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Post by geode on Jul 26, 2017 14:16:54 GMT
In my experience in a different sect, methods such as disfellowshipping and excommunication do not lead to the claimed intent of having people confront sin and repent, it leads to them leaving the church.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 14:33:09 GMT
In my experience in a different sect, methods such as disfellowshipping and excommunication do not lead to the claimed intent of having people confront sin and repent, it leads to them leaving the church. That's not really the purpose of it.
The hope is that they return but the intent is to not corrupt the church/congregation.
It is not an unusual or unique concept except for in organization that have been compromised or corrupted.
The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place.
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Post by geode on Jul 26, 2017 14:37:32 GMT
In my experience in a different sect, methods such as disfellowshipping and excommunication do not lead to the claimed intent of having people confront sin and repent, it leads to them leaving the church. That's not really the purpose of it.
The hope is that they return but the intent is to not corrupt the church/congregation.
It is not an unusual or unique concept except for in organization that have been compromised or corrupted.
The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place.
Yes, that is the stated purpose of it in the sect I was talking about, which is not the JW's but the Mormons.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 15:21:18 GMT
That's not really the purpose of it.
The hope is that they return but the intent is to not corrupt the church/congregation.
It is not an unusual or unique concept except for in organization that have been compromised or corrupted.
The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place.
Yes, that is the stated purpose of it in the sect I was talking about, which is not the JW's but the Mormons. Got it.
Actually, I was kinda wrong regarding the purpose in JW's. It's 3-fold.
wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014250#h=26:259-26:582
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 26, 2017 17:12:06 GMT
Then what makes it wrong? What makes anything "wrong," as opposed to "right?" A number of things. It could be common sense; law; custom; love; conscience. But probably not what an assumed supernatural character, known for its purported acts of violence, jealousy and self-justification, with its mythical roots in an ancient culture, may be presented as preferring through inspiration. But then again, you pays your money and takes your choice. Then right and wrong are completely subjective to someone like you, yes?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2017 17:48:42 GMT
In my experience in a different sect, methods such as disfellowshipping and excommunication do not lead to the claimed intent of having people confront sin and repent, it leads to them leaving the church. That's not really the purpose of it.
The hope is that they return but the intent is to not corrupt the church/congregation.
It is not an unusual or unique concept except for in organization that have been compromised or corrupted.
The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place.
"The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place."
That's hardly a "simple" solution since many JWs are brainwashed and pressured as young children/teens from family and JW friends into joining the cult.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 18:43:03 GMT
That's not really the purpose of it.
The hope is that they return but the intent is to not corrupt the church/congregation.
It is not an unusual or unique concept except for in organization that have been compromised or corrupted.
The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place.
"The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place."
That's hardly a "simple" solution since many JWs are brainwashed and pressured as young children/teens from family and JW friends into joining the cult.
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2017 19:06:36 GMT
"The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place."
That's hardly a "simple" solution since many JWs are brainwashed and pressured as young children/teens from family and JW friends into joining the cult.
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
You are in no position to be accusing anyone of not being 'logical and rational", you're defending family breakups over a religious cult. It's easy to give them "the boot" or forsake because the brainwashing eventualy wears off when too much outside influence seeps in. There's a reason JWs tend to be against mingling with other churches, certain literature, art and films, and post high school education. They don't want to lose the stanglehold they have on their members
"You don't just walk into a congregation"
Many of them don't, what part of "childhood indoctrination" did you not understand? I find it very disturbing that you're actually defending this sort of thing, any other religion/beleif I doubt you would be jumping through this absurd level of apologetics for.
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Post by general313 on Jul 26, 2017 19:13:42 GMT
"The simplest solution for the individual to avoid it is to simply never agree to the terms of membership in the first place."
That's hardly a "simple" solution since many JWs are brainwashed and pressured as young children/teens from family and JW friends into joining the cult.
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
Children are more vulnerable to brain washing than older people. That's why we have a voting age, drinking age, and age of consent. It's quite common for people to grow up in a faith then move away from it in adulthood. It happened to me. Fortunately for me my family didn't disown me when that happened.
