|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 8:00:43 GMT
And by that same token, the idea of physical existents is just as completely absurd. Look at our lives and what we do to ourselves and each other. It's all a naïve projection of mental phenomena, be it external or internal. It's certainly not completely absurd to me, it's rather completely obvious to me. And mental phenomena are physical, which is also completely obvious. People who think otherwise are confused at best. Then you are limiting yourself and not looking at the larger landscape or deeper into the subtle mind and body. Mental phenomena is only a projection of our own realities and it is all illusion. What you perceive as physical, is your own power or creation and none of it is permanent. It is just all a state of meaninglessness.
|
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 8:05:47 GMT
Sorry to quote myself, but the edit function just wasn't working right. I wanted to add, there is NO convincing evidence of a god, the people who believe there is one, believe it because they want to. For whatever reason they want to: to feel better, to feel that they as individuals matter, because they were indoctrinated as children, to gain control over others, because they fear death... It is used for many purposes. Doesn't mean a god actually exists.What does exist is natural law. We see it play out on a daily basis. There is ample evidence. It is why I don't believe in a god in the sense of an entity that put all this into motion. Natural law suffices. There is no personal connection to any one individual. I question why we as humans have evolved with this need to believe in a personal god. And, in the face of so much evidence of how the world really works from science, why do we cling to that need to believe? People don't want to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. A way out of their suffering, is for some other separate entity to deal with it for them. That is a cop out. What they don't understand, is that they are the god force, and the power of creation and everything in our projected realities needs to be accounted for. Masters of our own universe. How else do we acknowledge our own attitude, behaviors\beliefs and contributions here in our lifetime\s, if we don't take on personal onus for what is going on around us?
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 21, 2017 8:18:51 GMT
It's certainly not completely absurd to me, it's rather completely obvious to me. And mental phenomena are physical, which is also completely obvious. People who think otherwise are confused at best. Then you are limiting yourself and not looking at the larger landscape or deeper into the subtle mind and body. Mental phenomena is only a projection of our own realities and it is all illusion. What you perceive as physical, is your own power or creation and none of it is permanent. It is just all a state of meaninglessness. I'm limiting my ontology to what's factually the case, yes. Mental phenomena that are only mental phenomena, such as desires or aesthetic judgments, for example, can't be an illusion, because there's nothing to get wrong. Illusions require that something really is such and such way, but you get it wrong for particular sorts of reasons (which we could detail). Meaning is one example of something that is a mental phenomenon only, and thus it can't be illusory. (Though someone could have the mistaken belief that meaning isn't mental only.) Re perceptual content, I'm a "direct realist." It's worth noting that epistemically, there's no justification for saying that anything is an illusion unless we (a) know how it really is, but (b) know that our perception of it doesn't match how it really is (for the sorts of reasons that normally account for illusions). However, if we know this, then we completely undermine the notion that everything could be an illusion. If we don't know (a) and (b), there is no grounds for saying that anything is an illusion. So "everything is an illusion" is quite nonsensical. Finally, that something is physical in no way implies that it's permanent.
|
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 8:51:56 GMT
Then you are limiting yourself and not looking at the larger landscape or deeper into the subtle mind and body. Mental phenomena is only a projection of our own realities and it is all illusion. What you perceive as physical, is your own power or creation and none of it is permanent. It is just all a state of meaninglessness. I'm limiting my ontology to what's factually the case, yes. Mental phenomena that are only mental phenomena, such as desires or aesthetic judgments, for example, can't be an illusion, because there's nothing to get wrong. Illusions require that something really is such and such way, but you get it wrong for particular sorts of reasons (which we could detail). Meaning is one example of something that is a mental phenomenon only, and thus it can't be illusory. (Though someone could have the mistaken belief that meaning isn't mental only.) Re perceptual content, I'm a "direct realist." It's worth noting that epistemically, there's no justification for saying that anything is an illusion unless we (a) know how it really is, but (b) know that our perception of it doesn't match how it really is (for the sorts of reasons that normally account for illusions). However, if we know this, then we completely undermine the notion that everything could be an illusion. If we don't know (a) and (b), there is no grounds for saying that anything is an illusion. So "everything is an illusion" is quite nonsensical. Finally, that something is physical in no way implies that it's permanent. The illusion is what we project and the perception of it would be different for each individual, due to our ego mindsets. It won't match due to differing beliefs, but the paradox being that is does really match, because it is all complete and one and whole. The reality\illusion of our human existence is all just a dream within a dream. You appear to be intellectualizing something that you want to make real, or even permanent, when that is just your own projection\perception of it. Many want there to be meaning, because the thought of meaninglessness scares them. That is just living in fear. If you don't think about anything, nothing has meaning, because in a sense, it is all nothing, yet at the same time is all something, which is completeness and wholeness. You know that feeling when you are right in the moment and feeling connected.
