Jaguar
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Just a regular guy in an irregular world
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Post by Jaguar on Feb 4, 2017 2:59:33 GMT
Discuss
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2017 15:34:41 GMT
Every region is different. The West is for the westerners.
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Post by SaturdayAfternoon on Feb 4, 2017 18:44:38 GMT
So all of those Muslims who have been living in the 'west' for generations are a figment?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2017 18:49:10 GMT
So all of those Muslims who have been living in the 'west' for generations are a figment? The fact that they live in 'the west' does not make their values of the west. In fact, there is even evidence to suggest that the younger generations born in their 'western nations' are even more religiously conservative than their parents' generation.
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Post by SaturdayAfternoon on Feb 4, 2017 20:43:27 GMT
Hey Mic nice to see you made it. I will probably sign up later.
I was a bit disappointed to see this was another proboard. But I will give it a chance.
Yes some children tend to be a bit more conservative but that is not an issue with Islam.
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Post by Arlon10 on Feb 4, 2017 23:41:52 GMT
So all of those Muslims who have been living in the 'west' for generations are a figment? The fact that they live in 'the west' does not make their values of the west. In fact, there is even evidence to suggest that the younger generations born in their 'western nations' are even more religiously conservative than their parents' generation. There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. There are five mosques in Richmond, Virginia. They seem to be getting along fine.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 5:32:04 GMT
The fact that they live in 'the west' does not make their values of the west. In fact, there is even evidence to suggest that the younger generations born in their 'western nations' are even more religiously conservative than their parents' generation. There are 3.3 million Muslims in the United States. There are five mosques in Richmond, Virginia. They seem to be getting along fine. The Muslims in the US aren't as poorly integrated as in the UK and Europe. I think that's because a)the standards for getting in are much higher and b)the relative size of the Muslim population in the US is too small to cause too much turmoil. But if the US Muslim population gets up to 5%, then expect more trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 6:50:37 GMT
To a certain extent that is true.
A lot of the tenets of the religion are not compatible. However there are plenty of westernized Muslims that manage to put aside the more problematic aspects of the faith in the same way that most Christians do.
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Post by Arlon10 on Feb 5, 2017 7:28:06 GMT
The Muslims in the US aren't as poorly integrated as in the UK and Europe. I think that's because a)the standards for getting in are much higher and b)the relative size of the Muslim population in the US is too small to cause too much turmoil. But if the US Muslim population gets up to 5%, then expect more trouble. Skin color shouldn't be relevant, but it might be a complication anyway. Some large U.S. cities are predominantly black. Richmond, Virginia is 55% black. However that could be a reason there is less trouble rather than more.
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Post by thorshairspray on Feb 7, 2017 13:15:23 GMT
The Muslims in the US aren't as poorly integrated as in the UK and Europe. I think that's because a)the standards for getting in are much higher and b)the relative size of the Muslim population in the US is too small to cause too much turmoil. But if the US Muslim population gets up to 5%, then expect more trouble. Skin color shouldn't be relevant, but it might be a complication anyway. Some large U.S. cities are predominantly black. Richmond, Virginia is 55% black. However that could be a reason there is less trouble rather than more. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 6:39:33 GMT
I don't see how it's any less compatible than Christianity or Judaism.
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Post by awhina on Feb 18, 2017 7:10:23 GMT
So all of those Muslims who have been living in the 'west' for generations are a figment? Apparently!