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 26, 2017 19:50:27 GMT
If you don't believe exactly what they do, you're "rejecting your family"? That's a pretty awful stance to hold. I voted to remain in the EU while my parents and sister voted for leaving it, guess it would be my own fault if they stopped having anything to do with me. You're twisting it and everyone who whines about JW's does the same thing. It's not a chicken or egg issue. At the most basic of arguments they are rejecting their family first and then confused when their family doesn't accept that rejection. They're all the same. They all boil down to the "wronged" person willfully choosing to do things that are contrary to what they promised to do which would already include disassociation with their family. (This is not the case with minors or in more important matters like life and death decisions...). Disfellowshipping is a great thing for the sinner because it allows them to actually be free and do the things that are now more important to them as opposed to what was more important to them when they willingly decided to get baptized. If family was the most important thing, then they should have never gotten baptized in the first place since they would still be talking to their family everyday. They didn't have a gun held to their head (Few JW's own guns although I met one who had a rifle for hunting his own food...) and there are tons of divided families among JW's because getting baptized is both a big step and also a difficult one to qualify for and is in no way mandatory even if it would be obviously encourage. Here's the entire argument in a nutshell... Whiny ex-JW: I don't want to be a JW anymore but I think they should break their rules for me because I need JW's. And of course, people who hate JW's or any religion for that matter latch onto that like a barnacle despite it making no sense. "That's a real nice family you got there. It'd be a real shame if you were to lose it."
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 21:26:11 GMT
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
Children are more vulnerable to brain washing than older people. That's why we have a voting age, drinking age, and age of consent. It's quite common for people to grow up in a faith then move away from it in adulthood. It happened to me. Fortunately for me my family didn't disown me when that happened. That doesn't matter in relation why they would want to get rid of people they had to trick into becoming JW's in the first place.
You are correct that it is not unusual at all for people to leave the religion of their family. Again, that has nothing to do with JW's accepting the waywardness of people who decided they didn't want to live up to their dedication. Maybe the kids can brainwash the parents into leaving their faith to put faith in their children and they will live happily ever after...
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 26, 2017 21:59:18 GMT
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
You are in no position to be accusing anyone of not being 'logical and rational", you're defending family breakups over a religious cult. It's easy to give them "the boot" or forsake because the brainwashing eventualy wears off when too much outside influence seeps in. There's a reason JWs tend to be against mingling with other churches, certain literature, art and films, and post high school education. They don't want to lose the stanglehold they have on their members
"You don't just walk into a congregation"
Many of them don't, what part of "childhood indoctrination" did you not understand? I find it very disturbing that you're actually defending this sort of thing, any other religion/beleif I doubt you would be jumping through this absurd level of apologetics for.
Don't take it personally.
just explain why your argument makes sense in the first place and I won't have to respond the way I do.
Parents taking their kids to where they worship is may or may not be indoctrination (Who cares), but it's also the right thing to do and a sign of them being responsible parents. Don't get bent out of shape just because you don't feel your kids would be worth the same hopes/dreams/goals you have.
Again this is a sign of irrational thinking.
I think family breakups are horrible which is why it's so sad that a grown child, & we are only talking about adults here really, would break up with their family on the basis of something that is likely not worth it (Probably sex. It's always sex).
That has nothing to do with what should be expected regarding guidelines.
You people are literally arguing for a religion to change their mind on the basis of the selfish acts of a person not wanting anything to do with them.
On top of that, you expect the parents to drop what their doing to be with the kid when they are never given a reason to lose their faith just because their kid did.
What part of that is rational exactly?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2017 22:18:29 GMT
You are in no position to be accusing anyone of not being 'logical and rational", you're defending family breakups over a religious cult. It's easy to give them "the boot" or forsake because the brainwashing eventualy wears off when too much outside influence seeps in. There's a reason JWs tend to be against mingling with other churches, certain literature, art and films, and post high school education. They don't want to lose the stanglehold they have on their members
"You don't just walk into a congregation"
Many of them don't, what part of "childhood indoctrination" did you not understand? I find it very disturbing that you're actually defending this sort of thing, any other religion/beleif I doubt you would be jumping through this absurd level of apologetics for.
