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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 1:50:23 GMT
It was a rhetorical question (that I now see when straight over your head). I'm not American.......... No kidding captain obvious!
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 2:06:29 GMT
I'm not American.......... No kidding captain obvious! So you've referenced three places in America regarding the US election and you think that somehow think this rhetorical question is some kind f valid point about meritocracy in The West in general?
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 2:10:53 GMT
No kidding captain obvious! So you've referenced three places in America regarding the US election and you think that somehow think this rhetorical question is some kind f valid point about meritocracy in The West in general? I think you should go back and actually read my post again (the whole thing) instead of "skimming" it. Then put what I said in context with respect to what had previously been said. Once you do that, you should be able to figure out why your question is ridiculous!
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 22, 2017 8:36:30 GMT
I think faith alone makes the most sense.
So if I have 100% faith, but I eat babies and rape women I get to go to heaven? seems a little poorly thought out to me. I think some see faith not so much as simply having a certain belief but having a certain way of life driven by that belief. This is probably perilously close to No True Scotsman territory but I think the idea is if you are really faithful, you will find such acts abhorrent.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 22, 2017 12:55:45 GMT
Which of course means I did not vote as I believe it is deeds alone, a just god wold not condemn you to hell if your life was perfect except that you did not believe. I think the Eastern Orthodox stance is interesting - the Holy Spirit gives everyone the compulsion to do good so any good deed is actually an act of faith even if we don't realise it. There is also a small group of believers who believe in the concept of "once saved, saved forever". This is like Jōdo Shinshū school of Buddhism. The believers of "once saved, saved forever" philosophy believe that if you ever believed in Christ even for 1 second then you are saved forever no matter what you do in life afterwards. A member here formerly called Mithrandir-Olórin believed in this concept. I think followers of this belief have no affiliation with any of the established big sects of Christianity.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 13:04:46 GMT
So you've referenced three places in America regarding the US election and you think that somehow think this rhetorical question is some kind f valid point about meritocracy in The West in general? I think you should go back and actually read my post again (the whole thing) instead of "skimming" it. Then put what I said in context with respect to what had previously been said. Once you do that, you should be able to figure out why your question is ridiculous! Maybe you should figure out that America isn't The World....
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
I think you should go back and actually read my post again (the whole thing) instead of "skimming" it. Then put what I said in context with respect to what had previously been said. Once you do that, you should be able to figure out why your question is ridiculous! Maybe you should figure out that America isn't The World.... Maybe you should figure out that your statement is a straw man argument, as I never suggested that it was.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 16:01:54 GMT
Maybe you should figure out that America isn't The World.... Maybe you should figure out that your statement is a straw man argument, as I never suggested that it was. Maybe you should figure out what a strawman actually is, because I didn't make that suggestion. Maybe I got it from the KKK.........
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 16:09:58 GMT
Maybe you should figure out that your statement is a straw man argument, as I never suggested that it was. Maybe you should figure out what a strawman actually is, because I didn't make that suggestion. Maybe I got it from the KKK......... Your statement implies that I was making an argument that America is "the world", which is a misrepresentation of my actual argument. So yes, that was a straw man argument, one that stems from your inability to decipher what I was actually saying.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 17:00:59 GMT
Maybe you should figure out what a strawman actually is, because I didn't make that suggestion. Maybe I got it from the KKK......... Your statement implies that I was making an argument that America is "the world", which is a misrepresentation of my actual argument. So yes, that was a straw man argument, one that stems from your inability to decipher what I was actually saying. No, it actually didn't. Maybe you should re read what I said.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 17:28:28 GMT
Your statement implies that I was making an argument that America is "the world", which is a misrepresentation of my actual argument. So yes, that was a straw man argument, one that stems from your inability to decipher what I was actually saying. No, it actually didn't. Maybe you should re read what I said. Not necessary. IF you believe that you actually understand the point I was making, you'd have made a reasonable follow up (or counterpoint) that addressed my point. Since you haven't, I can rest my case here. At the end of the day, my statement is demonstrably accurate. In "the west" (whatever you deem that to be) power, charisma, and money are how leaders come to power because that is what is respected. The idea that "merit" has ever determined who becomes a leader in the west, much less that any western system is based on it is preposterous, and in numerous ways proven to be false!
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 17:54:30 GMT
No, it actually didn't. Maybe you should re read what I said. Not necessary. IF you believe that you actually understand the point I was making, you'd have made a reasonable follow up (or counterpoint) that addressed my point. Since you haven't, I can rest my case here. At the end of the day, my statement is demonstrably accurate. In "the west" (whatever you deem that to be) power, charisma, and money are how leaders come to power because that is what is respected. The idea that "merit" has ever determined who becomes a leader in the west, much less that any western system is based on it is preposterous, and in numerous ways proven to be false! Ok. The West is simply governed by popularity. Science, industry, commerce do not use merit as a basis for advancement or reward. That is totally proven right because Trump won a popularity contest.
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Post by johnblutarsky on Jul 22, 2017 20:39:14 GMT
There is also a small group of believers who believe in the concept of "once saved, saved forever". ... That is excellent news, because I just saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to Geico.
