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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 20:29:51 GMT
Now I've always been one to say - 'It takes two to tango'. I hate old saying that one wrestler carried another one in the ring - i.e. the old C.M. Punk vs. John Cena feuds, Hart Vs. Bulldog, Hogan Vs. Warrior - there's 2 guys in that ring and you both need to work together as a unit. What I'm talking about are 'feuds'. If one wrestler didn't have a particular counterpart to feud against - would he really be that relevant? Do you think a wrestler's opponent ever 'made' that wrestler and set him up for the remainder of his career? Now I'll draw a lot of heat for this - but I say Roddy Piper. Sure Piper was legendary in Portland, down South, etc. But who made him and put him over the top? Hogan. Was Piper that great a technician? Sure he was a fantastic mic worker - but does anybody agree his career was 'made' by his feud with Hogan? Call this thread riding off of somebody's coattails if you must. Anybody you can thing of that became a legend by riding coattails? Go!  |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 0:09:04 GMT
I think Piper was tremendously over long before he stepped foot in the wwf. But the wrestle mania, hogan and mr. T stuff put him over the moon. Piper's pit really took him to another level as well.
But that's a really interesting topic. I think The Von Erichs made Chris Adams. That's one that comes to mind. I believe Tommy Rich catapulted Buzz Sawyer's run big time. But I think that would've happened anyway with other guys. Rick Rude and Jerry Lawler maybe. Rude was not a very good worker at the time and he got him over. I"m sure there's other examples that I just can't think of right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 0:26:35 GMT
I think Piper was tremendously over long before he stepped foot in the wwf. But the wrestle mania, hogan and mr. T stuff put him over the moon. Piper's pit really took him to another level as well. But that's a really interesting topic. I think The Von Erichs made Chris Adams. That's one that comes to mind. I believe Tommy Rich catapulted Buzz Sawyer's run big time. But I think that would've happened anyway with other guys. Rick Rude and Jerry Lawler maybe. Rude was not a very good worker at the time and he got him over. I"m sure there's other examples that I just can't think of right now. Here's why I chose Piper. What did he ever really do after the Hogan 'Mania run? I get he was still 'hot' especially when they swerved him face the crowd was bigtime over for him. But don't you think he kind of peaked around that Hogan feud and there after with his run-ins with Orndorff, Adonis..... I just watched his '96 match with Hogan at Starcade and it was abysmal. Great wrestler. HOF'er. But without Hogan - would he ever be as famous as he got? After that feud - he just got 'awkward' in my eyes. Just rambling incoherent promos/interviews (trying to be comedic) that came off 'off' and left you scratching your head. Adams is interesting. From old school WCCW clips - he was bigtime over in Texas too. Kind of one of those situations where a territory made a guy maybe? I just remember he got a cup of coffee in WCW when he was older and he was a dud. This topic comes up sometimes in tag teams in which partner made the other - i.e. Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannety, Bret Hart and Jim Neidhart, Animal and Hawk - so I'm going to try and stay away from tag teams. What about Big John Studd? Was he really anybody without Andre? |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 1:03:47 GMT
Well after the Mania run he left for awhile. Then came back as face. That was good for awhile but he left again. Then came back a few years later and then had that motorcycle accident. So he did peak around the Hogan feud, but he was so over before that. From 1975-1986 period were the best years he had. The biggest runs of course being in the biggest territories like Crockett and Georgia. That was huge. He just got over even more insanely after the Hogan thing. Which how could he not, with all that mainstream publicity surrounding all that with the most popular guy in the industry. The 90's stuff I kind of tuned out. Stopped watching WWF for periods here and there.
Chris Adams was kind of over as a face on the mid card. But once he aligned with Gary Hart and turn on Kevin Von Erich, he became a main eventer and got over huge. Good looking guy, good interviews, and pretty good matches I thought. But he also got over in the UWF so it probably would've happened anyways, but that skyrocketed him at the time.