Don't take it personally.
just explain why your argument makes sense in the first place and I won't have to respond the way I do.
Parents taking their kids to where they worship is may or may not be indoctrination (Who cares), but it's also the right thing to do and a sign of them being responsible parents. Don't get bent out of shape just because you don't feel your kids would be worth the same hopes/dreams/goals you have.
Again this is a sign of irrational thinking.
I think family breakups are horrible which is why it's so sad that a grown child, & we are only talking about adults here really, would break up with their family on the basis of something that is likely not worth it (Probably sex. It's always sex).
That has nothing to do with what should be expected regarding guidelines.
You people are literally arguing for a religion to change their mind on the basis of the selfish acts of a person not wanting anything to do with them.
On top of that, you expect the parents to drop what their doing to be with the kid when they are never given a reason to lose their faith just because their kid did.
What part of that is rational exactly?
"Don't take it personally."
Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't take personally, especially when you don't even really know me. I have a cousin who was raised JW and disavowed them. As a result he can no longer associate with his uncle and other relatives in the cult, so yes I do have a personal grudge against them.
"just explain why your argument makes sense in the first place and I won't have to respond the way I do." Already did, you responded with mental gymnastics and clumsy apologetics.
"Again this is a sign of irrational thinking." You're defending family break ups over a book of mythology, stop calling me the "irrational" one.
"I think family breakups are horrible" You've been defending it this whole time, you clearly don't think it's that horrible.
"we are only talking about adults here"
My cousin was still in high school when he was shunned by his congregation, so that's obviously not true.
"That has nothing to do with what should be expected regarding guidelines." Then they're terrible guidelines, that's what I've been arguing the whole time.
"You people are literally arguing for a religion to change their mind on the basis of the selfish acts of a person not wanting anything to do with them."
I'm not arguing to "change their mind", I'm arguing to drop their religious dogma altogether, or at the very least switch to a less severe form of Christianity. You have a very odd defihntion of "selfish", if a white supremacist renounces his views and no longer wants to associate with neo-nazis, that some how makes him selfish?
"On top of that, you expect the parents to drop what their doing to be with the kid when they are never given a reason to lose their faith just because their kid did."
If their church is making them abandon family, I expect them seriously reconsider their religious views, yes. I'm not expecting them to become full on atheists, but at least switch to another church (as many JWs often do because the congregation expects too much from them).
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 26, 2017 22:20:55 GMT
"Son, do you honestly expect us to walk away from the cult that made us abuse you throughout your entire childhood? Get away from us with that kind of talk! Get out of our house! We don't know you!"
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 27, 2017 7:14:24 GMT
I wish people would think this through logically & rationally.
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or pressured, then why would it be so easy to give them the boot?
If they are brainwashed, deluded, or forced to get baptized, then why is it so easy for them to forsake stuff?
You don't just walk into a congregation and ask to be baptized. It takes some bonafide effort and people who get the boot took that effort and simply changed their mind later and now they whine that the congregation &/or family didn't change with them which is a silly expectation under normal circumstances but even moreso if they are brainwashed.
