spiderwort
Junior Member
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,544
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Post by spiderwort on Aug 5, 2017 0:29:52 GMT
Nanook of the North (1924) is of the world's greatest documentaries, made by the man generally considered to be the "father" of the documentary, Robert Flaherty. It's a masterful film made by someone who was relatively unschooled in filmmaking. But Flaherty spent a long time with Nanook and his family (close to a year, I think), and in that time managed exquisitely to capture the the lives of the Inuit in their starkly beautiful world. And I don't think it was "staged," except perhaps for a few attempts at overlapping actions for continuity's sake - but I'd question even that. I think it's what it appears to be: a credible and powerfully authentic documentary. One sad footnote: Nanook died of starvation soon after the film’s completion.
As for the question of the documentary category itself: it seems to me that it's becoming more and more blurred in present days. The Story of the Weeping Camel (2003) won an Oscar as best documentary even though it seemed to me to be a perfect blend of both documentary and narrative elements. The same filmmaker's next film, The Cave of the Yellow Dog (2005), is very similar. But in the end, I'm happy for the final result, whatever hybrid it may be called, because both films are wonderful to watch.
Perhaps it's the ethnographic approach that skews the genre slightly. There's a wonderful silent film, The Silent Enemy (1930), an obvious and acknowledged "docu-drama" of Canadian Indians at war with each other that may be close to Nanook. And I would agree that none of these films is at all like Barbara Kopple's Harlan County, U.S.A. or any number of other conventional documentaries. But clearly, they're not just narrative films either.
And where, I wonder, do the more abstract and poetic (nefarious propaganda aside) films like Refienstahl's Olympia or Triumph of the Will and Eisentein's October (Ten Days That Shook the World) or Strike belong? They're clearly documentaries but are also not at all like the works of Kopple, the Maysles Brothers, Claude Lanzman, Michael Apted, Werner Herzog, Ken Burns, et al. Interesting topic to ponder.
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Post by petrolino on Aug 5, 2017 0:33:36 GMT
Hi spiderwort. Merian Cooper was born in Florida but one of his first jobs in journalism was in the state of Minnesota. His partner Ernest Schoedsack hailed from Council Bluffs in Iowa. Their documentary 'Grass' (1925) was inspired by the work of Robert Flaherty of Iron Mountain, Michigan.
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Post by petrolino on Aug 5, 2017 0:54:29 GMT
Hi spiderwort. Merian Cooper was born in Florida but one of his first jobs in journalism was in the state of Minnesota. His partner Ernest Schoedsack hailed from Council Bluffs in Iowa. Their documentary 'Grass' (1925) was inspired by the work of Robert Flaherty of Iron Mountain, Michigan. I was unaware of this background, petrolino. Thanks so much for the info. All midwesterners, who would have thought? Have you seen GRASS: A NATION'S BATTLE FOR LIFE? I have and I love it. A wonderful film, imo. The writer was Richard Carver who later wrote the docu-drama I mentioned earlier, THE SILENT ENEMY. Another documentary that Cooper and Schoedsack did, which is also beautiful is CHANG: A DRAMA OF THE WILDERNESS (1927). Interesting that they went on to produce (Cooper) and produce and direct (Schoedsack) some important films. Among them, KING KONG, of course, as well as a lot of John Ford films, like THE SEARCHERS, et al. Of course, Michael Apted and Werner Herzog were very successful in crossing from narrative films to documentaries, so it's easy to see how it can be done. I wonder if everyone knows how much the world owes Robert Flaherty? Those early docs may well be on youtube for anyone interested, going by the past. Well worth checking out. Here's a pair of key docos for everybody from experimental doyenne and avant-garde pioneer Maya Deren : The Private Life Of A Cat' (1947) & 'Divine Horsemen : The Living Gods Of Haiti' (1985). It's perhaps a little bit like the evolution of drive-in movies into a major economic force, spiderwort. Sam Arkoff was from Iowa, Roger Corman was from Michigan, and a host of other key players in the drive-in evolution were midwestern-based salesmen, engineers, entrepreneurs and artists. According to midwesterners I've spoke to, this is largely because there's nothing to do (and too much to drink) lol! |
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Post by petrolino on Aug 5, 2017 1:23:05 GMT
It's perhaps a little bit like the evolution of drive-in movies into a major economic force, spiderwort. Sam Arkoff was from Iowa, Roger Corman was from Michigan, and a host of other key players in the drive-in evolution were midwestern-based salesmen, engineers, entrepreneurs and artists. According to midwesterners I've spoke to, this is largely because there's nothing to do (and too much to drink) lol! I'm actually from the midwest originally, and I can attest to that! And thanks for the other titles. I'll check them out. I've seen Deren's MESHES OF THE AFTERNOON, and maybe a couple others I don't remember the names of. She was quite the experimental filmmaker. Lord, it's good to recall these unique talents in this world of too much mediocrity! While I'm thinking of it, Shirley Clarke is another documentary filmmaker worth mentioning. Shirley Clarke I don't know, shall add her to my list. Thanks! Some of my favourite horror filmmakers who emerged in the late 1960s were socially conscious, politically activated documentarians on the side. Tobe Hooper worked in the evolutionary music field for doc power players PBS, George Romero produced the now-notorious 'O. J. Simpson : Juice On The Loose' (1974), Wes Craven worked in a documentary house and was (allegedly) later invited by President William Jefferson Clinton to the White House (as documented by ABC) for his radical relative-youth endeavours, and John Carpenter worked on a couple of short documentary films about his own achievements. If you're from Ohio, get down on it and lend support to the Browns (not the Bengals)!! |
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Post by teleadm on Aug 5, 2017 14:50:46 GMT
Robert Flaherty is usually mentioned among the great directors, something that is essentially wrong when it comes to documentaries, calling him a director also calls for that his movies were staged, something that I hope they were not. Maybe calling him the greatest film maker of documentaries would be more appropiate. A few things that happens that is interesting when the cameras is not rolling, can offcourse be re-staged. Considering that cameras back then was very heavy it's amazing what he managed to document on film.