Studd is an interesting one. That's tough to say. He was around in the 70's, and had some good runs for Crockett actually teaming with Ken Patera even then. Had some shots at Backlund and all. So I think he was established already but I think the stuff with Andre made him a big star. Or should I say bigger star. I think the feud with Hogan was huge for him too. Because people really believed he was going to win the title.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 10:56:32 GMT
Well after the Mania run he left for awhile. Then came back as face. That was good for awhile but he left again. Then came back a few years later and then had that motorcycle accident. So he did peak around the Hogan feud, but he was so over before that. From 1975-1986 period were the best years he had. The biggest runs of course being in the biggest territories like Crockett and Georgia. That was huge. He just got over even more insanely after the Hogan thing. Which how could he not, with all that mainstream publicity surrounding all that with the most popular guy in the industry. The 90's stuff I kind of tuned out. Stopped watching WWF for periods here and there. Chris Adams was kind of over as a face on the mid card. But once he aligned with Gary Hart and turn on Kevin Von Erich, he became a main eventer and got over huge. Good looking guy, good interviews, and pretty good matches I thought. But he also got over in the UWF so it probably would've happened anyways, but that skyrocketed him at the time. Studd is an interesting one. That's tough to say. He was around in the 70's, and had some good runs for Crockett actually teaming with Ken Patera even then. Had some shots at Backlund and all. So I think he was established already but I think the stuff with Andre made him a big star. Or should I say bigger star. I think the feud with Hogan was huge for him too. Because people really believed he was going to win the title. What about 'Ronnie Garvin' owing everything to Flair? Or maybe I'm being ignorant here - was he really that much of a big deal for years after he knocked off Flair? He went to WWF and feuded with Valentine - and then wasn't that pretty much it and returned to NWA and turned heel? Kind of seemed like 'peeked' with that title win and then it was just kind 'meh'. |
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Post by flyerzzrul on Jul 29, 2017 16:44:24 GMT
What about Kane? Would he be anything without the Undertaker? Not to change the subject and I know this will be very unpopular but I don't think the Undertaker would have gotten over with todays fan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 16:53:37 GMT
What about Kane? Would he be anything without the Undertaker? Not to change the subject and I know this will be very unpopular but I don't think the Undertaker would have gotten over with todays fan i agree on both counts 'taker basically was the reason Kane existed. didn't kane get thrown a bone late in his career and was given the title? that being said - like Piper (not quite the legend but he's up there) - Kane is a legend - BUT- if it wasn't for that one guy - as you pointed out 'Taker - would he still exist? and truth be told - this is really an unpopular opinion - 'Taker was never 'The Guy'. i've made this point before. sure he was main event and beat Hogan. but in my eyes it was always: Hogan, Hart, HBK, Austin, Rock. 'Taker ran off that gimmick - and he was great at it - but to me he benefitted from 'the gimmick'. 'the gimmick' made him - not the other way around. and that's interesting if 'Taker would have gotten over today. i don't think so but that's just me. |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 17:37:56 GMT
Well after the Mania run he left for awhile. Then came back as face. That was good for awhile but he left again. Then came back a few years later and then had that motorcycle accident. So he did peak around the Hogan feud, but he was so over before that. From 1975-1986 period were the best years he had. The biggest runs of course being in the biggest territories like Crockett and Georgia. That was huge. He just got over even more insanely after the Hogan thing. Which how could he not, with all that mainstream publicity surrounding all that with the most popular guy in the industry. The 90's stuff I kind of tuned out. Stopped watching WWF for periods here and there. Chris Adams was kind of over as a face on the mid card. But once he aligned with Gary Hart and turn on Kevin Von Erich, he became a main eventer and got over huge. Good looking guy, good interviews, and pretty good matches I thought. But he also got over in the UWF so it probably would've happened anyways, but that skyrocketed him at the time. Studd is an interesting one. That's tough to say. He was around in the 70's, and had some good runs for Crockett actually teaming with Ken Patera even then. Had some shots at Backlund and all. So I think he was established already but I think the stuff with Andre made him a big star. Or should I say bigger star. I think the feud with Hogan was huge for him too. Because people really believed he was going to win the title. What about 'Ronnie Garvin' owing everything to Flair? Or maybe I'm being ignorant