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Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 28, 2017 13:59:58 GMT
There seems to be one thing that I think a lot of us, and the writers included, seem to have over looked about the events of I Will Remember You.
Cordelia knows.
Near the beginning of "Hero," Doyle explains everything to Cordy after Angel had confessed to him what happened. Cordelia knows just how much Angel is willing to give up for the greater good.
It's a shame this was never brought up again between Cordy and Angel. It's just too important to have forgotten it. One of Angel's greatest sacrifices is never mentioned again.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Jul 29, 2017 1:33:28 GMT
I think one of the many things that made Angel a ‘hero’ was how he would put the fate of the world/others before himself and not go looking for pity afterwards. Sure, he'd sit alone in the dark and brood/feel sorry for himself at times, but he didn’t make a point of ever saying “I’ve given up SO MUCH for this world!” – and that’s part of what made him ‘heroic’ to me.
Yes, he gave up his own happiness with Buffy, sacrificing it for the ‘greater good’ and only Doyle/Cordelia knew of it. While I think it would’ve been interesting to hear Cordelia bring it up with Angel at some point, I think she knew it was probably one of those subjects which Angel would just not want to talk about. Of course, at times Cordy pushed him to talk about things he didn’t wish to discuss – but I think in this instance, she knew it was a sore subject for him and talking about it wouldn’t have necessarily made things any better (most likely the show just forgot to address it. Either that or Joss just never wanted it brought up again. He gave Angel & Buffy their moment of happiness/'perfect day' and then took it away - he seemed to like to do that with characters).
On a somewhat related note, I kind of respected ('liked' would be too strong a word) the way Angel's signing over his chance at being human in the series final was presented in the most mundane way - he signs a bit a paper and it's done.
I thought it showed just what a hero Angel was and how devoted he was to the mission, that he did it so his being undercover wasn't compromised. Angel took so much burden/guilt/etc onto himself, I really felt for the guy (not only all the bad stuff he'd done as Angelus, but also the 'day that never was' in 'I Will Remember You', the conclusion to his going through the three trials for Darla, giving up his son, the deaths of Cordy and Fred, then later Wesley and likely Gunn in the series final, and many more). It was a real gut-punch to see him lose his one real chance at happiness, and I think his following scene reflecting on what it would've been like was how he probably processed things oftentimes after making some big sacrifice.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 31, 2017 13:43:29 GMT
That's a good point about how Angel gave up his Shanshu.
At this point, he'd already sacrificed so much for the greater good through cosmic retcons that piece of paper was no big deal. I can only imagine how much it tore him up inside.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Sept 13, 2017 23:25:38 GMT
I think one of the many things that made Angel a ‘hero’ was how he would put the fate of the world/others before himself and not go looking for pity afterwards. Sure, he'd sit alone in the dark and brood/feel sorry for himself at times, but he didn’t make a point of ever saying “I’ve given up SO MUCH for this world!” – and that’s part of what made him ‘heroic’ to me. Yes, he gave up his own happiness with Buffy, sacrificing it for the ‘greater good’ and only Doyle/Cordelia knew of it. While I think it would’ve been interesting to hear Cordelia bring it up with Angel at some point, I think she knew it was probably one of those subjects which Angel would just not want to talk about. Of course, at times Cordy pushed him to talk about things he didn’t wish to discuss – but I think in this instance, she knew it was a sore subject for him and talking about it wouldn’t have necessarily made things any better (most likely the show just forgot to address it. Either that or Joss just never wanted it brought up again. He gave Angel & Buffy their moment of happiness/'perfect day' and then took it away - he seemed to like to do that with characters). On a somewhat related note, I kind of respected ('liked' would be too strong a word) the way Angel's signing over his chance at being human in the series final was presented in the most mundane way - he signs a bit a paper and it's done. I thought it showed just what a hero Angel was and how devoted he was to the mission, that he did it so his being undercover wasn't compromised. Angel took so much burden/guilt/etc onto himself, I really felt for the guy (not only all the bad stuff he'd done as Angelus, but also the 'day that never was' in 'I Will Remember You', the conclusion to his going through the three trials for Darla, giving up his son, the deaths of Cordy and Fred, then later Wesley and likely Gunn in the series final, and many more). It was a real gut-punch to see him lose his one real chance at happiness, and I think his following scene reflecting on what it would've been like was how he probably processed things oftentimes after making some big sacrifice.
Wow, what a great post, Chalice! I agree.
Good observation, Caleb. I wish Cordy had brought it up too at some point.
I get what you both are saying about the Shanshu, and I even agree to an extent, but to me it felt like they threw that in there to tie up the lose end of it, which I totally understand, and even appreciate given the circumstances of the ending of Angel the Series. But since it was made into such a big deal, even in season 5 itself, I always think of what the Shanshu prophecy might have been had they had time to conclude the series properly. Like I mentioned on another thread, the show should have gone back to the beginning to what season 1 start about helping the helpless after season 5, so I think a season 6 would have brought the show full circle.
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