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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 2, 2017 22:46:59 GMT
Transgenderism itself is the mental illness. This MUST be so, otherwise transgenderism is cosmetic and couldn't be covered by insurance. They want to play it both ways. Nice try - gender dysphoria is the condition and it is considered cured upon transition. Nice try for what? You didn't say anything different from me. |
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 2, 2017 22:52:31 GMT
Nice try - gender dysphoria is the condition and it is considered cured upon transition. Nice try for what? You didn't say anything different from me. A transgender person is not treated as mentally ill. The condition is not wanting to change gender or having changed gender, it is the suffering experienced by the gender mismatch. Once you have transitioned, there is no more mismatch therefore a transitioned person is no longer considered ill. |
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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 2, 2017 23:04:09 GMT
I don't believe the suicide rates are significantly lower in people that have transitioned. Just based on how suicide rates in LGBT teens reduced after same sex marriage was legalized, I'd hazard societal acceptance has a good deal to do with the "mental health" of trans folks. I think the ban might be a Catch-22. Maintaining the problem that is the reason for its existence. That would get you an F in second grade science. Assuming someone was even able to measure LGBT suicide rates before and after same sex marriage became more and more legal over decades (What does T have to do with same sex marriage?), it's a correlation that almost certainly would have coincided with an existing trend. Maybe the rate change is an artifact of an increased out-of-the-closet population, not a decline in suicide. Wall Street people commit suicide. Starving Africans commit murder. The catch-22 is affluence. Homosexuals have higher average incomes than heterosexuals. Homosexuals have biological differences. Biology is not a social construct, but it is a powerful force of nature, and hormonal derangement is one of the reasons that suicide is listed as a side effect of anti-depressants. |
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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 2, 2017 23:09:08 GMT
Nice try for what? You didn't say anything different from me. A transgender person is not treated as mentally ill. The condition is not wanting to change gender or having changed gender, it is the suffering experienced by the gender mismatch. Once you have transitioned, there is no more mismatch therefore a transitioned person is no longer considered ill. A transgender is not a transsexual. A transgender hasn't made a transition, at least not a real one. When I said "transgenderism" before, I guess what I had in mind was technically "gender dysphoria", like you said. It was my way of speaking plainly. |
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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 2, 2017 23:23:15 GMT
That isn't what they are doing. They are basically saying that the rate of mental illness associated with the trans community are so high as to make the entire community a liability. In fairness that is kinda true if you look at things like suicide rates. Also that the potential medical costs of trans community are an unacceptable expense. Its not making exceptions, its making sure they don't have to give special treatment. If that's what it amounted to, I'm glad I didn't listen to it. The answers are simple: * Better screen people for things like depression, anxiety disorders etc. The military has a problem with inadequate screening regardless of the trans issue. The screening is what needs to be fixed. * It's ridiculous that the military would have paid for something like sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy etc. in the first place, and it's ridiculous that the military is paying for Viagra and so on, too. As long as we have the economic system that we do, the military's medical responsibility to its soldiers should be very basic and not pay for anything that's not keeping you alive and healthy enough to fulfill your duties in the military. Screening for depression how? Have a psychiatrist sit down on a couch with them (and keep a log of the conversation on file for blackmail)? A brain scan like in Gattaca? That would just be a slightly different kind of discrimination, more invasive, and MUCH less expedient, which is the whole purpose of screening. Genetic screening is widely considered highly unethical, by a much larger coalition than just Ls, Gs, Bs, and Ts. The debate is still principled versus pragmatic. I'm not a fan of a standing army, or health care. Get rid of them both. It's a bit like asking a libertarian what an elementary school should serve for lunch. Nothing! But schools do in fact serve lunch, so that's not the place for that discussion. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 2, 2017 23:43:49 GMT