here - was he really that much of a big deal for years after he knocked off Flair? He went to WWF and feuded with Valentine - and then wasn't that pretty much it and returned to NWA and turned heel? Kind of seemed like 'peeked' with that title win and then it was just kind 'meh'. I'm not sure about that. Garvin was already almost in his mid 40's at that point. His career was going to be winding down soon afterwards. He had a good career before that working for the fullers in the southeastern territory and a few other groups. His biggest exposure ofcourse was with Crockett. But you have to remember, there were no national wrestling companies until the mid 80's so most guys weren't going to be national stars either way. |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 17:40:47 GMT
What about Kane? Would he be anything without the Undertaker? Not to change the subject and I know this will be very unpopular but I don't think the Undertaker would have gotten over with todays fan As I've stated before I was never a fan of that Undertaker gimmick but it worked with the wwf fans. But with the size and talent of a guy like Glenn Jacobs I think he probably would've had a good career either way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 17:45:43 GMT
What about 'Ronnie Garvin' owing everything to Flair? Or maybe I'm being ignorant here - was he really that much of a big deal for years after he knocked off Flair? He went to WWF and feuded with Valentine - and then wasn't that pretty much it and returned to NWA and turned heel? Kind of seemed like 'peeked' with that title win and then it was just kind 'meh'. I'm not sure about that. Garvin was already almost in his mid 40's at that point. His career was going to be winding down soon afterwards. He had a good career before that working for the fullers in the southeastern territory and a few other groups. His biggest exposure ofcourse was with Crockett. But you have to remember, there were no national wrestling companies until the mid 80's so most guys weren't going to be national stars either way. But would you agree that most people know of him because of Flair or 'no'? I'm not talking about the hardcore diehards. The 'casual viewer' who knows of him because he knocked off Flair because of the strap. Kind of my point with all of these guys. They were all great. But - do they owe their super stardom and pushing them over the edge to others. Ala - Piper to Hogan Studd to Andre as another poster mentioned Kane to 'Taker Garvin to Flair Your point of Adams to the Von Erichs. It's no disrespect to Piper, Studd, Kane, Garvin or Adams at all - all major players in the game. But why? Was it due to another 'competitor' and icon that they rivaled against who essentially made them icons? To me, Rock, Austin, Hart, HBK, Flair, Hogan - yadda yadda yadda - no brainers. These guys needed no help. But the above? Hmmmm. I think they owe some of their stardom to those they danced with. |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 18:51:38 GMT
Yeah if you're talking about the casual viewer sure. But I also think when national wrestling companies came along, that had a lot to do with that. Even most of the diehards weren't going to know that a guy was a big star in a territory in Knoxville, TN. In that period of being in a National wrestling company I think you're correct that there were casual fans that know him for him facing Ric Flair as well as fans knowing Piper for mostly his run with Hogan, etc... Whether or not they owe their superstardom to them is an interesting question. In my opinion if a guy has the talent, the look, and the personality and knows what he's doing, He'll probably end up getting over regardless. Maybe not to superstardom if he's not put in certain spots though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 19:05:01 GMT
Yeah if you're talking about the casual viewer sure. But I also think when national wrestling companies came along, that had a lot to do with that. Even most of the diehards weren't going to know that a guy was a big star in a territory in Knoxville, TN. In that period of being in a National wrestling company I think you're correct that there were casual fans that know him for him facing Ric Flair as well as fans knowing Piper for mostly his run with Hogan, etc... Whether or not they owe their superstardom to them is an interesting question. In my opinion if a guy has the talent, the look, and the personality and knows what he's doing, He'll probably end up getting over regardless. Maybe not to superstardom if he's not put in certain spots though. i just don't see Garvin having that 'charisma' to get over on his own - ala the guy who made him in my eyes - Flair same with Studd. i did see the bodyslam challenge down south on youtube - never knew it existed previous to Andre/Studd. he was a big brute. but was there really anything there. i'm no andre fan either. let's go 'new school' here - how about sami zayn - does he owe his career to Kevin Owens? |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 29, 2017 20:50:28 GMT
Well he's a legitimate tough guy that can brawl and wrestle. He was believable. Whether or not he should've had a world title is debatable.