I hope I don't sound too sour.
Flaherty's last movie The Titan: Story of Michelangelo 1950 won the Oscar for best documentary, yet it wasn't he who was awarded the Oscar, it went to the producer Robert Snyder. That sounds odd, since without a master like Flaherty, the movie might have been a boring travelogue.
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Post by koskiewicz on Aug 5, 2017 16:35:05 GMT
...this is a favorite genre of min:
Some favorites include The Guns of August, Relegulous, Russian Ark, Day of the Locust (I am a Vietnam war era vet) and Image of an Assassination which is an interesting re look at the Zapruder film. This doc includes footage never before seen which were captured in the sprocket holes of the 8mm footage.
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 6, 2018 2:29:36 GMT
Unfortunately, I have seen very few documentaries and it is one genre where I will like to expand my knowledge. The only documentaries of any kind I might have seen are those that were made on Nat Geo. Don't think I have seen many film documentaries. One of my friends has recommended me a British documentary film made on West Indies cricket team of 1970s. It's called Fire in Babylon. I wonder if anyone has seen it and would you recommend? May be london777 or pimpinainteasy might have seen it? |
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Post by london777 on Oct 6, 2018 2:43:18 GMT
Nope, sorry. I am not big on documentaries. |
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Post by london777 on Oct 6, 2018 2:47:21 GMT
I hope I don't sound too sour. This board could do with a bit more sour and a bit less saccharin. Keep it up! |
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Post by OldAussie on Oct 6, 2018 3:02:00 GMT
in moderation.....
As for documentaries, my favourites are mostly more recent -
Fog of War
some of Michael Moore's stuff
The Civil War and World at War are television products but essential viewing.
Hearts and Minds
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Post by petrolino on Oct 6, 2018 3:02:24 GMT
I hope I don't sound too sour. This board could do with a bit more sour and a bit less saccharin. Keep it up! Please let's here some lemons, london june. The pevious predominant boardshare is waiting (if not wilting). |
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Post by london777 on Oct 6, 2018 3:14:53 GMT
Please let's here some lemons, london june. The pevious predominant boardshare is waiting (if not wilting).  Not your usual impeccable English? |
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Post by mikef6 on Oct 6, 2018 4:30:01 GMT
spiderwort Well, it may not be entirely “present days.” “I Was A Communist For The FBI,” a historical fiction Based On A True Story style movie with Frank Lovejoy, got an Oscar nomination for Best Documentary Feature for 1951. Go figure. Two movies that have come out this year and one from 2016 (and which I think are great achievements) combine documentary talking heads with actor recreations of events but all go in different directions. The 2016 film is Tower, the story of what many believe is the first mass killing in American history, the sniper attack from the University of Texas tower on August 1, 1966. The actual words of survivors are used to narrate the events which are portrayed in motion capture animation. American Animals tells the compelling true crime story with actors but interrupt the story with interview and commentary material by the actual people being portrayed. The “fiction” part, the acted out part, is the major emphasis of the movie. On the other hand, Three Identical Strangers is very much a documentary format with discreet, almost abstract actor recreations of certain scenes. All three stories, all three tellings, are very creative uses of the documentary structure in different ways, but all are absolutely riveting and may very well be on my Best Of the Decade list come the end of 2019. I am a fan of documentaries and have seen many. A few great ones from recent years are: The Missing Piece: Mona Lisa, Her Thief, the True Story / Joe Medeiros (2012) Six Ways To Santiago / Lydia Smith (2013) Finding Vivian Maier / John Maloof and Charlie Siskel (2013) Tim’s Vermeer / Teller (2014) Listen To Me Marlon / Stevan Riley (2015) Hitchcock/Truffaut / Kent Jones (2015) Janis: Little Girl Blue / Amy Berg (2015) The Beatles: Eight Days a Week - The Touring Years / Ron Howard (2016)
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Oct 6, 2018 12:07:37 GMT
Unfortunately, I have seen very few documentaries and it is one genre where I will like to expand my knowledge. The only documentaries of any kind I might have seen are those that were made on Nat Geo. Don't think I have seen many film documentaries. One of my friends has recommended me a British documentary film made on West Indies cricket team of 1970s. It's called Fire in Babylon. I wonder if anyone has seen it and would you recommend? May be london777 or pimpinainteasy might have seen it? no man, but its on HOTSTAR. |
