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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 1, 2017 23:15:18 GMT
Maybe this is just because of the way the trailer is edited, but just on the surface level all the action is cool and everything, but it feels very hollow and lifeless. And the CGI doesn't necessarily help it either. This is a great point,
Notice how when the MCU has fights, there is dialog and purpose to what is happening, there is a story within the battle. You see this with Cap talking to Bucky and Falcon during the street chase, you see it with Dr Strange during the reverse time battle, you see it with Tony in any fight he's ever in.
But take the cornfield fight in MOS, it's just smashing and crashing into things and it just goes on and on with no real purpose because fighting!!!!
Fights only have value if there is any purpose given to them.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Aug 1, 2017 23:27:00 GMT
Maybe this is just because of the way the trailer is edited, but just on the surface level all the action is cool and everything, but it feels very hollow and lifeless. And the CGI doesn't necessarily help it either. This is a great point,
Notice how when the MCU has fights, there is dialog and purpose to what is happening, there is a story within the battle. You see this with Cap talking to Bucky and Falcon during the street chase, you see it with Dr Strange during the reverse time battle, you see it with Tony in any fight he's ever in.
But take the cornfield fight in MOS, it's just smashing and crashing into things and it just goes on and on with no real purpose because fighting!!!!
Fights only have value if there is any purpose given to them.
The corn field fight did have a purpose. Zod was looking for the Codex to rebuild his planet on top of earth, so he threatened Clark's mom. Clark fought back. Then he had to protect the town and stop Zod's goons.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 2, 2017 0:03:10 GMT
The corn field fight did have a purpose. Zod was looking for the Codex to rebuild his planet on top of earth, so he threatened Clark's mom. Clark fought back. Then he had to protect the town and stop Zod's goons. Yeah I know, but that's not what I was referring to. I'm specifically talking about the fight itself. Watch Iron Man VS Hulk in Age of Ultron. Tony is narrating, he's telling you what his plans are, etc. Watch the Guardians battle Ronan at the end of GOTG, there are flashbacks to his mom, there is visual communication between the team, there is story happening. Watch Cap fight Bucky on the Helicarriers at the end of TWS. He's reminding him of their past, he's strategically trying to solve the computer, etc. Now compare those to the cornfield fight or the city fight in MOS. They're just smashing. No story is being progressed, you aren't learning anything about the characters. It's just smashing. It's mindless. That's the difference between what Marvel is doing and what DC is doing. It's not good enough to just set up a fight if you stop thinking about what the fight itself is doing, and that's exactly the same reason why people thought the neck snap ending was sort of random. Because they didn't think about the fight itself. They just thought flying through some building would look cool and came up with an ending that served no other purpose other than they needed an ending. Everything going on in the fight, should also have a purpose.
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 2, 2017 1:55:51 GMT
If you limit yourself to the Earth, sure. I'd just up the ante. Take them to New Genesis or Apokolips to continue the fight. It'd be different from an alien invasion or a skybeam. Technically speaking, the Justice League would be the aliens wrecking things on New Genesis or Apokolips, and I guarantee there will be skybeams. It's not skybeams. It's called boomtubes.
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 2, 2017 1:56:43 GMT
This is a great point,
Notice how when the MCU has fights, there is dialog and purpose to what is happening, there is a story within the battle. You see this with Cap talking to Bucky and Falcon during the street chase, you see it with Dr Strange during the reverse time battle, you see it with Tony in any fight he's ever in.
But take the cornfield fight in MOS, it's just smashing and crashing into things and it just goes on and on with no real purpose because fighting!!!!
Fights only have value if there is any purpose given to them.