I can't really speak much about Sami Zayn or Kevin Owens. I've only seen them in ROH
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 21:12:22 GMT
Well he's a legitimate tough guy that can brawl and wrestle. He was believable. Whether or not he should've had a world title is debatable. I can't really speak much about Sami Zayn or Kevin Owens. I've only seen them in ROH what do you think about - Greg Valentine made Tito Santana..... now as discussed valentine to my knowledge had some wars in the Indys and quite the past before WWF and maybe i'm being ignorant to Chico Santana's fame - i do remember Valentine and Santana had wars for the IC strap when it meant something and if memory serves Muraco was in there as well. but if it wasn't for Valentine - what did Chico really do? El Matador blew pretty hard..... |
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Post by mrellaguru on Jul 29, 2017 22:22:16 GMT
Scott Hall and Sean Waltman. I doubt that Waltman would have gotten over to the same extent if not for the famous 123 Kid angle and feud with Hall.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 20:42:59 GMT
Scott Hall and Sean Waltman. I doubt that Waltman would have gotten over to the same extent if not for the famous 123 Kid angle and feud with Hall. that's interesting. Waltman was a great wrestler. say what you want about his personality. i agree - Razor putting Kid over on Raw is still talked about to this day. there's an awesome match with Bret Hart vs. Kid on RAW for the belt - I always wondered what Waltman's fame would have been if he had shocked Hart too. |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 31, 2017 19:38:01 GMT
Well he's a legitimate tough guy that can brawl and wrestle. He was believable. Whether or not he should've had a world title is debatable. I can't really speak much about Sami Zayn or Kevin Owens. I've only seen them in ROH what do you think about - Greg Valentine made Tito Santana..... now as discussed valentine to my knowledge had some wars in the Indys and quite the past before WWF and maybe i'm being ignorant to Chico Santana's fame - i do remember Valentine and Santana had wars for the IC strap when it meant something and if memory serves Muraco was in there as well. but if it wasn't for Valentine - what did Chico really do? El Matador blew pretty hard..... Chico had a pretty good run in the AWA for a couple of years and before that in the WWF. But I think in his case it's also a matter of which era you saw him in and how big it got after the expansion. You can make an argument that the belt itself really put him on the map. He had a pretty good and long feud with Muraco for the strap. But the Valentine feud was after the expansion at a time when more people were exposed to the product so it makes sense that that's the one people remember most. Some people remember him more for Strike force. It just depends on when you became a fan in some respects. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 20:06:14 GMT
what do you think about - Greg Valentine made Tito Santana..... now as discussed valentine to my knowledge had some wars in the Indys and quite the past before WWF and maybe i'm being ignorant to Chico Santana's fame - i do remember Valentine and Santana had wars for the IC strap when it meant something and if memory serves Muraco was in there as well. but if it wasn't for Valentine - what did Chico really do? El Matador blew pretty hard..... Chico had a pretty good run in the AWA for a couple of years and before that in the WWF. But I think in his case it's also a matter of which era you saw him in and how big it got after the expansion. You can make an argument that the belt itself really put him on the map. He had a pretty good and long feud with Muraco for the strap. But the Valentine feud was after the expansion at a time when more people were exposed to the product so it makes sense that that's the one people remember most. Some people remember him more for Strike force. It just depends on when you became a fan in some respects. but didn't Strike Force kind of sadly blow? here you had Chico - a legend in his own right - but the former AWA Champ Rick Martel. that's money to me. year long run dominating the division is what it should have been at the top of the division. meh - i mean - i guess they captured the strap - but wasn't it one of those hot potato deals where they just dropped it right off the bat. how about Larry Zbysko? Did Bruno Sammartino make him and after that feud he just ride off of the fumes for years? i always appreciated the 'larry sucks' chants when he was supposed to be a face - well - because i thought he sucked |