Ask who's reality\dream is it anyway, yours or mine?
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 21, 2017 10:37:49 GMT
I'm limiting my ontology to what's factually the case, yes. Mental phenomena that are only mental phenomena, such as desires or aesthetic judgments, for example, can't be an illusion, because there's nothing to get wrong. Illusions require that something really is such and such way, but you get it wrong for particular sorts of reasons (which we could detail). Meaning is one example of something that is a mental phenomenon only, and thus it can't be illusory. (Though someone could have the mistaken belief that meaning isn't mental only.) Re perceptual content, I'm a "direct realist." It's worth noting that epistemically, there's no justification for saying that anything is an illusion unless we (a) know how it really is, but (b) know that our perception of it doesn't match how it really is (for the sorts of reasons that normally account for illusions). However, if we know this, then we completely undermine the notion that everything could be an illusion. If we don't know (a) and (b), there is no grounds for saying that anything is an illusion. So "everything is an illusion" is quite nonsensical. Finally, that something is physical in no way implies that it's permanent. The illusion is what we project and the perception of it would be different for each individual, due to our ego mindsets. It won't match due to differing beliefs, but the paradox being that is does really match, because it is all complete and one and whole. The reality\illusion of our human existence is all just a dream within a dream. You appear to be intellectualizing something that you want to make real, or even permanent, when that is just your own projection\perception of it. Many want there to be meaning, because the thought of meaninglessness scares them. That is just living in fear. If you don't think about anything, nothing has meaning, because in a sense, it is all nothing, yet at the same time is all something, which is completeness and wholeness. You know that feeling when you are right in the moment and feeling connected.
Ask who's reality\dream is it anyway, yours or mine?
Let's try it this way: You walk into your kitchen and see your refrigerator. In your view, that experience, including seeing the refrigerator, is an illusion. So here's the question: "How would we know, or why would we believe, that the refrigerator we see is an illusion?" What is your answer to that?
|
|
|
|
Post by NJtoTX on Aug 21, 2017 11:23:22 GMT
This isn't true unless this is just a semantics statement. How is in not true? All beliefs are just thought and where does the thought\thinking exist? It is not real. All thoughts are vengeful in a sense, as they take us out of the moment.
So believing heat-loving gremlins live inside your toaster is true, then?
|
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 11:27:39 GMT
How is in not true? All beliefs are just thought and where does the thought\thinking exist? It is not real. All thoughts are vengeful in a sense, as they take us out of the moment.
So believing heat-loving gremlins live inside your toaster is true, then? Errrrrr! Are you operating from delusion?
|
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 11:48:15 GMT
Let's try it this way: You walk into your kitchen and see your refrigerator. In your view, that experience, including seeing the refrigerator, is an illusion. So here's the question: "How would we know, or why would we believe, that the refrigerator we see is an illusion?" What is your answer to that? Then again, who's dream is the refrigerator, yours or mine? I may not place or hold any belief, or even a judgement on what the refrigerator represents in my life. What I have, is a projected creation of a refrigerator that I have manifested into my life. The elements that comprise it are all part of this world\universe, as is everything within me and around me. It is no different to the tv on my cabinet, or the plants in the garden, or the rocks near the canal, or the water itself. Even the water can reflect what surrounds it. It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind. I am not meaning in a negative sense here when I say ego. It is what the mind "only" thinks is physical or real. When the physical dies, none of it is relevant anymore, only the awakening and actions that were engaged in during this illusionary human life phase.