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Post by Karl Aksel on Feb 18, 2017 7:24:45 GMT
The Muslims in the US aren't as poorly integrated as in the UK and Europe. I think that's because a)the standards for getting in are much higher and b)the relative size of the Muslim population in the US is too small to cause too much turmoil. But if the US Muslim population gets up to 5%, then expect more trouble. You know, they used to say the same thing about Jews. In 1851, Norway was the last country in Europe to open up their borders to Jews,* and when that happened conservatives were protesting that this would seriously jeopardise the safety of our nation. Jews would be flooding our borders (there were waves of Jewish refugees in those days, fleeing Russia), crime would soar (because Jews, you understand, were thieves, murderers, rapists etc. - "everybody" knew that), they would take over key positions in our government etc. Of course none of that happened, but if we fast forward to today, the arguments are not unfamiliar. It's just that "Jews" have been replaced with "Muslims". And again, we have a Muslim population of about 5% in Norway and we're fine. There are a few hot spots in Europe, but they are very few, and not representative of their respective countries as a whole. It is common for capitals to have the highest percentage of foreign residents. London is no example. Now, I visit London frequently, and I have seen none of these deplorable conditions. It is a big city with big city problems, but not because "there's Mooslems in it, innit?" My sister lives in London, and has done so for the past 13 years. She hasn't reported anything of the kind, either. So these "problems" with Muslims are largely imagined. Yes, certain incidents are real, but there is no rape epidemic or European cities in ruin. Statistics show Sweden to have an alarmingly high rate of rape, but this has more to do with the method of collecting data and women's willingness to report than the actual occurrence of rape. And no, younger generations of Muslims do not tend to be even more conservative than their parents. They tend to blend in better, in fact. But in areas where Muslims are treated with suspicion, perhaps even shunned (and thus forced to seek each other out to live with friendly neighbours), it is only understandable that they cling even more to their roots - because the locals have already created an "us vs them" atmosphere, and why on earth should anyone acquiesce to people who believe that your culture, your religion, your heritage - your identity - is evil? Everyone wants to be proud of their heritage, after all. If you demonise someone's background, this can only possibly serve to entrench them in it. Jews tend to be very proud of their Jewishness to this day, precisely because of the adversity they've been through. If you don't focus on Muslims' religion, they will not focus on it so much either. Treat them as equals, and they will be more inclined to blend in with society, because that is in our instincts. In most places, this works just fine: Muslims keep their religion, but follow the secular laws of society. Just like Christians have learned to do. *§2 of our constitution stated the following: The evangelical-Lutheran religion remains the official religion of the State. The inhabitants who belong to this faith are obligated to raise their children accordingly. Jesuits and monastic orders are not to be tolerated. Jews are still denied access to the kingdom." Emphasis mine. It was §2, so it was clearly quite important.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 8:20:19 GMT
The Muslims in the US aren't as poorly integrated as in the UK and Europe. I think that's because a)the standards for getting in are much higher and b)the relative size of the Muslim population in the US is too small to cause too much turmoil. But if the US Muslim population gets up to 5%, then expect more trouble. You know, they used to say the same thing about Jews. In 1851, Norway was the last country in Europe to open up their borders to Jews,* and when that happened conservatives were protesting that this would seriously jeopardise the safety of our nation. Jews would be flooding our borders (there were waves of Jewish refugees in those days, fleeing Russia), crime would soar (because Jews, you understand, were thieves, murderers, rapists etc. - "everybody" knew that), they would take over key positions in our government etc. Of course none of that happened, but if we fast forward to today, the arguments are not unfamiliar. It's just that "Jews" have been replaced with "Muslims". And again, we have a Muslim population of about 5% in Norway and we're fine. There are a few hot spots in Europe, but they are very few, and not representative of their respective countries as a whole. It is common for capitals to have the highest percentage of foreign residents. London is no example. Now, I visit London frequently, and I have seen none of these deplorable conditions. It is a big city with big city problems, but not because "there's Mooslems in it, innit?" My sister lives in London, and has done so for the past 13 years. She hasn't reported anything of the kind, either. So these "problems" with Muslims are largely imagined. Yes, certain incidents are real, but there is no rape epidemic or European cities in ruin. Statistics show Sweden to have an alarmingly high rate of rape, but this has more to do with the method of collecting data and women's willingness to report than the actual occurrence of rape. And no, younger generations of Muslims do not tend to be even more conservative than their parents. They tend to blend in better, in fact. But in areas where Muslims are treated with suspicion, perhaps even shunned (and thus forced to seek each other out to live with friendly neighbours), it is only understandable that they cling even more to their roots - because the locals have already created an "us vs them" atmosphere, and why on earth should anyone acquiesce to people who believe that your culture, your religion, your heritage - your identity - is evil? Everyone wants to be proud of their heritage, after all. If you demonise someone's background, this can only possibly serve to entrench them in it. Jews tend to be very proud of their Jewishness to this day, precisely because of the adversity they've been through. If you don't focus