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Post by Jayman on Jul 31, 2017 20:31:30 GMT
Chico had a pretty good run in the AWA for a couple of years and before that in the WWF. But I think in his case it's also a matter of which era you saw him in and how big it got after the expansion. You can make an argument that the belt itself really put him on the map. He had a pretty good and long feud with Muraco for the strap. But the Valentine feud was after the expansion at a time when more people were exposed to the product so it makes sense that that's the one people remember most. Some people remember him more for Strike force. It just depends on when you became a fan in some respects. but didn't Strike Force kind of sadly blow? here you had Chico - a legend in his own right - but the former AWA Champ Rick Martel. that's money to me. year long run dominating the division is what it should have been at the top of the division. meh - i mean - i guess they captured the strap - but wasn't it one of those hot potato deals where they just dropped it right off the bat. how about Larry Zbysko? Did Bruno Sammartino make him and after that feud he just ride off of the fumes for years? i always appreciated the 'larry sucks' chants when he was supposed to be a face - well - because i thought he sucked I think they were a pretty solid team. I don't remember how long they were together, but I don't remember it being that short of a run. That was a time where it was easy to get lost in the shuffle because the roster was so huge. It was also a time where the colorless babyface was starting to get phased out and the people wanted more colorful personalities. A lot of new fans were coming along for the ride at the time and remember him for that. That's the last thing I remember him for. I think your pick about Larry Zbysco was the best one of the thread. Even though he was a talent, if not for that feud I'm not sure how far he would've went. But then again he was Verne Gagne's son in law so he would've gotten a push. But his gimmick was the living legend. He bit that off Bruno. And then did the feud with Bruno Sammartino Jr. (david). In georgia. That didn't exactly take over the world, but it was ok. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 21:33:32 GMT
but didn't Strike Force kind of sadly blow? here you had Chico - a legend in his own right - but the former AWA Champ Rick Martel. that's money to me. year long run dominating the division is what it should have been at the top of the division. meh - i mean - i guess they captured the strap - but wasn't it one of those hot potato deals where they just dropped it right off the bat. how about Larry Zbysko? Did Bruno Sammartino make him and after that feud he just ride off of the fumes for years? i always appreciated the 'larry sucks' chants when he was supposed to be a face - well - because i thought he sucked I think they were a pretty solid team. I don't remember how long they were together, but I don't remember it being that short of a run. That was a time where it was easy to get lost in the shuffle because the roster was so huge. It was also a time where the colorless babyface was starting to get phased out and the people wanted more colorful personalities. A lot of new fans were coming along for the ride at the time and remember him for that. That's the last thing I remember him for. I think your pick about Larry Zbysco was the best one of the thread. Even though he was a talent, if not for that feud I'm not sure how far he would've went. But then again he was Verne Gagne's son in law so he would've gotten a push. But his gimmick was the living legend. He bit that off Bruno. And then did the feud with Bruno Sammartino Jr. (david). In georgia. That didn't exactly take over the world, but it was ok. I get Strike Force confused with 'The Can Am Connection' - holy shit they sucked - there was another team AWA Champ Rick Martel was thrown into with the Z-Man - Tom Zenk - there ya go - there's another one - would Zenk be anybody without Martel? I just remember the 'Z-Man' showing up at a 'Clash of the Champions' and I think the Diamond Studd (Scott Hall) laid him to waste. I get Strike Force, The Cam Am Connection mixed up with Pory and Glory too. Bee-Jesus - there's another guy - Paul Roma - what in blue hell did he do? Does he owe his success to Hercules for gaining fame and then going over to the NWA/WCW and joining the 4 Horseman? That being said - what the hell did Hercules ever do? Does he owe his fame to Bobby Heenan? This could be like that Kevin Bacon game.......... |
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