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 21, 2017 11:53:11 GMT
Let's try it this way: You walk into your kitchen and see your refrigerator. In your view, that experience, including seeing the refrigerator, is an illusion. So here's the question: "How would we know, or why would we believe, that the refrigerator we see is an illusion?" What is your answer to that? Then again, who's dream is the refrigerator, yours or mine? I may not place or hold any belief, or even a judgement on what the refrigerator represents in my life. What I have, is a projected creation of a refrigerator that I have manifested into my life. The elements that comprise it are all part of this world\universe, as is everything within me and around me. It is no different to the tv on my cabinet, or the plants in the garden, or the rocks near the canal, or the water itself. Even the water can reflect what surrounds it. It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind. I am not meaning in a negative sense here when I say ego. It is what the mind "only" thinks is physical or real. When the physical dies, none of it is relevant anymore, only the awakening and actions that were engaged in during this illusionary human life phase. You're further fleshing out your view here, but that's not what I'm asking you to do. I'm asking you how do we know what that view is claiming? "It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind" is your view. I'm asking you " How do we know that the refrigerator is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind"? Or " How do we know that it is a projected creation of a refrigerator that you have manifested into your life"? I'm not asking you to further flesh out your view. I'm familiar with your view, or at least with views very similar to it. I'm asking you to support that it's the case over competing views. How do we know it? In other words, in the sense of why would we believe that? What's the support of it?
|
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Aug 21, 2017 12:08:25 GMT
Then again, who's dream is the refrigerator, yours or mine? I may not place or hold any belief, or even a judgement on what the refrigerator represents in my life. What I have, is a projected creation of a refrigerator that I have manifested into my life. The elements that comprise it are all part of this world\universe, as is everything within me and around me. It is no different to the tv on my cabinet, or the plants in the garden, or the rocks near the canal, or the water itself. Even the water can reflect what surrounds it. It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind. I am not meaning in a negative sense here when I say ego. It is what the mind "only" thinks is physical or real. When the physical dies, none of it is relevant anymore, only the awakening and actions that were engaged in during this illusionary human life phase. You're further fleshing out your view here, but that's not what I'm asking you to do. I'm asking you how do we know what that view is claiming? "It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind" is your view. I'm asking you " How do we know that the refrigerator is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind"? Or " How do we know that it is a projected creation of a refrigerator that you have manifested into your life"? I'm not asking you to further flesh out your view. I'm familiar with your view, or at least with views very similar to it. I'm asking you to support that it's the case over competing views. How do we know it? In other words, in the sense of why would we believe that? What's the support of it? It's about self-awareness. I can only speak from my own truth, or authentic nature of being within that awareness. My truth may not be your truth, and the proof is only in the projected illusion of the life I lead on this plane. I can't support or change anyone else's beliefs or attitudes, as that is their journey. All I can do is contribute and perhaps even inspire within my own being and that goes for every soul on this planet. In other words, the proof is in all our lives within our individual experience and each have to do the work ourselves to realize that what we see as reality, is really all just part of our dream.
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 21, 2017 12:14:56 GMT
You're further fleshing out your view here, but that's not what I'm asking you to do. I'm asking you how do we know what that view is claiming? "It is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind" is your view. I'm asking you " How do we know that the refrigerator is a projected illusion of the power of the ego mind"? Or " How do we know that it is a projected creation of a refrigerator that you have manifested into your life"? I'm not asking you to further flesh out your view. I'm familiar with your view, or at least with views very similar to it. I'm asking you to support that it's the case over competing views. How do we know it? In other words, in the sense of why would we believe that? What's the support of it? It's about self-awareness. I can only speak from my own truth, or authentic nature of being within that awareness. My truth may not be your truth, and the proof is only in the projected illusion of the life I lead on this plane. I can't support or change anyone else's beliefs or attitudes, as that is their journey. All I can do is contribute and perhaps even inspire within my own being and that goes for every soul on this planet. In other words, the proof is in all our lives within our individual experience and each have to do the work ourselves to realize that what we see as reality, is really all just part of our dream. Note that I wasn't asking you for proof of anything, by the way. Proof is a different sort of idea. But okay, it sounds kind of like you're saying that how we know that something is an illusion, why we'd believe that, is because different people experience different things, they disagree with each other, etc.--is that basically it?