on Muslims' religion, they will not focus on it so much either. Treat them as equals, and they will be more inclined to blend in with society, because that is in our instincts. In most places, this works just fine: Muslims keep their religion, but follow the secular laws of society. Just like Christians have learned to do. *§2 of our constitution stated the following: The evangelical-Lutheran religion remains the official religion of the State. The inhabitants who belong to this faith are obligated to raise their children accordingly. Jesuits and monastic orders are not to be tolerated. Jews are still denied access to the kingdom." Emphasis mine. It was §2, so it was clearly quite important. Good to see you here Karl. To start, I will say that I have respect for your position on this matter, and it is one that I used to share. It is certainly true that when a group is demonised by the population at large, this does tend to cause them to become more insular and more trenchant about clinging to their identity. I think that in this sense, we are caught in a vicious circle with our Muslim population, and buggered if anyone knows how we're going to get out of it except for placing severe restrictions on Muslim immigration. However, simply because the Jews were an imagined threat in the past, it doesn't mean that the Muslims are today. One thing that I think that you are ignoring is the implacable resistence to freedom of speech that is common throughout the world's Muslim population. Although I wasn't following the news at the time (as I would have been very young), from what I am aware of, there was no 'Muslim scare' ongoing at the time when Muslims rose up in furious protest against Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses. Or even when the cartoons that appeared in the Danish newspaper. Muslims demand unwavering reverence and respect for their beliefs, and have no sense of humour with regards to satire, and no tolerance for depictions of their prophet. Whilst one can be around ordinary Muslims all day and not feel any cause for concern, there is a genuine reason to fear for the future of freedom of speech in particular, given that the overwhelming majority of Muslims stridently believe that any depiction of the prophet Mohammed should be criminalised. There is tremendous pressure from the Muslim community here in the UK to implement new blasphemy laws, and Muslim nations have even been lobbying the UN for a global blasphemy law with special focus on Islam. Freedom of speech is not the only issue, but it's possibly the most pressing one at the moment, as I don't expect Muslims to be able to successfully lobby the government to outlaw homosexuality here (52% of British Muslims said that homosexuality should be illegal in a recent survey) or implement Sharia law for the time being. But the growing Muslim population is a time bomb and there are going to be more concerns coming into play as that population continues to grow, and as the governments of Western Europe continue to mollify them. With regards to my claim about Muslim youths being more religiously conservative than their parents' generation, I have included my source for that claim below: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-British-Muslims-getting-more-radical.html
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Post by Karl Aksel on Feb 18, 2017 9:41:23 GMT
Good to see you here Karl. To start, I will say that I have respect for your position on this matter, and it is one that I used to share. It is certainly true that when a group is demonised by the population at large, this does tend to cause them to become more insular and more trenchant about clinging to their identity. I think that in this sense, we are caught in a vicious circle with our Muslim population, and buggered if anyone knows how we're going to get out of it except for placing severe restrictions on Muslim immigration. Or perhaps stop placing them all in places which are already struggling with integration. Malmö, Sweden, for example, has had major problems with gang fighting for decades. Any sort of immigration there of any kind is a pretty bad idea at the moment, until they have sorted out the problems. The problem with immigrants and refugees has never really been their religion, anyway. One thing is that they are different, come from a different culture and have trouble blending in for that reason. Another reason is that if immigrants come from places of poverty, famine, war or some other undesirable conditions (which is true for a great many of non-Western immigrants), then they are also used to a more dog-eat-dog environment. It will be difficult to just leave that behind. But again, this has nothing to do with religion, and we see the same problems with Eastern European immigrants. I'm not convinced by that argument. Not least because the anti-semites of the past were every bit as convinced that they were right, as the anti-Muslims today are convinced that they are right. "The difference is that our fears are justified" doesn't convince me, because the evidence also tends to be the same. Jews were treated with suspicion, shunned, mistreated, forcing them to live in their own areas, and for that reason Jews were a bit more likely to commit crime. Not because they were more inclined to be criminal for being Jews, but because they were forced into that corner by having fewer legal opportunities realistically open to them. So it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. We see the same with minorities today. Most people are against freedom of speech. They don't think they are, but most people are only in favour of freedom of speech until they hear something they really don't like. And all countries have certain restrictions. Yes, Muslims do not like depictions of Muhammed, but most Muslims would not want a ban for non-Muslims. You may remember the cartoon thing in Denmark, but there are some details most people are unaware of. There were a couple of outspoken imams who tried to stir things up, but for as long as they were just cartoons, most Muslims didn't care. Only when one imam lied and said they were burning Qurans in the town square did they succeed in stirring up righteous indignation. At any rate, many Western countries have had laws against blasphemy until quite recently (Life of Brian was at first banned in Norway because it