See, whatever anyone might think of me, I always reject feelings based arguments. Whatever point I am making, I always back it with statistics. I might not be right. I might have misinterpreted the stats or used an incorrect source, but I always try to back any claim with fact. You got the bolded part right. Now all you need to learn is to accept it. When you actually demonstrate I have done so I might. Also, a tip for you. When you are demonstrably wrong and proven so, saying "That might be or might not be true" doesn't hide the fact that you know piss all about the topic you are attempting to discuss. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 2, 2017 23:46:57 GMT
That isn't what they are doing. They are basically saying that the rate of mental illness associated with the trans community are so high as to make the entire community a liability. In fairness that is kinda true if you look at things like suicide rates. Also that the potential medical costs of trans community are an unacceptable expense. Its not making exceptions, its making sure they don't have to give special treatment. If that's what it amounted to, I'm glad I didn't listen to it. The answers are simple: * Better screen people for things like depression, anxiety disorders etc. The military has a problem with inadequate screening regardless of the trans issue. The screening is what needs to be fixed. * It's ridiculous that the military would have paid for something like sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy etc. in the first place, and it's ridiculous that the military is paying for Viagra and so on, too. As long as we have the economic system that we do, the military's medical responsibility to its soldiers should be very basic and not pay for anything that's not keeping you alive and healthy enough to fulfill your duties in the military. 1) That isn't as easy as you think. How many people kill themselves and their family and friends didn't know anything was wrong? 2) Dunno, US healthcare baffles me to start with. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 2, 2017 23:48:45 GMT
I don't believe the suicide rates are significantly lower in people that have transitioned. That's not the argument. He was saying transgenderism is a mental disorder and that's why it gets healthcare funding. But that's not true - gender dysphoria is the condition, not transgenderism. I know, I'm just pointing out I'm reasonably certain that transition doesn't decrease the rate of suicide. If the problem is related to dysphoria, then transition wouldn't appear to be the answer. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 3, 2017 0:55:47 GMT
If that's what it amounted to, I'm glad I didn't listen to it. The answers are simple: * Better screen people for things like depression, anxiety disorders etc. The military has a problem with inadequate screening regardless of the trans issue. The screening is what needs to be fixed. * It's ridiculous that the military would have paid for something like sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy etc. in the first place, and it's ridiculous that the military is paying for Viagra and so on, too. As long as we have the economic system that we do, the military's medical responsibility to its soldiers should be very basic and not pay for anything that's not keeping you alive and healthy enough to fulfill your duties in the military. 1) That isn't as easy as you think. How many people kill themselves and their family and friends didn't know anything was wrong? 2) Dunno, US healthcare baffles me to start with. Re (1) That it might be difficult to screen for depression has no special relevance to transgenders in the military. If it's difficult to screen for depression, it's difficult to screen everyone, transgendered or not. |
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Post by Cinemachinery on Aug 3, 2017 17:04:36 GMT
"I haven't read anything about this but I wanna TAWK! Burger chapel hoodie pregnant!"
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Post by thorshairspray on Aug 3, 2017 18:17:59 GMT
1) That isn't as easy as you think. How many people kill themselves and their family and friends didn't know anything was wrong? 2) Dunno, US healthcare baffles me to start with. Re (1) That it might be difficult to screen for depression has no special relevance to transgenders in the military. If it's difficult to screen for depression, it's difficult to screen everyone, transgendered or not. Yes, but the point is that the suicide attempt rate in the trans community is around 40% Compared to 4% in the general population. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 3, 2017 18:32:21 GMT
Re (1) That it might be difficult to screen for depression has no special relevance to transgenders in the military. If it's difficult to screen for depression, it's difficult to screen everyone, transgendered or not. Yes, but the point is that the suicide attempt rate in the trans community is around 40% Compared to 4% in the general population. The percentage of persons with suicidal tendencies that they're already letting into the service is way higher than the percentage for the general population though. So for whatever reasons, the military is already attracting that demographic. Given (a) that we know the above fact, and (b) we know that transgender persons have been allowed for awhile into various militaries (including the U.S. already), what we should focus on is this: just what are the liabilities for service when it comes to enlisting persons with suicidal tendencies? There do not appear to be any liabilities, really. So it's a non-issue. |
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