|
|
|
|
Post by The Lost One on Aug 21, 2017 12:49:16 GMT
My two cents. There is no objective truth available to humans. Any human who interacts with the world has a subjective view of it. And any human view is not only subjective, but incomplete. Therefore, in order for humans to make sense of the world, they make models. Maybe for some humans, models including deities or other supernatural intelligences make sense. Like gadreel said, to him a universe with an intelligence behind him is a model that he is comfortable with (gadreel, feel free to correct me if this presentation is inaccurate). To me, it doesn't. I tend to be materialist and not believe in supernatural entities. The naturalistic explanations are enough for me. But I don't claim that I know everything about the universe, or that I have found an objective answer. In fact, I believe the religious-philosophical-spiritual outlook of each human on the universe is a bit like choosing a map projection for a world map. There are plenty of them, all of them with advantages or disadvantages. If you want a map that facilitates navigation, choose Mercator. If you want a map that keeps the size and shapes of the landmasses, choose Dymaxion or Authagraph. If you want to just check longitudes and latitudes, choose a cylindrical projection. And so on. And all the map projections have one thing in common: They are incomplete. It is not possible to make an accurate 2D model of a 3D object. Maybe for questions in life, philosophies and religions are like map projections. If you want an outlook where you want to believe that there is higher meaning, or some sort of higher purpose independent of humans, choose a theistic religion. If you believe that life is simply an opportunity to have fun and enjoy it, but has no external purpose, choose an atheistic religion. And no philosophy and religion can claim to be accurate; unless objective truths would be available to humans. The problem arises when some people try to convince others that their model is the best, or even the only possible one. As long as it happens only on message boards, there's no serious problem. Unfortunately, the people in New York, London, Madrid, Berlin, Brussels, Nice, and now Barcelona, know that this is not the case. Speaking of map projections: I don't know if I agree with everything in this comic. But I like it.  Was going to comment but this is pretty much exactly what I would say.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Lost One on Aug 21, 2017 14:15:29 GMT
Re perceptual content, I'm a "direct realist." It's worth noting that epistemically, there's no justification for saying that anything is an illusion unless we (a) know how it really is, but (b) know that our perception of it doesn't match how it really is (for the sorts of reasons that normally account for illusions). However, if we know this, then we completely undermine the notion that everything could be an illusion. If we don't know (a) and (b), there is no grounds for saying that anything is an illusion. So "everything is an illusion" is quite nonsensical. I can see how that is true of "everything is an illusion" but what about the stance of "everything could be an illusion"?
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 21, 2017 14:29:39 GMT
Re perceptual content, I'm a "direct realist." It's worth noting that epistemically, there's no justification for saying that anything is an illusion unless we (a) know how it really is, but (b) know that our perception of it doesn't match how it really is (for the sorts of reasons that normally account for illusions). However, if we know this, then we completely undermine the notion that everything could be an illusion. If we don't know (a) and (b), there is no grounds for saying that anything is an illusion. So "everything is an illusion" is quite nonsensical. I can see how that is true of "everything is an illusion" but what about the stance of "everything could be an illusion"? Well, it still wouldn't make sense to talk about present mental phenomena, qua present mental phenomena, as an illusion, because what we're talking about in that case are appearances as such. The appearances can't be getting something else wrong, because there is nothing else that they're representing. However, it doesn't do anything for the logical possibility that all perceptual data are illusory. But that's all that is--a logical possibility. There's no reason beyond that to believe it. And there are contradictory logical possibilities.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Lost One on Aug 21, 2017 15:19:21 GMT
Well, it still wouldn't make sense to talk about present mental phenomena, qua present mental phenomena, as an illusion, because what we're talking about in that case are appearances as such. The appearances can't be getting something else wrong, because there is nothing else that they're representing. However, it doesn't do anything for the logical possibility that all perceptual data are illusory. But that's all that is--a logical possibility. There's no reason beyond that to believe it. And there are contradictory logical possibilities. Yes, I would agree with all of that.
|
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 21, 2017 15:51:45 GMT
Sorry to quote myself, but the edit function just wasn't working right. I wanted to add, there is NO convincing evidence of a god, the people who believe there is one, believe it because they want to. For whatever reason they want to: to feel better, to feel that they as individuals matter, because they were indoctrinated as children, to gain control over others, because they fear death... It is used for many purposes. Doesn't mean a god actually exists.What does exist is natural law. We see it play out on a daily basis. There is ample evidence. It is why I don't believe in a god in the sense of an entity that put all this into motion. Natural law suffices. There is no personal connection to any one individual. I question why we as humans have evolved with this need to believe in a personal god. And, in the face of so much evidence of how the world really works from science, why do we cling to that need to believe? People don't want to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. A way out of their suffering, is for some other separate entity to deal with it for them. That is a cop out. What they don't understand, is that they are the god force, and the power of creation and everything in our projected realities needs to be accounted for. Masters of our own universe. How else do we acknowledge our own attitude, behaviors\beliefs and contributions here in our lifetime\s, if we don't take on personal onus for what is going on around us? Excellent point!