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 6, 2018 12:56:45 GMT
Unfortunately, I have seen very few documentaries and it is one genre where I will like to expand my knowledge. The only documentaries of any kind I might have seen are those that were made on Nat Geo. Don't think I have seen many film documentaries. One of my friends has recommended me a British documentary film made on West Indies cricket team of 1970s. It's called Fire in Babylon. I wonder if anyone has seen it and would you recommend? May be london777 or pimpinainteasy might have seen it? no man, but its on HOTSTAR. Found a print on youtube but the sound quality is not good so I will try to get it from my library. It seems to be pretty interesting and describes the story of emergence of fearsome West Indies. Jeff Thomson had demolished West Indies with his lightning pace (also supported by Dennis Lillee) which led to Clive Llyod thinking that in order to win the West Indies needed real fast bowlers like Thomo and Lillee. In their next tour to India they changed their tactics and took fearsome Roberts, Holding and Croft, who bowled with relentless pace even to Indian tailenders and hospitalized the Indians. Their next tour was in England and Tony Greig made the famous "I intend to make them grovel comment". It was now black vs white issue and West Indies unleashed a fury that was never seen since bodyline series. Tony Greig had to eat his words as England was defeated. Though interestingly, it was not just the bowlers but also the batsman Sir Viv Richards who scored 829 runs in the series. It was the beggining of a decade long domination. |
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spiderwort
Junior Member
@spiderwort
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 9,340
|
Post by spiderwort on Oct 7, 2018 3:23:39 GMT
...this is a favorite genre of min: Some favorites include The Guns of August, Relegulous, Russian Ark, Day of the Locust (I am a Vietnam war era vet) and Image of an Assassination which is an interesting re look at the Zapruder film. This doc includes footage never before seen which were captured in the sprocket holes of the 8mm footage. Hey, kos, I don't think of The Guns of August, Russian Ark and Day of the Locust as docs. I'd be interested in knowing why you perceive them that way. And the Zapruder film certainly brings back profound teenage memories of that awful time. I haven't seen Image of an Assassination, but it certainly looks like it deserves a viewing. Thanks for the recommendation.
(Thanks to everyone for your comments. This thread somehow got away from me over a year ago. Sorry about that.)
While I'm at it, one of my all-time favorite documentaries is the Claude Lanzmann (RIP) epic, SHOAH, which recounts the story of the Holocaust through interviews with witnesses - perpetrators as well as survivors. I found it riveting, amazing, and heartbreaking.
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Post by petrolino on Oct 7, 2018 3:27:58 GMT
According to reports, a Mexican documentary is in the pre-production stages charting the extraordinary life and times of Mexico's Greatest Export, Alberto Del Rio. He's currently helping MMA fighters get a break in Mexico.
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 7, 2018 3:35:39 GMT
According to reports, a Mexican documentary is in the pre-production stages charting the extraordinary life and times of Mexico's Greatest Export, Alberto Del Rio. He's currently helping MMA fighters get a break in Mexico.
I sometimes enjoy your posts on wrestling board even if I do not contribute much. I guess you have a good interest in wrestling, isn't it Pertrolino?  |
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Post by petrolino on Oct 7, 2018 3:43:58 GMT
According to reports, a Mexican documentary is in the pre-production stages charting the extraordinary life and times of Mexico's Greatest Export, Alberto Del Rio. He's currently helping MMA fighters get a break in Mexico.
I sometimes enjoy your posts on wrestling board even if I do not contribute much. I guess you a good interest in wrestling, isn't it Pertrolino? Aj June, oh yeh! Check out my main man in [post]-action, Alberto, Del R-iii-ooooo!!! Nobody does it better (if you're looking for irreversible termination). 
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Post by koskiewicz on Oct 7, 2018 16:02:53 GMT
spider: I consider those docs on WWI and Vietnam because they detail historical footage which document the causes of those wars...in the case of Russian Ark, it is more of a visit to a fascinating genuine historical place that most of us will never see in real life. I might also include films like Koyanisqatsi in the documentary category. Another one for me would be "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" based on the book and narrated by the author. But that is just me.
and spider: just curious. What genre would you classify the titles I mentioned?
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