Children are more vulnerable to brain washing than older people. That's why we have a voting age, drinking age, and age of consent. It's quite common for people to grow up in a faith then move away from it in adulthood. It happened to me. Fortunately for me my family didn't disown me when that happened. I'm not so sure about that. On the Internet I've seen some Obama Zombies who were quite advanced in age. Some of them looked to be in their sixties and seventies, and they were completely brainwashed by "progressive" propaganda.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 27, 2017 10:28:05 GMT
A number of things. It could be common sense; law; custom; love; conscience. But probably not what an assumed supernatural character, known for its purported acts of violence, jealousy and self-justification, with its mythical roots in an ancient culture, may be presented as preferring through inspiration. But then again, you pays your money and takes your choice. Then right and wrong are completely subjective to someone like you, yes? There is no objective morality in my opinion. Unless of course you wish to prove otherwise? You can start by proving the existence of the source of any morality which is not subjective.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 27, 2017 11:36:46 GMT
lowtacks86You're right, we don;t know each other, so feel free to take it personally or not. It doesn;t matter. Your family story is indicative of what I've said. The choice starts with the "kid" not the parent. If he was brainwashed by them, then he's weak minded and should be happy he has a strong brain now and doesn't have to be around the people who abused him with indoctrination his whole life until he wised up and split. Which is perfectly fine if that's what you want to focus your preaching on. However, the odds of accomplishing that are slim to none so it's silly to think that in the meantime you shold get bent out of shape for most of them not taking you up on the notion.. That's the irrational part that religion haters have often. For all I know you're the one who caused the disunity in their family in the first place. If you aren't then take your nephew under your wing and now you're his new family. The parents aren't abandoning grown children. That may not even be possible unless their grown kids are losers or can't take care of themselves The parents are right where they belong in relation to their faith...Stationary, predictable, & at least at one time perfectly happy. The one moving around and splitting the family dynamic, with full knowledge that is what they are doing no less, is the grown kid who miraculously needs them now despite disagreeing with their way of life. It's silly and not even an issue worth discussing for too long as a societal problem. Heck, we shun people all the time without regard to religion. Just think of this as putting someone on ignore. The whining in these articles is really attached to something else - Nostalgia. They actually remember the good old days when they knew their parents loved them & encouraged them, they had a great community to hang out with, and they are less than satisfied with their current situation. Finally, it is completely expected for Christians, not just JW's, to choose God and his standards over the wishy washy, warped, & imperfect views of they family. To focus on what the youngest members of a family wants at the expense of faith is an idiotic way to live life.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 27, 2017 11:57:07 GMT
One final knowledge drop regarding the article:
People do not get disfellowshipped for leaving an abusive relationship - JW's split up over more minor stuff than that and while it is frowned on and Scriptural divorce only happens with adultery, there is pretty clear instruction in their literature that it is OK to separate from a spouse who is physically abusive and that abusive spouse could be disfellowshipped for the abuse.
Since a lot of disfellowshipping are tied to sex, I imagine Susie just fell in love with someone else.
People do not get disfellowshipped for missing the Memorial which, while important in their faith, is entirely voluntary like the rest of their meetings. They even made a movie where the premise was someone was so focused on career that they were going to miss the Memorial and the notion of this being a shunning event never came up. How would that even work?
As with the other example, there is a more honest reason for the people being given the boot.
So what was the actual reason for disfellowshipping of the two examples? We won't know since JW's practice confidentiality & the "victim" will never tell the whole truth of the matter.
It doesn't matter since in both cases, it's clear the people don't want to be JW's anyway and the people who are outraged by the practice, as explained nicely by lowtacks, just wants the religion to go away in the first place regardless of the disfellowshipping practice.
The one is perfectly fine with never seeing her parents again, give or take a few pangs of nostalgia.However, she would be able to go to their funeral. They aren't banned from the Kingdom Halls or meetings, they just don't want to be in one.
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Post by general313 on Jul 27, 2017 14:46:03 GMT
Children are more vulnerable to brain washing than older people. That's why we have a voting age, drinking age, and age of consent. It's quite common for people to grow up in a faith then move away from it in adulthood. It happened to me. Fortunately for me my family didn't disown me when that happened. I'm not so sure about that. On the Internet I've seen some Obama Zombies who were quite advanced in age. Some of them looked to be in their sixties and seventies, and they were completely brainwashed by "progressive" propaganda. For your view to be correct (that a progressive view constitutes brainwashing) you have to suppose that the vast majority of the media, not only in the US but also the rest of the world is brainwashed, and only a handful of enlightened ones (all of course in the US) are not brainwashed. Sounds reasonable to me.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 27, 2017 17:33:37 GMT
I'm not so sure about that. On the Internet I've seen some Obama Zombies who were quite advanced in age. Some of them looked to be in their sixties and seventies, and they were completely brainwashed by "progressive" propaganda. For your view to be correct (that a progressive view constitutes brainwashing) you have to suppose that the vast majority of the media, not only in the US but also the rest of the world is brainwashed, and only a handful of enlightened ones (all of course in the US) are not brainwashed. Sounds reasonable to me. Yes, I do suppose that, except for the part about them all being in the US.
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