The corn field fight did have a purpose. Zod was looking for the Codex to rebuild his planet on top of earth, so he threatened Clark's mom. Clark fought back. Then he had to protect the town and stop Zod's goons. MCU fans are too dumb to understand that.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 2, 2017 2:32:13 GMT
Technically speaking, the Justice League would be the aliens wrecking things on New Genesis or Apokolips, and I guarantee there will be skybeams. It's not skybeams. It's called boomtubes.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 2, 2017 14:07:19 GMT
Yeah I know, but that's not what I was referring to. I'm specifically talking about the fight itself. Watch Iron Man VS Hulk in Age of Ultron. Tony is narrating, he's telling you what his plans are, etc. Watch the Guardians battle Ronan at the end of GOTG, there are flashbacks to his mom, there is visual communication between the team, there is story happening. Watch Cap fight Bucky on the Helicarriers at the end of TWS. He's reminding him of their past, he's strategically trying to solve the computer, etc. Now compare those to the cornfield fight or the city fight in MOS. They're just smashing. No story is being progressed, you aren't learning anything about the characters. It's just smashing. It's mindless. That's the difference between what Marvel is doing and what DC is doing. It's not good enough to just set up a fight if you stop thinking about what the fight itself is doing, and that's exactly the same reason why people thought the neck snap ending was sort of random. Because they didn't think about the fight itself. They just thought flying through some building would look cool and came up with an ending that served no other purpose other than they needed an ending. Everything going on in the fight, should also have a purpose. There didnt need to be dialogue in that cornfield fight scene. Superman gets angry because Zod tries to harm his mother. No one is going to be a level headed logical thinker in that state. Its a natural reaction to defend your family from a threat. Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 2, 2017 15:14:49 GMT
Yeah I know, but that's not what I was referring to. I'm specifically talking about the fight itself. Watch Iron Man VS Hulk in Age of Ultron. Tony is narrating, he's telling you what his plans are, etc. Watch the Guardians battle Ronan at the end of GOTG, there are flashbacks to his mom, there is visual communication between the team, there is story happening. Watch Cap fight Bucky on the Helicarriers at the end of TWS. He's reminding him of their past, he's strategically trying to solve the computer, etc. Now compare those to the cornfield fight or the city fight in MOS. They're just smashing. No story is being progressed, you aren't learning anything about the characters. It's just smashing. It's mindless. That's the difference between what Marvel is doing and what DC is doing. It's not good enough to just set up a fight if you stop thinking about what the fight itself is doing, and that's exactly the same reason why people thought the neck snap ending was sort of random. Because they didn't think about the fight itself. They just thought flying through some building would look cool and came up with an ending that served no other purpose other than they needed an ending. Everything going on in the fight, should also have a purpose. There didnt need to be dialogue in that cornfield fight scene. Superman gets angry because Zod tries to harm his mother. No one is going to be a level headed logical thinker in that state. Its a natural reaction to defend your family from a threat. Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. poor Stanton's analytical abilities are severely underdeveloped, he never heard of "show, don't tell" (this is why he sucks so evidently at writing).
Now maybe if Superman in the cornfild scene had said "I don't care, you killed my mommy" he would have understood what the fight is all about.
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 2, 2017 15:15:58 GMT
Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. Compare that to the lame dialogue during the airport skirmish in Civil War: "Are we still going to be friends after this?" "You have a METAL arm!" Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens."
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Post by charzhino on Aug 2, 2017 15:33:04 GMT
Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. Compare that to the lame dialogue during the airport skirmish in Civil War: "Are we still going to be friends after this?" "You have a METAL arm!" Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens." Precisely. There are innumerable examples of cheesy light hearted dialogue in fights which are meant to have severe consequences. Just watch the final climaxes of Age of Ultron, AntMan, GotG, Iron Man 3, Avengers, Thor 2 (predicting same will be with Thor 3) and you'll be facepalming every 2 minutes a quip is expelled.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 2, 2017 15:54:49 GMT
Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens."
What does that even mean? What comes next ?
Cap America: "I’m circumcised" Spiderboy: "Im all man" Hulk: "hahaha, I am famous for my huge zucchini!"
Not to forget this little gem of shoehorning in another new Disney property:
"Hey guys. You ever see that really old movie? Empire Strikes Back? You know that part? When they're on the snowy planet? With the walking thingies? YES! Ha ha! That was awesome!"
ArArArchStanton is so right! This dialogue helps sooooo much to elaborate the heat of battle and underscores the dramatic situation of alliances and friendships falling apart, all I expected from a film titled "Civil War".
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 2, 2017 16:05:48 GMT
Compare that to the lame dialogue during the airport skirmish in Civil War: "Are we still going to be friends after this?" "You have a METAL arm!" Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens." Precisely. There are innumerable examples of cheesy light hearted dialogue in fights which are meant to have severe consequences. Just watch the final climaxes of Age of Ultron, AntMan, GotG, Iron Man 3, Avengers, Thor 2 (predicting same will be with Thor 3) and you'll be facepalming every 2 minutes a quip is expelled. I wasn't a huge fan of the airport fight but you can't really count it because no one is really trying to kill each other. And I don't have any problems with Man of Steel and the fights in there. They were fine. However, in BvS the Batman and Superman was embarrassingly bad because it shouldn't have even happened. There were so many opportunities Superman could have told him what was going on. And with the Doomsday fight, it just felt so stiff because Wonder Woman Batman or Superman weren't communicating with each other and just felt so stilted. I'm worried that's what will happen in Justice League
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Post by formersamhmd on Aug 2, 2017 16:31:01 GMT
Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. Compare that to the lame dialogue during the airport skirmish in Civil War: "Are we still going to be friends after this?" "You have a METAL arm!" Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens." BW and Hawkeye said that to reaffirm they didn't want to fight. Spidey always quips. Cap and Spidey showed mutual respect. Try harder.