was deemed blasphemous), without this having much of a consequence for our quality of life. Germany still has restrictions on freedom of speech as pertains the nazis and the Holocaust. Not many claim that that is a dangerous threat to our civilisation. So if, some day, I was no longer allowed to draw Muhammed, this would affect me the same as having my right to deny the Holocaust revoked. I am not particularly inclined to do either. I believe it should be allowed, of course, but instead of a slippery slope towards more bans we have instead, in the West, seen the opposite development: freedom of speech is becoming more and more universal by the decade. I do not see a ban on drawing Muhammed as any better or worse than a ban on religion, except where religious practices violate laws already in place. I have seen many different statistics on this showing very different things. It depends on the size and location of the population sample, as well as how you phrase the questions. I would be interested in reading that. Any links? If only 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal, then that is tremendous progress considering their cultural background. Though the UK has a great many second and third generation Muslims by now. But consider this: How many British Christians (whether religious or secular) were for the same ban just 20 years ago? 50 years ago it was illegal. Just 35 years ago it was illegal in Northern Ireland, and 37 years ago it was illegal in Scotland. Some Christian countries - especially in South America - legalised homosexuality much later. Chile, in 1999. This is recent history. Meanwhile, there are Muslim countries today where homosexuality is legal. So it is clearly more to do with culture than religion. Indeed, religion is more to do with culture than religion, which is why there is such a huge difference in how any given world religion is practised. Well, that is statistics. Until I see the criteria and underlying elements for that statistic, I cannot even comment. It could be that the recent influx of refugees has boosted the young Muslim population, so that a great many of them are actually first generation immigrants. Or maybe not. I still do not know anything about the population samples, though. What I do know is that anti-Islamic sentiments have been on the rise for the past 16 years, and young people are more likely to respond to such sentiments with anger than are older people. That said, I have never met any of these radical types.
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Post by drystyx on Feb 18, 2017 20:25:00 GMT
You've hit upon something that you might not be aware of.
Nothing is compatible with Western culture. Western culture is based on praise of demonic presences and spirits. Any association with Western culture is going to bring about the worst in any religion. "Isis" is the perfect example. "Isis", "Taliban", all of them, are what happens when Islam meets Western thought. The root of these evils is not Islam. Islam isn't even the trunk. It's merely added into some branches of the evil. The root is a demonic force. The trunk is Western culture. Most people who weren't totally blinded by Western propaganda foresaw this coming 30 years ago, at least in general terms.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 20:53:50 GMT
Any place with between 2% and 99% Muslim population is a place which is struggling to integrate Muslims with non-Muslims. Their religion forms the backbone of their culture. Christian societies have evolved to become more secular. Whereas the most secular Islamic society wpild be equivalent to a very conservative Christian society. Even Muslims that are prized as being 'moderate' in the media are very much in favour of blasphemy laws. One example of Iqbal Sacranie, who was basically the face of moderate Islam in Britain, but stated that whilst people should be allowed not to believe in Islam, it should not be permissible to criticise it. I was aware of the antics of the Imams, but the outcry surrounding Salman Rushdie shows that Muslims do not need to be manipulated in order to become outraged by any criticism of their religion. Meanwhile, espousing atheism is illegal in all or nearly all Islamic countries. Atheists are deemed to be 'terrorists' by Saudi law. You may also get a kick out of the fact (which you are likely already aware of) that Saudi Arabia criticised Norway for its human rights records, due to the lack of protection for Muslims against having their beliefs questioned. Blasphemy laws are barely used to protect Christianity. And it's more than just not being able to depict Mohammed. Muslims are desirous of laws which would ringfence their religion from criticism entirely. They are being assisted in this campaign by regressive leftists and their kneejerk accusations of 'Islamophobia' (which is a nonsense term). Of course. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/25/muslims-blasphemy-law-uk-un-mohammed-youtube_n_1912004.htmlwww.independent.co.uk/voices/iv-drip/muslims-call-for-blasphemy-law-do-you-think-blasphemy-is-a-case-for-the-courts-8180001.htmlAnother survey also found that 0 Muslims out of 500 surveyed considered homosexuality to be 'acceptable'. Homosexuality is still punishable by the death penalty in numerous Muslim countries, and you would need to go back very far to find such severe penalties in Christian nations (apart from perhaps African Christian nations). I dare say that many of the radical types present as being ordinary in public.
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Post by ChaosMonster on Feb 18, 2017 20:56:14 GMT
Muslims should be exposed to Jesus as much as possible. The love of Jesus will prevail in all things, Muslims will not be able to stand in the light of that truth.
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Post by yezziqa on Feb 18, 2017 22:13:27 GMT
Muslims should be exposed to Jesus as much as possible. The love of Jesus will prevail in all things, Muslims will not be able to stand in the light of that truth. You are obviously not aware of that muslims already believe in Jesus. Example from the Quran: " Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith.""
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 22:19:56 GMT
Christianity is not a western religion either. Nor is Judaism.
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