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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 0:23:23 GMT
... is the general understanding and meaning?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 0:25:45 GMT
"nothing is true, everything is permissible." -Hassan i Sabbah
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Post by OldSamVimes on Mar 1, 2017 0:40:55 GMT
We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception.
-Alan Watts
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Post by awhina on Mar 1, 2017 0:42:31 GMT
There should be a don't know option.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 0:45:13 GMT
... is the general understanding and meaning? Who's "bent out of shape, now? Kidding.... I'm not a pussy who thinks that somebody starting a new thread mean that they're bent out of shape... (You should try that sometime) Here's the actual dictionary: Please show me exactly where it says that "All faith must not be based on evidence"?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 0:52:06 GMT
... is the general understanding and meaning? Who's "bent out of shape, now? Kidding.... I'm not a pussy who thinks that somebody starting a new thread mean that they're bent out of shape... (You should try that sometime) Here's the actual dictionary:
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Post by Cinemachinery on Mar 1, 2017 1:38:57 GMT
This is every Rape-Tum-Tugger argument, ever.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 1, 2017 2:46:40 GMT
Hebrews 11:1 works for me.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 4:54:51 GMT
This is every Rape-Tum-Tugger argument, ever. Blow me, ass-wipe. This is every Cine post: No point.... Meaningless insult. But, it does give him that daily allowance of Vitamin C unt
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 8:22:14 GMT
No, it just seems to be confidence based on past events and accumulated evidence. Faith is when you believe something despite weak evidence, not having confidence in a given outcome given the evidence amassed from previous results. Vegas Devil seems to want to talk himself into believing in God again, it seems, despite stressing the fact that his thread was not about belief in God.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 9:17:23 GMT
Faith is when you believe something despite weak evidence, not having confidence in a given outcome given the evidence amassed from previous results. Once again.. HERE IS THE FCKING DEFINITION: How much is there about it being "despite weak evidence" At anywhere in there is that the main quality that the entire definition rest? Looks like your shit outta luck. Here. Try this one: Damn... You're really fcked with that one... Hint: The sht in red contradicts what you say... Funny... Ain't it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 9:27:01 GMT
Faith is when you believe something despite weak evidence, not having confidence in a given outcome given the evidence amassed from previous results. Once again.. HERE IS THE FCKING DEFINITION: How much is there about it being "despite weak evidence" At anywhere in there is that the main quality that the entire definition rest? Looks like your shit outta luck. Here. Try this one: Damn... You're really fcked with that one... Hint: The sht in red contradicts what you say... Funny... Ain't it? Your way of understanding it isn't the way that would normally be understood in the context of a 'Religion, Faith and Spirituality' forum. And if all you meant was 'confidence based on amassed evidence', I don't really understand the point of the thread, unless it was to induce atheists into thinking that a different kind of faith (that which is based on no evidence) can be rational. Since it is your MO to be an apologist for religious faith (perhaps because you want to find your way back to religion yourself), I don't think that the majority of us can be blamed for our objection to the way that you were using the word "faith".
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 9:31:37 GMT
No, it just seems to be confidence based on past events and accumulated evidence. And just for the record... That's not my argument: My definition is simply "confidence, or trust, in anything".... It has nothing to do with why you have it. It could be based on evidence. It could just be dumb blind faith based on nothing. Hell.. It could just be based on mental illness. My stance is that the first one does exist... not that it is the only way that it exists. ... That's all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 9:33:17 GMT
No, it just seems to be confidence based on past events and accumulated evidence. And just for the record... That's not my argument: My definition is simply "confidence, or trust, in anything".... It has nothing to do with why you have it. It could be based on evidence. It could just be dumb blind faith based on nothing. Hell.. It could just be based on mental illness. My stance is that the first one does exist... not that it is the only way that it exists. ... That's all. Well how does any of this fit into a forum on religion, faith and spirituality. It seems that if we are defining faith as "confidence based on strong evidence", then it's a truism that faith can be rational. But then we haven't really learned anything, and certainly not anything relevant to religion or spirituality.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 9:40:02 GMT
I just mean "confidence"....PERIOD. That's where "my understanding" ends. My original OP stated that I wasn't dealing with "religious" faith.. but, faith in anything.. The broad sense of the word. It was started to counter the argument that faith - IN ANY CONTEXT - can not be based on anything... That it HAD to be bilnd faith... and no other kind exists.
I'm using the dictionary's definition of the word.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 9:48:10 GMT
My original OP stated that I wasn't dealing with "religious" faith.. but, faith in anything.. The broad sense of the word. I didn't miss that part. I understand that, but on this forum and the Religion, Faith and Spirituality forum on IMDb, we would usually be discussing faith in the religious sense. And that type of faith is always basically blind faith. I'm sure most of us don't really care whether faith can also be accurately applied to circumstances where there is an abundance of prior evidence to support one's confidence, because it isn't relevant to what we usually discuss on this forum.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 9:53:46 GMT
Dude... We discuss all sortsa sht on this board that isn't specifically about religion. This is just about the use of a word in the "not specifically about religion" sense of the word. Apparently... YOU GUYS FCKING DO.
For the record: That's pretty much all I said that kicked off this whole fiasco.
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Post by Arlon10 on Mar 1, 2017 10:17:32 GMT
... is the general understanding and meaning? Do you mean that in order to be "faith" there must be no evidence at all, zero? No, that is not a prerequisite. If that's what Vegas is saying then he is right. On the other hand if something is absolutely and certainly proved for all time to some person the expression "faith" of that person can be awkward, but not "incorrect." Furthermore, in real life there are few things that are absolutely and certainly proved for all time. The few things that might be certain lack any significant details. In actual practice the definition used by Vegas is suitable. It is also common. For example if asked, "Do you believe Donald Trump won the election?," most people would just say yes, although it's obviously more than just a belief, it still is a belief. The man gave the State of the Union Address. Of course the terms "faith" and "belief" are not identical. They can be interchangeable in some contexts, but not others. The term belief can refer to good or bad things. You buy a fire extinguisher because you believe a bad thing might happen. The term "faith" only refers to good things, or things that are good on the whole. This is, the good outweighs the bad. There is also a good Allan Watts quote on this thread about the difference between belief and faith.
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Post by Vegas on Mar 1, 2017 10:55:04 GMT
That's pretty much what I am arguing against...
That's pretty much my entire argument.
Then click "yes".
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Post by Arlon10 on Mar 1, 2017 11:12:44 GMT
First of all no, it should not be assumed that religious faith is "basically" blind. It might usually start out more blind than not, but then it can progress with experiences and education. Then maybe you should consider opening up your discussion.
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