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Post by formersamhmd on Aug 2, 2017 16:31:56 GMT
Yeah I know, but that's not what I was referring to. I'm specifically talking about the fight itself. Watch Iron Man VS Hulk in Age of Ultron. Tony is narrating, he's telling you what his plans are, etc. Watch the Guardians battle Ronan at the end of GOTG, there are flashbacks to his mom, there is visual communication between the team, there is story happening. Watch Cap fight Bucky on the Helicarriers at the end of TWS. He's reminding him of their past, he's strategically trying to solve the computer, etc. Now compare those to the cornfield fight or the city fight in MOS. They're just smashing. No story is being progressed, you aren't learning anything about the characters. It's just smashing. It's mindless. That's the difference between what Marvel is doing and what DC is doing. It's not good enough to just set up a fight if you stop thinking about what the fight itself is doing, and that's exactly the same reason why people thought the neck snap ending was sort of random. Because they didn't think about the fight itself. They just thought flying through some building would look cool and came up with an ending that served no other purpose other than they needed an ending. Everything going on in the fight, should also have a purpose. There didnt need to be dialogue in that cornfield fight scene. Superman gets angry because Zod tries to harm his mother. No one is going to be a level headed logical thinker in that state. Its a natural reaction to defend your family from a threat. Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. Please, you call that pretentious nonsense Zod was spouting "fantastic"? At least people in the MCU talk like people.
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Post by formersamhmd on Aug 2, 2017 16:34:01 GMT
Captain America: "I'm from Brooklyn." Spider-Man: "I'm from Queens."
What does that even mean?
It means they didn't want to fight each other and had mutual respect. Try harder.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 2, 2017 17:21:41 GMT
There didnt need to be dialogue in that cornfield fight scene. Superman gets angry because Zod tries to harm his mother. No one is going to be a level headed logical thinker in that state. Its a natural reaction to defend your family from a threat. Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave. "Either you will die, or I will die", I almost laughed at how bad that line was for Zod and I don't see how any of that is fantastic dialogue, or equal to the story being told during MCU fight scenes, because it doesn't accomplish anything. It's just dead air of him telling us what we already know. The MCU fight scenes are crafted with nearly every move being done for a purpose. Thor hitting Cap's shield in Avengers wasn't just for action, it was to define the power of each weapon. Nothing in the Zod fight you mention has near that level of thought put into it, which is exactly why everybody thinks the neck snap ending seems arbitrary. Because it is. It's why tornadocide is mocked, it's why Lois always feels like a plot convenience character. Very little that happens in those DC films has anything to do with defining characters or narrative, and is almost exclusively done just to get to the next shot. That's why Superman just floats over the buildings instead of saving people, because they're more interested in what they think looks like a cool shot no matter how nonsensical it is. It's hollow, and that's why they've been so poorly reviewed.
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Post by formersamhmd on Aug 2, 2017 17:47:20 GMT
There didnt need to be dialogue in that cornfield fight scene. Superman gets angry because Zod tries to harm his mother. No one is going to be a level headed logical thinker in that state. Its a natural reaction to defend your family from a threat. Now fast forward to the final battle between Zod and Superman and you have fantastic dialogue that is atleast equal to or better than all those MCU examples you gave.
it's why Lois always feels like a plot convenience character. Eh, admittedly that's all she's ever been.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 2, 2017 19:02:28 GMT
What does that even mean?
It means they didn't want to fight each other and had mutual respect. Try harder. why so huffy, samy? If THAT is what they were going for, "try harder" is a good writing advise: Reluctance to fight and mutual respect (lol!) is the last thing one would construe from their interactions, quite the contrary. They seemed rather like: I come from the kewlest neighborhood, were are you from, bitch? You know the good old "Show Don't Tell" rule...utter writing fail - try harder indeed! Btw why did Iron & Co bring a strange 14 year old child to a fierce superhero brawl the child has no real stake, history or understanding in, are they completely irresponsible idiots? Answer: yes, no good reason but fans wanted to see Spiderkid in action in an alleged Cap movie. Utterly lazy fan service, samy. Very sad to see poor Cap to be disrespected and sidelined like this in his own, final solo movie. No trust in the old icons anymore it seems. Not saying Cap has deserved the LOGAN treatment, but still...
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 2, 2017 19:11:07 GMT
it's why Lois always feels like a plot convenience character. Eh, admittedly that's all she's ever been. agreed, the female CBM character writing stinks, and Lois finds herself in bad company with pretty plot devices a la Scarlet Johannson or Gweneth Paltrow or the Scarlet Witch character: no solo movie in sight. Shame how women are generally disrespected and sidelined in CBMs. Except for WonderWoman of course, this is a milestone and the exception of the rule that will survive the entire MCU and DCEU thing. But what is one good movie in an ocean of beefcake-in-tights ![](https://s26.postimg.org/kjoykz995/poo.gif) , eh samy?
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Post by formersamhmd on Aug 2, 2017 20:37:22 GMT
It means they didn't want to fight each other and had mutual respect. Try harder. why so huffy, samy? If THAT is what they were going for, "try harder" is a good writing advise: Reluctance to fight and mutual respect (lol!) is the last thing one would construe from their interactions, quite the contrary. They seemed rather like: I come from the kewlest neighborhood, were are you from, bitch? It's how people in my town talk too, it's a friendly sort of thing to say. So I get it. "You know the good old "Show Don't Tell" rule" Yeah, and MCU does it better than DC and Fox. As for why Tony brought Spidey, he figured with his powers and skills he'd be capable of helping. It's called being a fallible Human character. And Logan wasn't that good, to be honest. Critics just went easy on it because it was Jackman's swan song.
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