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Post by gadreel on Jul 24, 2017 18:20:21 GMT
So if I have 100% faith, but I eat babies and rape women I get to go to heaven? seems a little poorly thought out to me. I think some see faith not so much as simply having a certain belief but having a certain way of life driven by that belief. This is probably perilously close to No True Scotsman territory but I think the idea is if you are really faithful, you will find such acts abhorrent. Some certainly think that, but an examination of people who claim to have faith indicates that faith does not guarantee good deeds. In any case if what you suggest is true then the net effect is a combination of good deeds and faith, not faith alone.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 24, 2017 19:15:33 GMT
I think the Eastern Orthodox stance is interesting - the Holy Spirit gives everyone the compulsion to do good so any good deed is actually an act of faith even if we don't realise it. There is also a small group of believers who believe in the concept of "once saved, saved forever". This is like Jōdo Shinshū school of Buddhism. The believers of "once saved, saved forever" philosophy believe that if you ever believed in Christ even for 1 second then you are saved forever no matter what you do in life afterwards. A member here formerly called Mithrandir-Olórin believed in this concept. I think followers of this belief have no affiliation with any of the established big sects of Christianity. Actually, AJ, I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and have heard that phrase repeatedly, and it is probably the only thing that comforts my mother since she knows I am no longer a Christian. I have spared her the knowledge that I am an agnostic atheist. As my father was in a dying process, one of his friends told me, "Your father told me that he was afraid to die, because you are still unsaved." Technically, I was 'saved' as a youth, but later left the church. So I went into my dad's ICU, held his hand and said, "I've had a little talk with Jesus, Dad (blatant lie) and wherever you are going, that is where I am going, too (true statement - six foot under). I hope he took it as my conversion back to Christianity and died peacefully, which was my intent. Actually, my ashes will be scattered on the same mountaintop of the Colorado Rockies where my husband's ashes are scattered. Back to dust.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,695
Likes: 1,331
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 24, 2017 21:10:48 GMT
Some certainly think that, but an examination of people who claim to have faith indicates that faith does not guarantee good deeds. Ah but the counter would be that those people aren't "truly" faithful. Sort of. I think the idea is salvation is due solely to faith but a side effect of faith will be a desire to do good deeds. But it is the faith itself that saves you. Though as you say the net effect would probably be the same.
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Post by gadreel on Jul 24, 2017 21:18:53 GMT
Some certainly think that, but an examination of people who claim to have faith indicates that faith does not guarantee good deeds. Ah but the counter would be that those people aren't "truly" faithful. Sort of. I think the idea is salvation is due solely to faith but a side effect of faith will be a desire to do good deeds. But it is the faith itself that saves you. Though as you say the net effect would probably be the same. And no doubt won't even eat Haggis It's a strange one, at the end of the day I suppose if faith drives you to good deeds then I support it, I suppose my issue is the other way around when people think of a God who will punish those that never heard of him.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 24, 2017 22:32:46 GMT
There is also a small group of believers who believe in the concept of "once saved, saved forever". This is like Jōdo Shinshū school of Buddhism. The believers of "once saved, saved forever" philosophy believe that if you ever believed in Christ even for 1 second then you are saved forever no matter what you do in life afterwards. A member here formerly called Mithrandir-Olórin believed in this concept. I think followers of this belief have no affiliation with any of the established big sects of Christianity. Actually, AJ, I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and have heard that phrase repeatedly, and it is probably the only thing that comforts my mother since she knows I am no longer a Christian. I have spared her the knowledge that I am an agnostic atheist. As my father was in a dying process, one of his friends told me, "Your father told me that he was afraid to die, because you are still unsaved." Technically, I was 'saved' as a youth, but later left the church. So I went into my dad's ICU, held his hand and said, "I've had a little talk with Jesus, Dad (blatant lie) and wherever you are going, that is where I am going, too (true statement - six foot under). I hope he took it as my conversion back to Christianity and died peacefully, which was my intent. Actually, my ashes will be scattered on the same mountaintop of the Colorado Rockies where my husband's ashes are scattered. Back to dust. Thanks for sharing that Rachel. Not really a bad lie if you said it for comforting your dying father.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 24, 2017 22:40:02 GMT
Actually, AJ, I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and have heard that phrase repeatedly, and it is probably the only thing that comforts my mother since she knows I am no longer a Christian. I have spared her the knowledge that I am an agnostic atheist. As my father was in a dying process, one of his friends told me, "Your father told me that he was afraid to die, because you are still unsaved." Technically, I was 'saved' as a youth, but later left the church. So I went into my dad's ICU, held his hand and said, "I've had a little talk with Jesus, Dad (blatant lie) and wherever you are going, that is where I am going, too (true statement - six foot under). I hope he took it as my conversion back to Christianity and died peacefully, which was my intent. Actually, my ashes will be scattered on the same mountaintop of the Colorado Rockies where my husband's ashes are scattered. Back to dust. Thanks for sharing that Rachel. Not really a bad lie if you said it for comforting your dying father. That was my intent. And two days later, when he passed peacefully, I was still there, holding his hand. I loved him very much.
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