pakistan is very sad. Their culture was same as that of India but once they became an Islamic country (and in fact before that) they started identifying themselves with Arab culture. That led to identity crisis for the nation itself. At this point of time, it is very difficult for Pakistanis who don't identify with Islam to feel secure about their beliefs and so they have to stay in hiding.
Just a few days before, I heard an Australian of Pakistani Muslim origin denounce religion as man made concept. he might not have done that openly in Pakistan.
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Post by clusium on Jul 13, 2017 13:46:01 GMT
No matter how religious a society may be there are always going to be members who disagree with the establishment. Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe. The case of Pakistan is very sad. Their culture was same as that of India but once they became an Islamic country (and in fact before that) they started identifying themselves with Arab culture. That led to identity crisis for the nation itself. At this point of time, it is very difficult for Pakistanis who don't identify with Islam to feel secure about their beliefs and so they have to stay in hiding. Just a few days before, I heard an Australian of Pakistani Muslim origin denounce religion as man made concept. he might not have done that openly in Pakistan. Yes the Partition of India into 2 different nations, caused a lot of problems. Pakistan itself, even had to be divided even further into 2 different countries (Pakistan & Bangladesh). The UN was even going to break Punjab away from India, into its own nation, & be an officially Sikh country. |
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Post by clusium on Jul 13, 2017 13:47:34 GMT
Filmflaneur, I clicked on the link & it was a dud. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 13, 2017 13:56:14 GMT
Filmflaneur, I clicked on the link & it was a dud. New link now, thanks. |
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Post by phludowin on Jul 13, 2017 14:21:56 GMT
Sad.
But just like in other countries with blasphemy laws, blasphemy is used as a pretense to censor anti-government speech (or in this case: anti army speech).
In my opinion the best way to let these countries go down is to let their citizens escape, by letting them emigrate to other countries. But as can be seen on this forum: Suggestions like these make some people whine.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 13, 2017 15:20:25 GMT
It would suck if I had to move just because of my beliefs.
People often times have no desire to leave the culture they are familiar with for one they aren't.
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Post by clusium on Jul 13, 2017 18:26:43 GMT
Filmflaneur, I clicked on the link & it was a dud. New link now, thanks. Your welcome.  |
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Post by Edward-Elizabeth-Hitler on Jul 13, 2017 18:33:07 GMT
Without reading the rest of the thread, I hope I'm in before ErJen says that maybe the atheists bring it on themselves. |
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Post by gadreel on Jul 13, 2017 18:43:37 GMT
No matter how religious a society may be there are always going to be members who disagree with the establishment. Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe. The case of Pakistan is very sad. Their culture was same as that of India but once they became an Islamic country (and in fact before that) they started identifying themselves with Arab culture. That led to identity crisis for the nation itself. At this point of time, it is very difficult for Pakistanis who don't identify with Islam to feel secure about their beliefs and so they have to stay in hiding. Just a few days before, I heard an Australian of Pakistani Muslim origin denounce religion as man made concept. he might not have done that openly in Pakistan. I agree with your posts, but I wonder about this: "Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe." I don't think that is true, I think there are going to be less atheists in a fundamental society. It's not like lefthandedness or homosexuality, you are not born atheist or theist (I think you are born agnostic and undecided), you come to one or the other through what you are exposed to. It follows that a fundamentally religious society is less likely to produce atheists. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 13, 2017 20:57:19 GMT
No matter how religious a society may be there are always going to be members who disagree with the establishment. Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe. The case of Pakistan is very sad. Their culture was same as that of India but once they became an Islamic country (and in fact before that) they started identifying themselves with Arab culture. That led to identity crisis for the nation itself. At this point of time, it is very difficult for Pakistanis who don't identify with Islam to feel secure about their beliefs and so they have to stay in hiding. Just a few days before, I heard an Australian of Pakistani Muslim origin denounce religion as man made concept. he might not have done that openly in Pakistan. I agree with your posts, but I wonder about this: "Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe." I don't think that is true, I think there are going to be less atheists in a fundamental society. It's not like lefthandedness or homosexuality, you are not born atheist or theist (I think you are born agnostic and undecided), you come to one or the other through what you are exposed to. It follows that a fundamentally religious society is less likely to produce atheists. I agree with yours as well but I was only talking about presence of atheists in different suppressive countries across the globe. Like Bahrain, Pakistan, Saudi etc etc. No matter what they say, they have got a certain number of atheists. We hear less about them but atheists exist in those societies. Yes, some countries that became suppressive in near past (Like Iran) may have more atheists but most of these suppressive countries have been like that for a long time. |
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Post by gadreel on Jul 13, 2017 21:09:26 GMT
I agree with your posts, but I wonder about this: "Existence of atheists in suppressive regimes follows normal distribution across the globe." I don't think that is true, I think there are going to be less atheists in a fundamental society. It's not like lefthandedness or homosexuality, you are not born atheist or theist (I think you are born agnostic and undecided), you come to one or the other through what you are exposed to. It follows that a fundamentally religious society is less likely to produce atheists. I agree with yours as well but I was only talking about presence of atheists in different suppressive countries across the globe. Like Bahrain, Pakistan, Saudi etc etc. No matter what they say, they have got a certain number of atheists. We hear less about them but atheists exist in those societies. Yes, some countries that became suppressive in near past (Like Iran) may have more atheists but most of these suppressive countries have been like that for a long time. Apologies, I had not associated the statement with just suppressive countries, yes of course there will be atheists everywhere. I must say I appreciate the states being founded on no binding religion, it allows a bit more freedom. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 13, 2017 21:17:41 GMT
I agree with yours as well but I was only talking about presence of atheists in different suppressive countries across the globe. Like Bahrain, Pakistan, Saudi etc etc. No matter what they say, they have got a certain number of atheists. We hear less about them but atheists exist in those societies. Yes, some countries that became suppressive in near past (Like Iran) may have more atheists but most of these suppressive countries have been like that for a long time. Apologies, I had not associated the statement with just suppressive countries, yes of course there will be atheists everywhere. I must say I appreciate the states being founded on no binding religion, it allows a bit more freedom. True. Case in point will be Turkey and Azarbaijan. Both have majority Muslim population but do not force people to follow religion. Though Turkey may be undergoing a change in future because of certain reasons. Once a country does become religious by constitution then it becomes very difficult to do anything about it. Even democracy can't do much in a country like Pakistan if people are scared or there are enough extremist people who won't let non-extremists voice their opinions. So it's really a pity that there is not much non-religious people can do in such countries. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 18, 2017 10:44:25 GMT
It is an interesting point, whether atheistic beliefs in a population remain stable as a percentage over time, even if they are hidden or repressed for external reasons such as the pressures of a theocratic society. I wonder what the sociologists would say?
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 18, 2017 12:19:05 GMT
It is an interesting point, whether atheistic beliefs in a population remain stable as a percentage over time, even if they are hidden or repressed for external reasons such as the pressures of a theocratic society. I wonder what the sociologists would say? I don't know what experts would say but I very strongly believe that there is certain percentage of atheists in any culture and has always been at any point of time in at least last 2500 years of mankind's history. It's not just that there are hidden atheists only in extremely fundamentalist societies. There are hidden atheists even in religious societies that are not too intolerant on the face of it. The higher the level of fundamentalism and intolerance in a society the less the people who would openly proclaim themselves. have you heard of Carvaka school of ancient India? This is what they had to say: This is a school that flourished around 400 BCE. |
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