|
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Aug 21, 2017 18:17:25 GMT
tpfkar Yes, I would agree with all of that. Breathe deep the gathering gloom Watch lights fade from every room. Bedsitter people look back and lament Another day's useless energy spent. Impassioned lovers wrestle as one Lonely man cries for love and has none. New mother picks up and suckles her son Senior citizens wish they were young. Cold hearted orb that rules the night Removes the colours from our sight. Red is grey and yellow white. But we decide which is right. And which is an illusion? Dark of the Moon
|
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Aug 21, 2017 18:26:13 GMT
Again it's not a matter of explaining it better, I accept science and use it in all endeavours, there is nothing that I need to explain with a belief in an intelligent creator. I don't know how much you know about Jewish philosophy but they hold God as Unknowable, that is to say all we know of God is the effect that the entity has on the universe. At some point we (you and I) will both agree that we do not know how the universe was created (not implying creation by an entity just it beginning of existence, just the only word I can think of there), and we have to make a leap of decision, was it intentional by an intelligence or was it random by some natural force. For me it makes more sense given the other metaphysical theories I follow that I treat that force as intelligent. Honestly in terms of metaphysics it makes no day to day difference to me, and I imagine that I live my life in a very similar way to you, at the point that the question comes into play it really is just an intellectual exercise. I'm asking, in what way does it make more sense that intelligence was involved, when everything else we see has a perfectly natural cause? In what way do you look at existence and think that it makes more sense that intelligence was involved?
I'm trying to get a grasp on your perspective.
Again I need to be clear, because I think we are going into the truth claim thing again or the evidence based model. I am not making a truth claim, nor am I suggesting that anything currently held by science is incorrect. I hold that an intelligence fits my metaphysical model better than random chance would. So I am not making a truth claim, I am saying that the model I have in my head of how the universe interact and how it came to be works best if the source is treated as if it was intelligent, this is an important distinction, treated as if. Like I say I am not making a truth claim, just talking about my model of the universe.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Aug 21, 2017 18:31:59 GMT
Again I need to be clear, because I think we are going into the truth claim thing again or the evidence based model. I am not making a truth claim, nor am I suggesting that anything currently held by science is incorrect. I hold that an intelligence fits my metaphysical model better than random chance would. So I am not making a truth claim, I am saying that the model I have in my head of how the universe interact and how it came to be works best if the source is treated as if it was intelligent, this is an important distinction, treated as if. Like I say I am not making a truth claim, just talking about my model of the universe. Yes, I understand, I'm asking how an intelligence better fits.
Also I'm always curious when people use the term random chance, and what they mean by that. Is a cloud forming "random chance"? Is the path of a river "random chance"?
I'm assuming you don't think an intelligence better fits those events, so why does an intelligence better fit the universe at large? Or life, or anything else?
I honestly don't know what you mean by random chance. When people say that, it seems like they are referring to the processes of physics or chemistry, and I wouldn't call those processes random. So I just want to clarify.
|
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Aug 21, 2017 18:52:34 GMT
Again I need to be clear, because I think we are going into the truth claim thing again or the evidence based model. I am not making a truth claim, nor am I suggesting that anything currently held by science is incorrect. I hold that an intelligence fits my metaphysical model better than random chance would. So I am not making a truth claim, I am saying that the model I have in my head of how the universe interact and how it came to be works best if the source is treated as if it was intelligent, this is an important distinction, treated as if. Like I say I am not making a truth claim, just talking about my model of the universe. Yes, I understand, I'm asking how an intelligence better fits.
Also I'm always curious when people use the term random chance, and what they mean by that. Is a cloud forming "random chance"? Is the path of a river "random chance"?
I'm assuming you don't think an intelligence better fits those events, so why does an intelligence better fit the universe at large? Or life, or anything else?
I honestly don't know what you mean by random chance. When people say that, it seems like they are referring to the processes of physics or chemistry, and I wouldn't call those processes random. So I just want to clarify.
You are of course correct, random chance is a terrible word, natural processes I suppose in all the instances you are talking about, and I would say that if an intelligence fits the creation of the universe then technically all those natural processes are the end result of intelligence, but I see the point you are making and i agree. I think that an intelligence fitting is simply personal preference, my metaphysical model is influenced by the tree of life diagram in jewish philosophy and that is based on emotive forces (strength, love etc), in keeping with that interpreting the universe in an emotional/mental light fits the model. Again I need to stress this is not a truth claim, but an interpretive choice.
|
|